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One must keep in mind that even if he/she trains in a complete style, that does not make him/her a complete martial artist. One must not become complacent in his/her training, thinking that just practicing a complete art is enough. One must continue to improve his/her own skills within a complete style. Luckily for us in Shaolin Wahnam, this is also very fun to do!
However, it is inaccurate to say no complete styles exist, when you really mean, no complete martial artist exists.
The art is allways as perfect as its practitioner.....
I have been following this thread with interest and I had my thoughts about certain points. Now I have derived three questions from my thoughts, that I would like to provide you with. I will hold my own awnsers back for the moment and would like to see what awnsers you get....
What did martial artists of old train to better survive on the battleground and what would a martial artist of the present train to get of the battleground successfully? What changed, what didn't?
Where are the battlegrounds of the present for roughly 80% or more of the people nowadays?
What do we actually gain when we train a "complete" system? And how do we gain it?
I'm really looking foreward to hear some good awnsers
Pat
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.
1. What did martial artists of old train to better survive on the battleground and what would a martial artist of the present train to get of the battleground successfully? What changed, what didn't?
For martial artists of old and new, simple things really like having good spacing and timing, clarity of mind, speed, internal force, golden bell to withstand blows, skills in techniques to overcome different combat situations, weapons and counters to weapons, the list could go on but I think you get the idea! I don’t really think much has changed for the modern martial artist, even one training to fight successfully on the modern battlefield, as the principles are the same even though some adaptation is necessary. But adaptation is something integral to a complete martial art, or else it is not complete right?
3. What do we actually gain when we train a "complete" system? And how do we gain it?
If you are talking strictly from a combat perspective, we gain the confidence and ability to defend ourselves in most situations where we are required to, to protect our loved ones, the innocent and to uphold righteousness. We attain this through dedicated practice in the given art, with techniques taught by a competent teacher over an extended period of time.
However if you are talking about what we gain from a high level art/system such as Shaolin or Tai Chi Chuan, then more important than self defence we also gain spiritual fulfilment as well as good health and longevity. We gain these through the dedicated practice of meditation and Chi Kung, again having been taught by a high level and high quality master.
I'm sure there is much that can be added to this, and like you Pat I look forward to the replies!
I have a question for you all myself actually, as I am interested as to others answers. What makes a martial art complete?
Phil
Last edited by Shaolinfist; 2 March 2010, 02:31 PM.
since I hear the word complete used alot I like to ask the Wahnam members how do they define the word complete as it relates to Shaolin Wahnam kung Fu??
My self would define a complete MA system as one that is perfect in everyway. a system that could not be improved.A system that Nothing could be added or taken away. A system that remains the same throught time and does not change.As a complete system does not need to change
Essentially, we can view this on the technique level. For every attack there is a response. For every move by the opponent, there is a counter move in our complete system. An incomplete martial art has no good answer against some or many attacks. Why? Because they were developed for sport, or with a kind of rule system in mind. Chinese Kung Fu was adapted for over 1000 years with real fighting situations in mind. Techniques that didn't work so well were discarded because they resulted in serious injury or death. The repertoire that survives today is the best of the best. Masters fought through turmoil, challenges, battles, and friendly sparring with colleagues to produce the current system of Chinese Kung Fu. It is very practical. Was Shaolin Kung Fu a complete martial art during the Tang Dynasty? Yes. Was it a complete martial art during the Ming dynasty? Yes. Is it complete now? Yes. Although some variations would be noticed looking at practitioners from these 3 times, the system at all three times is complete.
In general, techniques can be divided into 4 groups:
Strikes
Kicks
Throws
Qin-Na
A Jujitsu exponent grabs and tries to break the arm of a Xinyiquan Master. The Xinyiquan Master responds with a certain technique from his repertoire and counters effectively. The same Jujitsu exponent tries to break the arm of a Wing Choon Master in the same exact way. The Wing Choon Master uses a technique from his repertoire, a different one than the Xinyiquan Master, but the the JuJitsu exponent is neutralized effectively again. Both Masters are superb fighters. They will respond excellently to any attack. Sometimes they may actually use the same technique against a certain attack, because after all their arts come from Shaolin. They utilize the strengths of their specialization to their best benefit.
This is what is meant by complete: Able to respond effectively to any attack.
Taijiquan has less techniques than Shaolinquan, but it is still complete because it can counter any attack(strike, kick, throw, or qin-na).
A very interesting topic
Mark
Last edited by Mark Blohm; 3 March 2010, 03:35 AM.
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
I've found this selection from Grandmaster Wong's excellent Question and Answer Series:
Question 7
Would you advocate a practitioner of the martial arts to practice different styles simultaneously, or even styles from different cultures, say Jujitsu and Wing Chun?
