Xingyiquan

[Daoist]

I would like to share my knowledge of the Xingyiquan style and history as taught in my sect.
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Xingyiquan is an ancient style of Taoist martial art. Throughout history, it has gone by many names depending on who has practiced it. Xingyiquan, Xinyiquan, Xinyi Liu He Quan, Yi Quan, Xinyiba, and Liu He Ba Fa are all related arts that stemmed from the root art. The ancient name was Lie Quan, or Thunder Fist as practiced by the daoist monks. This art was very simple, and composed of only 5 movements corresponding to the taoist 5 elements of wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. These elemental movements were practiced as an internal exercise to strengthen the body's yin and yang organs corresponding to the 5 elements.

There are three ways of practicing Lie Quan: yin, yin-yang, and yang, or soft movements, soft to hard, and fast movements.

There are three key words for Lie Quan: Rise(yin), Fall(yin-yang), Drill(yang).

This simple art was mostly practiced as a chi gong, but later through the centuries was transformed into a complete fighting system. I am not sure, but if the Yue Fei Xingyiquan legend is true, I believe he was the first one to use it as a fighting system to train his army in hand-to-hand combat.

The Xingyiquan system later developed into a complete fighting system composed of 12 animals (or ten depending on the style), the linking fist, several two-man fighting forms, and weapon forms.

I think that Xingyiquan is a great art for longevity and martial purposes, but sadly many branches have lost the essence of Lie Chuan, mainly emphasis on internal development. Many practicioners today force their movements and end up choking the chi. Emphasis I believe should be on internal work first, then fighting skills develop from that.

I have been fortunate to learn both Xingyiquan and Lie Chuan, and treasure both arts. Unlike other daoist influenced styles that are popular today (taijiquan, baguazhang) Xingyiquan and the related arts can be practiced for a short period and attain quick results. This may in part be the reason that many practitioners go astray and quickly jump to training fighting skill without spending enough time strengthing the organs and chi. One already has a sense of internal strength after a few months and it can be tempting to release force before one has actually accumulated enough chi. As with all daoist martial arts, the emphasis is on effortless power instead of forced power.

[Phoenix]

Beautiful Wonderful

The art of Longevity of The Tao Masters and Immortals; how wonderful

I belive these ancient Dao Masters must had been the most blessed people in earth; if we dream about their longevity secrets ..

[drunken boxer]

Hi Daoist,

I'm a fan of Xingyiquan, and those arts related to it in various ways such as Taijiquan, Baguazhang and of course Eagle Claw. I also practise or have practised them all, apart from Baguazhang, so its always nice to read about them. I've also met a couple of excellent fighters who use Xingyiquan. Fascinating style.

Paul

[Robin]

Thanks Daoist,

That's some interesting information.

I know that Xingyiquan normally gets grouped with Bagua Zhang and Taijiquan as one of the three internal arts, but have hardly ever heard it desrcibed as a 'Daoist art'. So that's interesting .

Best

Robin

[Daoist]

Xingyi started off as a daoist chi gong art, then later was influenced by Shaolin styles. I don't know when this happened, but my guess is that it was either with the influence of Yue Fei, who was taught by Zhou Tong (legend says he was a shaolin monk or studied at shaolin), or when the Dai Family modified Xingyi with their pre-existing style. The Shaolin influence can be seen in the 12 or 10 animal forms, especially Tiger, and some versions of the Linking Fist have been altered. It was a good synthesis indeed!

[Daoist]

Hi Daoist,

I'm a fan of Xingyiquan, and those arts related to it in various ways such as Taijiquan, Baguazhang and of course Eagle Claw.

Eagle Claw is a great addition to Xingyi. Eagle style has a lot of different kicks and emphasis on hand speed. Combine that with Xingyi internal power, and you have a very complete martial style.

[Robin]

Wow, that's interesting Daoist.


Was it still called 'Xingyi' when it was a 'daosit chi kung art'?

Before the the synthesis with Shaolin Kung Fu?

All the best

Robin

[Daoist]

No, it was called Lie Chuan (Thunder Fist). The 5 element fists were the original techniques and were trained for chi gong purposes. The 5 element fists are only called by their elements in my style . Later on they began to be called Pi (Split), Zuan (Drill), Beng (Crush), Pao (Pound), and Heng (cross) in other Xingyi styles to emphasis the martial aspect of it. The 5 element fists of Lie Chuan are very different from most Xingyiquan styles and are practiced almost like one would practice Taijiquan in the beginning. Later on, you start to add speed and stomps accompany each movement. This is one reason why it is called Thunder Fist, for the stomps resonate like thunder.


