Non-combat applications/corporate realm

[Luo Lang]

Dear Brother Piti,
Your information is truly inspiring.

Looking forward to read more of you

Roland

[parrapiti]

Thanks Roland. Here is some more that I just thought of.. Hope you like it:

As we all know, there is a big difference between written theory and
experience gained trough practice. One can read all of Sifu Wong’s books on Internal Martial Arts, Shaolin, and Zen..., and still have no combat efficiency, poor health, lack of vitality and no concept of chi flow... As he usually advices, his books are meant to open one’s mind to find a good master or certified instructor to learn and practice and then his written words gain new meaning, validity and application.

The same goes for most things, but it is especially "tricky" when one reads anything written metaphorically, or as in this case, as a link between two different worlds - Wahnam Taijiquan and Corporate Negotiations. I do not compare to Sifu in any way, I am not a master of any kind, and I am not implying that I am teaching or recommending masters or instructors myself, but I wanted to write a short disclaimer about the implied techniques and skills that appear on this thread. The basic idea here is to try to link the practice of Wahnam Taijiquan and Shaolin Chi Kung with the skills that are required to negotiate effectively and share thoughts, perspectives and experiences among people who are involved in both of these worlds, but this is definitely not a manual to acquire techniques and skills.

Having said so, here is another connection that I found useful during this last workshop:

When practicing Wahnam Taijiquan, our School always puts safety first. Our training focuses a lot on the concept of correct spacing and appropriate use of force. When we are pushing hands or striking hands, or free sparring we neither hit each other with full force nor make full contact at dangerous spots of the body. We simply “mark a victory” with a gentle tap, so both opponents realize that in actual combat that opening could have been highly dangerous and even lethal. Sometimes, in demos, instructors usually show how correct spacing allows one to make contact, penetrate or go through the opponent’s body.

These principles have deep meaning in the “art of negotiating”:

We usually use our words to convey our thoughts through rational arguments. The Modern Western World uses language mainly to this level. But words are “perceivable energy”. The more we understand this concept the better we can use said energy. We can use the energy of our words to “touch, penetrate or go through” our counterpart at a negotiation. The response we’ll get will depend on the depth of that “strike” and the force applied to it. In order to reach the Tension Threshold (see other entries on this thread…) one needs to learn to adjust this. This is not done through more volume or the use of aggressive language, but through “energy management”. As in the practice of Internal Martial Arts this is a matter of intention (mind, heart…); it is intention that manages energy. When we train Internal Martial Arts, such as Wahnam Taijiquan, we develop the skill to generate and manage Internal Force. This Internal Force (Energy) is usually applied in combat, but can also be trained to be used as “adjustable - perceivable energy” through our words. Once we learn this skill, we can “energetically” move ourselves and our counterpart to the most beneficial level of the interaction, and then, once there, we can present our rational arguments, making the most out of them.

Enjoy!

Piti Parra Duque

[uki]

It's been a while since I've seen any mountains (none in Florida). Please say hi to them for me, Piti.

perhaps you need a vacation, the mountains teach a many great things.

[diego parra]

Yielding...looks simple, it's difficult..

Dear Piti:

Thanks for adding more and more interesting concepts and experiences to this very valuable thread. One of the most important learnings about all this methaphor posted by you (an analogy between negotiation and taijiquan) is for me the very simple and profound "art of yielding". Yielding may look as something very simple, but takes a lot of accuracy. When the opponent "attacks" it takes a lot of sensing to know precisely "how much of his attack will be enough and yet not dangerous"....Yielding takes also a lot of practice in internal force: when I fought against Rama, I noticed that he could swallow my atacks without any fear, simply because his work in internal force gathering throughout the years -one can notice it when he swallows- is rather impressive. So, as a base for negotiating, yielding will take also the ability to "feel atacks" of the counterpart without being scared. In our aggressive latinamerican culture, to stay calm after an attack, to not react at the first impulse sounds very simple, but is also a skill that will come with our own spiritual cultivation throughout the years...

Hope to hear more of you !!!

Diego./

[Sifu Rama]

Thanks Piti

Thanks from the heart for leading such a good thread. Thanks also to Diego, Barry, Sunyata and all other members for their inspiring comments.

The subject itself and the way is treated is among the best of the Discussion Forum and has a great potential to continue a beautiful development.

I wish to have the possibility to share this Forum very soon even if Internet is not simple at the present time for me. By now I'm printing the threads and get inspiration from all of you.

The subject is deep and very interesting; hopefully will last for long time.