Paul, Singapore
Answer 7
Firstly I would like to say that I prefer to give honest answers even though they may not be pleasant-sounding to some people. The answers are my views; of course other people of other styles may have very different views.
Whether a martial art practitioner should practice different styles simultaneously will depend on various factors, especially on the styles involved and the practitioner's objectives. If the styles are incomplete by themselves, and if the practitioner wishes to be an effective fighter, he should cross-train, i.e. practice different styles, simultaneously or one style after another. Except for Chinese kungfu, most non-Chinese martial arts are incomplete.
I do not mean to be disrespectful to martial artists of other styles when I say their styles are incomplete; I just want to state my views honestly. Actually I generally have more respect for martial artists of other styles than for kungfu practitioners who forget their own roots and borrow or "steal" the sparring techniques of other sytles yet defiantly claim that their kungfu is combat efficient.
By saying that a style is incomplete I mean that there are certain categories of attacks practitioners of that style would be unable to defend if they do not draw upon techniques from other styles. For example, by depending on the techniques of their own style, a Karate exponent would have no counters against Judo throws, a Judo exponent would have no counters against Taekwondo kicks, and a Taekwondo exponent would have no counters against Aikido locks. Hence it is a common practice amongst serious martial artists of these styles to cross-train, although many of them may not admit that it is due to the incompleteness of their art.
But if the main objective of a practitioner is to win competitions in his chosen style, he should not cross-train even though his style is incomplete because cross-training may make it difficult for him to win by rules. For example, if a Taekwondo exponent learns Aikido locks and applies them on his opponent in a Taekwondo sparring competition, he would be disqualified although he could defeat his opponent in real combat.
On the other hand, if the style is complete, such as Jujitsu, the practitioner should not train another style. I do not mean to be bias but all kungfu styles are complete. They just have to be because all kungfu styles were developed for real fighting, and not for sports like many modern martial arts such as Judo and Kick-Boxing are. If they were incomplete, they would not survive till today.
Some kungfu styles, mainly because of technical and tactical considerations, may not use certain categories of attack frequently, but they are still complete. For example, a Wing Choon practitioner may not use locks and throws frequently. This was because the founder, Yim Wing Choon, was an elegant woman, and using locks and throws which may be favorable for someone with muscular strength and size, would be technically and tactically disadvnatageous to her. But if opponents attack a Wing Choon practitioner with locks and throws or with any other forms of attack, he would be able to counter effectively.
However, although there is vast potential in all kungfu styles for combat, most kungfu practitioners today are ignorant of and lack the skills in the application of kungfu for combat. Hence, although all kungfu styles are complete, today many kungfu practitioners, including masters, feel the need to learn other martial arts to supplement what they mistakenly thought was lacking in kungfu. You may not like to read it, but Bruce Lee was one such example. Nevertheless, you would be pleased to know that personally I have great respect for Bruce Lee though I disagree greatly with his philosophy as well as methodology.
My opinion is that if one needs to cross train, either he has not gone deep enough in his art, or his art is not deep.
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
Two very nice posts Mark Sisuk, thank you, and thank you for sharing Sigungs words.
Now this discussion was mostly led on the technical level, I'd like to bring it to an other for a moment.
What did martial artists of old train to better survive on the battleground and what would a martial artist of the present train to get of the battleground successfully? What changed, what didn't?
Martial artists of old of course trained patterns, techniques, sets, forms etc. of their martial art and through this training they would develop skills, certain skills which were and are essential in coming out of the battlefield (whatsoever) in a good condition. Lets take for instance the skill of right timing and spacing, this is not only essential to aply a punch or a kick, at a certain level it can also help you be at the right place at the right time. Combined with the skill of instant decision and the three internal and the three external arrivals etc., I think skills will bring you halfway out of any "tricky" situation.
Now for thr modern battlefield Kung Fu techniques may not be of very much need, but the developed skills may be very helpfull. Timing and spacing may help you aming with your gun, a clear mind may help you take the right decision at the appropriate time and so on.
What I want to say is that I belive that the circumstances have changed vastly but not the skills needed to cope with them.
Where are the battlegrounds of the present for roughly 80% or more of the people nowadays?
The streets I would imagine, or if you mean on a deeper level it could be within themselves!
Thats exactly what I thought
Most people nowadays will not find themselves in a face to face fight with an opponent other than the circumstances of their lives or themselves and if they do it will likely be some of those blokes learning some Kickboxing or MMA and then run around the streets to randomly pick someone they can beat up for fun....At such occasions traditional Chinese Kung Fu or any other "complete" art with the developed skills could still! be very helpfull.
What do we actually gain when we train a "complete" system? And how do we gain it?