*By the way, I read an article that Wang Xiang Zhai (famous XingYi/Yi Quan master) wrote a while back in which he said the oldest name of Xingyiquan is "Yi Quan". This is just a guess, but it could have been called "Yi Quan" first by Yue Fei, then later Xin yi liu he quan, Xinyiquan (Dai Family), and finally Xingyiquan. To make matters more confusing, Wang Xiang Zhai in the 20th century founded his own style and called it "Yi Quan". So there you have it. The art was probably named different things to highlight the strong points in the art at different stages in time.

[Phoenix]

Good Day

So, Lie Chuan is the name of the ancient style of Taoist martial art that is call now Xingyiquan! I see; thanks for the info;.
Now I wonder; or maybe i should say; sure have Lie Chuan something to do with this info?:

"
The official Ming History describes that Zhang San-Feng was an eccentric but highly achieved alchemist, ..... He practiced internal martial arts at Wudang Mountain with his teacher Huo Long Zhen Ren. Later in his life, legend has it that after witnessing the famed "battle between snake and crane", Zhang developed a martial art style that would work against faster, younger opponents, with four basic principles: use calm against action, soft against hard, slow against fast, and single against a group. However, Zhang is only one of the thousands of monks who practiced the internal arts at Wudang, and the martial arts there were most probably not of his creation alone.
The concepts of softness, listening, and sticking were discussed in Yu Daoyou's Sword Classic (Jianjing) from about 1550 AD. It is clear that these principles that are now associated with Taijiquan were part of some martial art style that preceded the time of Chen, Wang-ting."

http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan

"....according to Li Xiangyi (and researcher Qu Jian 蘧鑒) “the art of Wuji Cultivating Life” and “the Thirteen Postures Boxing” had been created by the Qianzai Temple priest Shi Li 十力(614-741), or Li Daozi 李道子, who mastered the Three Teachings, Qianjin yifang 千金翼方 “Revised Prescriptions Worth a Thousand Pieces of Gold,” dao yin 導引 “guiding and pulling” and tu na 吐納 “expelling the old breath and drawing the new” ...."

"..... The concepts of Taiji, yin/yang, and wuji 無極 existed long before the time of Zhang, San-Feng."

".....Like Taijiquan, the Wudang complex is a monument to the great spiritual achievements of ancient Chinese culture. In ancient times, the mountain was known as Taihe Shan. In the years between the 8th and 4th centuries BC, (the Spring and Autumn Period 春秋時代), the Chu Kingdom used the Wudang Mountains to fend off the invading Qin army. The name Wudang originates from an ancient quote that describes the defensive role that the mountain served; “fei zhen wu bu zu dang zhi” means “only true martial arts can provide resistance.” Wu means “martial” and Dang means “resistance”. Even in ancient times, the martial arts of Wudang were revered....."

"Taiji Chang Quan" existed in many variations, and eventually evolved into Taijiquan. Other forms of the same era such as "Heavenly-Inborn Style", "Nine Small Heavens", and "Acquired Kung Fu" also show similarities to what later became Taijiquan. The principles of softness, sticking, adhering, and using the opponent's own momentum against himself were established in these precursory martial styles. "

So can Lie Chuan have some conection to: Heavenly-Inborn Style", "Nine Small Heavens", and "Acquired Kung Fu" ?

And maybe sure it have some connection to these Qi Gong styles?:

".... One must also consider not only the specific martial art movements of Taijiquan, but also the principles of Qigong (energy cultivation), that are also an essential aspect of Taijiquan and all Internal Martial Arts. Hua-tu'o's Five Animals Qigong around 250 AD may also be considered an influential precursor to the slow, natural movements of the Taijiquan form, and earlier shamanistic animal exercises are known to have existed. The Dao Yin Tu 導引圖 movements and breathing exercises depicted on the Mawangdui 馬王堆 scroll, dated from around 200 BC, indicate that the concept of slow, flowing movements coordinated with the breathing and circulation of Qi throughout the body pre-dates Zhang and Chen by at least 1,500 years, and predates the arrival of Bodhidharma as well...."