In touch,
Rama

[Chiahua]

We usually use our words to convey our thoughts through rational arguments. The Modern Western World uses language mainly to this level. But words are “perceivable energy”.......This is not done through more volume or the use of aggressive language, but through “energy management”. ... it is intention that manages energy. ... This Internal Force (Energy) is usually applied in combat, but can also be trained to be used as “adjustable - perceivable energy” through our words.

Some very intriguing thoughts in this last post. I can understand the idea of using words to convey thoughts through rational arguments-- if we use words literally without consideration to the psychological effect, that would be like "getting stuck at the level of form". I'm less clear on the energy behind the words. When you say it's not through more volume or use of aggressive language, is the energy conveyed through something other than the delivery? We all know that when you speak face to face, you are communicating only partially through the words we speak--there are gestures, body language, tone of voice that almost communicate more than the words themselves. There must also be some "energetics of language" when the words are merely written. I've seen on this forum examples where the energy may have been misread or improperly applied.... I can't point to specifics, but it's easy to find--just looking at the more "heated" debates should provide some examples. I don't want to think too much about this because I'll end up confusing myself , so could there be some further explanation on this? Thank you for a great thread,
Chia-Hua

[barrys]

This is a really interesting area and one I have only recently been aware of using.

In some recent lectures I gave to MSc students on The Self in western psychology/psychotherapy I had to cover a whole load of theory. At one level I was giving them an overview of the way practitioners have tried to theorise on what a self is, how it comes into being and the kinds of problems that can arise. Now there are many, many theories from many perspectives - psychodynamic, humanistic, reflexive, experiential, self as agency etc, etc. And in each one of those areas there are different views. So, at one level I was giving them "intellectual" information. At another level I wanted to help them to experience themselves through the material and the way it was delivered. Now I had an intention to do that and my own direct experience related to many of the theories. During the two lectures on this subject the whole class went through a range of emotions, physiological reactions, personal insights, actions - it was a full-on experience for all concerned. Now if you read the lecture notes it was pretty dry. I am not really sure how but in the face to face delivery there was something else going on. In the description of the human's struggle/need for identity and the various forms and functions involved there was an experience of it - I think.

Now I could sit here and wonder how that happened. However, I do take to heart the wonderful words Sifu said to me on my first course with him - "Don't ask how just do it". I had an intention which was carried out.

I had an experience today of the same thing happening the other way. I went to two days of lectures by a wonderful scientist and therapist called Alan Schore on "The science of the art of psychotherapy". He is a New Yorker and spent two days tallking at New York speeds about very recent developments in the understanding of neuroscience, its implications for the understanding of being human and the implications for working as a therapist. At one level there was a lot of information flying around. It was an audience of experienced therapists but even they (and me) were having quite weird experiences - which were kind of related to the clinical material. At the end of the two days he said he had hoped we had had both a right hemisphere to right hemisphere as well as a left to left hemisphere experience as that had been his intention. He definitely succeeded but I am not anyone could have put there finger of what had occurred. Some kind of heart to heart communication.

By the way I made the startling discovery today that I am not, repeat not, an alien but am in fact part of the human race. And in case anyone wonders - yes there was some doubt in my mind.

Greeting fellow humans,

Barry

[Chiahua]

Hello Barry, when I read your comment, it reminded me of this other thread:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2427

Just highlighting the idea that sometimes in the right state of mind you are absorbing much more than you realize.

[barrys]

You have amazing recall

[Juan Parra]

What about this ?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=645

[parrapiti]

Wow, Papalo, great find!
Too bad Mr. Miller is offering health classes to his employees and keeping the internal nartial arts to himself... (Eugene - there is an interesting "opening" for you...).

Here is another link between the essence of internal martial arts (especially Wahnam Taijiquan) and the art of negotiation:

“To get the best results from any Tai Chi Chuan set, you must understand its energy and mind aspects so that your poetry in motion is imbued with internal force and consciousness.”

(Chapter 7 - The Poetry of Energy and Mind – The Complete Book of Tai Chi Chuan, Wong Kiew Kit.)