We gain skills, skills not only to fight, but to handle our entire lives, and how do we gain it? we gain those skills in following the instructions of the past Masters as they followed the instructions of the past past Masters back to ancient times.
This of course is put a little simple, but more or less thats what I belive.
When I attained the second regional course with Sigung, we were thaught the 4 abridget sequences, which contain all basic patterns against all imaginable basic attacks. Within three days we were thought to free sparr using the patterns of these sequences through methodological teaching. Most of us were at the end of the course more or less able to free spar. Now comes the clue; after that course I realised that I was not only able to free spar, but I was also able to go through any situation of live without thinking about it, I was just instantly deciding what to do and did it. I hardly failed.....
That umongst others is what makes a art complete in my eyes.
Some more to say no time left have to work again
Pat
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.
I would also like to thank our guest, Sifu Michael, whose post originally initiated this discussion (and Phil for branching out the discussion).
Many of us have heard and read Sigung's words on this (and other topics) but discussions like these help us expand our understanding of them (well, they help me anyway ).
I would also like to thank our guest, Sifu Michael, whose post originally initiated this discussion
I would also like to thank Sifu Mc Ilwrath for his part in initiating this discussion, George for creating the topic, and Mark, Pat and Matt for adding to the discssion. I respect all of your input and as did George, have enjoyed deepening my knowledge and understanding as a result.
Essentially, we can view this on the technique level. For every attack there is a response. For every move by the opponent, there is a counter move in our complete system. An incomplete martial art has no good answer against some or many attacks. Why? Because they were developed for sport, or with a kind of rule system in mind. Chinese Kung Fu was adapted for over 1000 years with real fighting situations in mind. Techniques that didn't work so well were discarded because they resulted in serious injury or death. The repertoire that survives today is the best of the best. Masters fought through turmoil, challenges, battles, and friendly sparring with colleagues to produce the current system of Chinese Kung Fu. It is very practical. Was Shaolin Kung Fu a complete martial art during the Tang Dynasty? Yes. Was it a complete martial art during the Ming dynasty? Yes. Is it complete now? Yes. Although some variations would be noticed looking at practitioners from these 3 times, the system at all three times is complete.
In general, techniques can be divided into 4 groups:
Strikes
Kicks
Throws
Qin-Na
A Jujitsu exponent grabs and tries to break the arm of a Xinyiquan Master. The Xinyiquan Master responds with a certain technique from his repertoire and counters effectively. The same Jujitsu exponent tries to break the arm of a Wing Choon Master in the same exact way. The Wing Choon Master uses a technique from his repertoire, a different one than the Xinyiquan Master, but the the JuJitsu exponent is neutralized effectively again. Both Masters are superb fighters. They will respond excellently to any attack. Sometimes they may actually use the same technique against a certain attack, because after all their arts come from Shaolin. They utilize the strengths of their specialization to their best benefit.
This is what is meant by complete: Able to respond effectively to any attack.
Taijiquan has less techniques than Shaolinquan, but it is still complete because it can counter any attack(strike, kick, throw, or qin-na).
A very interesting topic
Mark
Thank you Mark for difining a complete MA. I agree a martial art must know how to deal with all possible ways of attack. I my self would perfer to call a system of MA comprehensive then to use the word complete.
I've been really enjoying this discussion. Thanks for starting it.
From my perspective when viewing a complete martial art one has to keep in mind the difference between techniques and skills. Techniques are the actual movements which have form, and skill is the ability to apply techniques correctly with enough gong (roughly force) for it to be effective. IMO a complete art will have both the techniques for any combat situation as well as training that develops the necessary skill/force to apply techniques effectively for those combat situations.
I know this differentiation may seem obvious and trite, but I feel it's relevant in answering your most recent question.
Originally posted by stonecrusher69
If one is training in a MA like Shaolin kung Fu ( a complete art ) and fights and loses to a incomplete MA could you call it a complete MA?
In that instance, the person training a complete art either doesn't know the appropriate techniques and/or how to apply them (even though the art contains them), or he doesn't have the necessary skills or force to apply the techniques he knows (even though the art contains the methods to train the skills and force) against that specific opponent.
So in the situation you described, you have a martial artist who got beat because his techniques, skills, or both were not adequate to the combat situation he was in. He did not lose because his art doesn't have the techniques or skills. This is fairly commonplace. I don't think you will find anyone here who will argue that an exponent of a complete martial art will always beat an exponent of an incomplete art.
For example, if I were to fight Brock Lesnar, I wouldn't be excited about my chances of winning even though I practice what I consider a complete art. I know very effective techniques to handle any move he would likely throw at me, but I highly doubt my current skill/force level is enough to overcome his strength and athleticism, professional fighting training, and even more importantly large amounts of experience. This does not mean the my art is incomplete, it means that I am not skillful enough in the art to win that fight.
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