" Internal arts: neigong, tu na, dao yin, yangsheng, and Taiji philosophy - the essence of Taijiquan. Those ancient shamanistic practices are known to be thousands of years old. "

" Recent archaeological findings of yin/yang symbols carved into tortoise shells and stone are estimated to be as much as 5,000 years old, so it seems the fundamental concepts of Taiji yin/yang philosophy, such as the spiraling nature of creative energy, and observing and harmonizing with natural cycles, have existed for millennia."

and this is the most important part i feel about the history of the
internal martial arts that exist today
(sure many very good internal martial arts are lost in history):

."....These fundamental Taiji concepts were already thousands of years old when Zhang and Chen popularized them, and there were probably hundreds of masters whose names are lost to history who could be considered equally responsible for the transmission of the principles within the Internal arts and the origin of Taijiquan....."

" ....As historical evidence is uncovered, it becomes clear that the essential Internal Arts principles, basic 13 patterns, and theory of Taijiquan that are attributed to Chen, and earlier to Zhang, have roots in pre-historical China. By practicing Taijiquan and its related Qigong, we connect ourselves in the present moment to this precious teaching that has been passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years. Practitioners of all styles all equally claim ownership to the art of Taijiquan, and as more evidence is revealed and hopefully translated to English, we will discover a comprehensively detailed history. Rather than quarrel over lineage, we may instead humbly practice and aspire to attain the wisdom that can be found within Taijiquan...."

http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan-2

Now about Marshal Yue Fei:

"....Yue, Fei proved himself to be an extraordinary soldier. His wisdom, bravery, and martial skill earned him promotion after promotion so that he became a general after only six years. ....Although some martial training had previously existed, Yue, Fei was the first to introduce Wushu into the army as a basic requirement before combat. ......Yue, Fei created for his troops two new styles of Wushu. The first style which he taught to the troops came from his internal training, and led to the creation of Xingyiquan. The second style, which he created out of external Wushu, was Eagle Claw, a style which put a major emphasis on Qin Na. The external style, because it was learned more easily, and because it had immediately practical techniques, made Yue’s troops successful in battle."

http://ymaa.com/articles/marshal-yue-fei-xingyiquan-part-2

So this mean that General Yue Fei must have learn internal martial art from a internat martial art teacher!?

" .... We humans have lost most of the natural instincts, senses, and fighting abilities that all other animals possess. In order to regain these abilities and use them to fight against other men, the martial artists in ancient times imitated the fighting techniques and spirits of animals, modifying them with human rational analysis. This is how many different styles were created....."

"... Xingyiquan was created in imitation of the fighting techniques and spirit of twelve animals. One of the documents which are available to us contains a section which explains what Xingyiquan is...."

"... The history of the martial arts before the Qing Dynasty (1644 a.d.) is very vague because almost all of the Chinese martial artists were conservative and the styles were passed down secretly. It is the same with Xingyiquan. According to most of the available documents, the origin of Xingyiquan should probably be dated at least as far back as the Liang Dynasty (502-557 a.d.) at the Shaolin Temple. This is because, at this time, the Shaolin Temple was already imitating the movements and fighting spirit of five animals in their martial arts training. Later, during the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1280 a.d.), it is believed that Zhang, San-Feng combined the concepts of Shaolin martial arts with his own understanding of Qi and created Taijiquan. In fact, many Xingyiquan practitioners believed that Xingyiquan originated at Wudang Mountain, the same as Taijiquan did....."

"....when the soldiers in Marshal Yue’s army were trained in Xingyiquan, the art has become very popular, and Marshal Yue is frequently credited with creating the art. However, since his martial arts originally came from the Shaolin Temple, many people trace Xingyiquan’s ancestry back to the Shaolin Temple....."

".... Generally, it is believed that a martial artist named Ji, Ji-Ke(nicknamed Long-Feng) of Pu Zhou, who traveled and visited the well known masters in the mountains of Sichuan and Shanxi Provinces, obtained on Zhong Nan Mountain a secret book on Xingyiquan written by Marshal Yue. After he studied the art for some time, he passed it down to his disciple Cao, Ji-Wu, who in turn passed it down to Ji, Shou and Ma, Xue-Li. Ji, Shou later published Yue’s book and popularized the art even more...."