Several authors/trainers have developed a high quantity of tools, methods, techniques, to improve the “form” in a negotiation. Roger Dawson, for example, calls them “Secrets of Power Negotiating” and these include his famous “Negotiating Gambits” or maneuvers for advantage(http://rdawson.com). A negotiator that has been trained in these concepts will have a better form and therefore an advantage against a non-trained counterpart. Dr. Robert B. Cialdini (www.influenceatwork.com) has gone deeper into his research and has touched aspects of “energy” with his “6 Universal Principles” of persuasive psychology, and Dr. Ed Brodow (www.brodow.com) has touched the “mind” concept of clear intention with his “Three Rules for Win-Win Negotiating”. People who incorporate the energy and mind aspects into their negotiation skills will be in great advantage even against a skillful “technical” or “form” negotiator. But someone who understands the principles of Jing, Chi and Shen through direct experience and disciplined practice will be able to combine this knowledge and skills with those of the classical negotiations and be the most powerful yet gentle negotiator, because his/her interactions will be “imbued with internal force and consciousness”. The poetry of energy and mind will be easily transferable to any of his/her daily actions. That is the essence of the art of negotiating – consciously generating meaningful interactions of energy to create maximum results for the maximum parts involved.

This is getting more and more interesting, guys. I am looking forward to reading more comments and other perspectives on these issues,

Piti Parra Duque

[Chiahua]

You have amazing recall

Naw, just a troll

[drunken boxer]

I have been really enjoying this thread, but wasn't going to post as I thought it better to just listen to the more experienced people.
However I was having a discussion with a couple of senior wahnam brothers and sisters who encouraged me to post here (you know who you are!)

Some background, I work as a software developer/programmer.
I had hoped this would involve being left alone for weeks to work on a computer, but unfortunately it also involves much dealing with colleagues and customers in meetings!
The customer meetings can involve arguing over problems with the software - mainly over whether they specified it wrongly (in which case they pay for fixing it), or we programmed it wrongly (in which case we pay).

I think I use taijiquan principles at work in at least the following ways:

1. Relax and Focus
When I am at a meeting I now try to be focused but relaxed. Whereas a couple of years ago I would be focused but angry and aggressive! This I think is a natural result of taijiquan training more than a conscious decision.

2. Sparring as Partners for Mutual Benefit
I now look at my encounters with colleagues and clients like Wahnam sparring as opposed to boxing sparring. So beforehand I used to see these meetings as battles, and the other participants as enemies - my role was to beat my enemies.
Now I look at them as partners, and the meeting as an exercise we can both gain from - we both want the same thing really, to do a good job and create a good computer system.

3. Stick
This ties in with the last one. Many of my colleagues are always at loggerheads with each other and the clients. As a result people always resist their efforts to push them in certain directions.
They phone each other up and have arguments, shouting etc.
I find it better to spend at least some time listening to the other person, maybe go and have a coffee with them and show that you are on their side.
Then they are more likely to trust you and move in the direction you want them to.
This sounds manipulative but for me it is a natural desire to want to get on well with people. It just happens that being 'nice' can sometimes help to achieve results!

4. Yield/Use Their Force Against Them
One of my personal favourites for when the meetings de-generate from the higher ideals expressed above!
I often go to meetings with certain individuals and just let them talk rather than argue with them.
They generally do a better job of incriminating themselves than I ever could!
All I have to do is tear apart their answer, or sometimes just give a knowing smile to my boss or their boss who has seen my side of the argument without me even giving it, job done!
We have also seen this tactic on the forum where outsiders have been asked for instance to tell us what they mean by chi flow – their answers usually show they don’t understand it in the way that we do. Whereas if we tell them what it is first – they often just agree.

5. If all else fails...
Palm strike to the solar plexus Only joking I'd never use this on a client... only on my boss (Again joking!)

Hope this was useful/interesting to some people, and hope it wasn’t boring!
I’d like to salute and congratulate my Latin American Sihengs for their endeavours in helping people apply taijiquan in business.

[Chiahua]

5. If all else fails...
Palm strike to the solar plexus Only joking I'd never use this on a client... only on my boss (Again joking!)

Because you'd actually be using monkey steals peaches right ?
Great examples all round. I have to say that hearing these high level and sometimes confrontational meetings makes me glad I'm in academia. All I have to do for my lab meetings is smile from the heart and get into a qigong state of mind while my coworkers ramble on about administrivia!

[parrapiti]

Great stuff Drunken Boxer!

You wrote: "I have been really enjoying this thread, but wasn't going to post as I thought it better to just listen to the more experienced people. However I was having a discussion with a couple of senior wahnam brothers and sisters who encouraged me to post here..."

Most of us are no experts. We are just Amateurs (those who love...) who share the passion for the Shaolin Arts and their applications. I hope a lot of "readers" follow your example and join this and other threads with their insights and perspectives (on this thread alone 1057 have read it and only 43 have shared opinions, perspectives, additions...).

Thank you.

Piti Parra Duque