".... It is believed that only a person who was an expert in both Chinese medicine and martial arts would be able to combine them to create these styles....."

http://ymaa.com/articles/xingyiquan-part-1

Daoist and others; any comments or any info about this info; should e great!

Regards

[Daoist]

Phoenix, that is a long post LOL. I commend you for gathering all that information for us though. I can't comment on everything, but perhaps I can shed some more light into the dark history of Xingyi (since everyone refers to it as Xingyi nowadays, I refer it as Xingyi as well. I like the name as good as Lie Chuan, even though they are technically different systems).

The root of the internal arts go back a long way, this is true. The system I learned came from a certain daoist monastery and is very old. This may seem silly to some, but I am not at liberty to speak much about it, even the history. Suffice to say the Lie Chuan I learned as well as the entire style dates to around the mid to early Tang dynasty (600 - 700 A.D.). This is the information that has been passed down to me, although there are many opinions about the history of the daoist martial arts.

Chinese martial arts, especially daoist martial arts, cannot be put into rigid classification. There is a natural ebb and flow with chinese martial styles throughout history, each influencing one another to some degree more or less. Kung fu masters of the past absorbed all they could of all the kung fu that was available and passed it down as an inheritance to the next generation of their style. Likewise, that generation absorbed more techniques, training methods, philosophy and passed it down to the next. There are many kung fu styles that are highly specialized arts, but many share the same root and have interacted with many other styles along the way.

[Robin]

Interesting

Hello Daosit and Phoenix,

Phoenix, that is an awfully long post.

Like Daoist said, it is nice that you spent so much time gathering the information. Maybe you could just summarise the info into a series of questions for Daosit?

Then it will be easier for him to answer you.

back to the questions eh?


I would like to make sure I've got this right.

• So originally the five fists were practiced purely as chi kung for 'chi gong purposes' (solely for health?)
  
• It was called 'thunder fist' because of foot stamping that sounded like thunder.
  
• Despite the name and the stamping, it had no martial usage at this stage?

All the best and thanks for the info

Robin

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, that is a long post LOL. I commend you for gathering all that information for us though. I can't comment on everything, but perhaps I can shed some more light into the dark history of Xingyi (since everyone refers to it as Xingyi nowadays, I refer it as Xingyi as well. I like the name as good as Lie Chuan, even though they are technically different systems).

yes it was long, just the time was bye when i was writing the post

Sir; please can you tell me only if you want have the Martial Art you train call Lie Chuan something to do with this style call: Lei Huai Quan ?

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74911&postcount=93

I have hear in other forums this style call Lei Huai Quan is a style that really don't exist! So i wonder, and that is why i ask,, and sorry if the question should not be answered then!

[Phoenix]

The root of the internal arts go back a long way, this is true. The system I learned came from a certain daoist monastery and is very old. This may seem silly to some, but I am not at liberty to speak much about it, even the history. Suffice to say the Lie Chuan I learned as well as the entire style dates to around the mid to early Tang dynasty (600 - 700 A.D.). This is the information that has been passed down to me, although there are many opinions about the history of the daoist martial arts.

I understand! So sorry again if i ask:

Is that allow for you sir to put info on the internet or here about were we can find your school in USA or any other info that someone in USA can see with his own eyes and train in your School? or is your school to special people only?

[Phoenix]

Phoenix.....

Chinese martial arts, especially daoist martial arts, cannot be put into rigid classification. There is a natural ebb and flow with chinese martial styles throughout history, each influencing one another to some degree more or less. Kung fu masters of the past absorbed all they could of all the kung fu that was available and passed it down as an inheritance to the next generation of their style. Likewise, that generation absorbed more techniques, training methods, philosophy and passed it down to the next. There are many kung fu styles that are highly specialized arts, but many share the same root and have interacted with many other styles along the way.

sorry my last question, you don't need to answer, you sure knows that but if you want ( to answer) ok then

Sir; is it true that there is a Martial Art call Celestial Immortal Kung Fu? there the Celestial Immortal Taoist Masters, that had train long time ago in maybe Huashan, Emei etc had the power to use their long Qi Gong training in Martial Arts skills if it was nessesary?

Regards

[Phoenix]

Hello Daosit and Phoenix,

....

All the best and thanks for the info

Robin

Thank You Robin