Western Sword

[Peter Clayton]

Just looking to get another of the many things on my mind cleared up:

Can a Shaolin weapon art (sword / knife) be used in combination with a western sword such as a broadsword?

Also, one traditional view of a western sword is a large, heavyish double edged blade. Presumably, using techniques for the jian would be a bad idea but what about dao techniques? Can it be used with a weapon that has two cutting edges?

Peter.

[Tapio Raevaara]

Hello Peter!

As no one else has answered yet, I'll give you my intellectual answer. Please note that my actual experience with sword and sabre is limited to a few years of wushu (sword, sabre, staff, spear) and Chen taijiquan (sword, sabre). I'm higly interested in the subject and I've spent hundreds of hours reading about Chinese swords and sword arts, but I'm definitely not an authority of any kind.

There are a few ways to answer your question. We could start by comparing the western and Chinese swords.

Considering the rich history and vast size of China, I find it a surprising that characteristics of Ming and Qing period jian fall within a very narrow range. A typical full length jian weighs from 1.5 lbs to 2 lbs (700-900 g) and the blade length is usually somewhere between 25 and 30 inches. The guard is usually very small.

In contrast, there is no single entity known as 'western sword'. By 'broadsword' you probably mean an arming sword (you know, the 'knight's sword'), a one-handed war sword used in Europe during the high middle ages. Compared to a jian, a typical arming sword was a few inches longer and weighed about 2.5 pounds (1100 g); the point of balance was also a bit further from the hilt. The blade was wider and thinner than a jian blade, and the sword had a large cross-shaped guard. (Yes, the traditional view of a western sword as a sharpened baseball bat made of steel is rather incorrect.)

Another sword that could be compared to a jian could be a smallsword from late Renaissance. It was about the same length and weight as a jian, but sometimes lacked a cutting edge and could only be used as a piercing weapon. It usually had a small round or figure-eight guard and a knuckle-bow.

A two-handed jian (shuangshoujian) was a rather rare weapon, but I think it would be easier to find a western counterpart for that. I think a long sword (aka. 'hand-and-a-half sword' or 'bastard sword') would do just fine. The most notable difference would probably be the huge guard of the western sword.

Of course, there is much more to swords than the size, shape and weight. Temper, taper, cross-section and overall constuction of the blade, the point of balance, the guard, the hilt, the pommel... all these affect the way the sword should and could be handled. But a sword is still a sword, it can be used for striking, cutting and piercing.

Are these weapons optimal for Shaolin Kungfu? No. Shaolin sword techniques were developed for the sword that was most commonly available: the Chinese jian. Can Shaolin Kungfu techniques be used with these weapons? Yes.

If a Shaolin master had to fight or train with a western sword, he would probably modify his art a bit. He might, for example, to get rid of the techniques most depending of the agility of the sword if the sword was significantly heavier than a jian and favour the techniques that vere more suitable. Shaolin Kungfu is a vast art, he would have a lot to pick from.

But more importantly, he would still be using the same basic skills. Footwork, stances, internal force... it doesn't matter which weapon you're using, it's still Shaolin Kungfu.

What about dao then? Well, let's just say that there's much more variety here. Unlike jian, there's three main variations of the common sabre or pei dao.

Niuweidao or 'ox-tail sabre' is the one most often seen today (in wushu and kungfu movies), with a blade that broadens towards the tip before tapering. It was never in military use, it was used by the rebels who had to learn to fight quickly. The shape of the blade added weigth to a blow at the expense of finesse.

Liuyedao or 'willow leaf sabre' was the most common form. It had a gentle curve and equal width alongh the full length of the blade before tapering towards the tip.

Yanmaodao or 'goose quill sabre' was a cross between a jian and a dao. It was mostly straigth with a slight curve near the tip, and the tip had a double edge. It was supposed to combine the strengths of both dao and jian, but some say it combined the weaknesses.

(In addition to these, there were many other types of sabres, like miao dao (very similar to katana or nodachi) and zhanmadao or 'horse chopping sabre' (a loooong two-handed sabre for anti-cavalry use).)

These pei dao were only slightly (if at all) heavier to a jian, so I don't see why dao techniques would be any better than jian techniques when using western double-edged swords. But would it be possible? Yes. Although jian and dao were mostly used in a different manner, there were still a lot of similarities. While a jian was a little better at thrusting and a dao was a little better at cutting, they were both extremely lethal at both thrusting and cutting, and if I'm not mistaken, in Baguazhang jian and dao are used in exactly the same manner. But I don't think this is the case with Shaolin Kungfu.

Did I answer your questions?

[Peter Clayton]

Did I answer your questions?

Just a bit

I appreciate this crash course in the world of swords. I've always found them fascinating but never really delved that deeply.

Here's a tricky one - I was also wondering has there ever been a specific art for the offensive and defensive use of the shield?

Peter.

[Chiahua]

That's a cool crash course. I've always wondered about how a kung fu exponent would adapt to using a katana.

[joko]

I have no doubt about that.
Remember seeing Jacky Chan or other actors use ordinary bench as weapon? (though it is only in movies).
If a bench can be used as weapon, then certainly other things can be used as well.

Joko

[Jani]

I have no doubt about that.
Remember seeing Jacky Chan or other actors use ordinary bench as weapon? (though it is only in movies).
If a bench can be used as weapon, then certainly other things can be used as well.

Joko

Sorry for going slightly off-topic but after reading post by Sifu Joko I remembered this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVQR7XBD-h0

Looks pretty interesting

Warm regards,

Jani

[cnholmes]

Excellent post, Tapio Many valid points.

I used to do fencing (only do kungfu now ), that is my swordsmanship background. You can search on this forum for lots of posts from the past.

The three basic skills vital to fencing are timing, spacing and sufficient force (although the third is open to interpretation). The four modes of preparation and three arrivals are still required, but are described in different terms (mere semantics).

All the other factors we meet in kungfu, asking the way; taming; pressing attacks; no defense direct counter; yielding, can all be put into use.

A Shaolin Master would find it easy to use a western sword, of any reasonable sort. His defence would be neat and effective, his attacks well-chosen, economical and accurately targetted. He could sum up his opponent and apply (and avoid) feints.

Regards,
Chris

[Peter Clayton]

OK, let me throw something else into the fire:-

What about the Longbow? Can, say, staff techniques be used?

Peter.

[snowcelt]

Hi Timberwolf,

I have been practicing european longsword (the italian style of Fiore dei Liberi) for about three years. I have to admit not knowing anything about chinese sword styles or how they relate to kungfu but I would be willing to bet that the variety of swords that have been used in the western world would come close to that of the east in the sense that in terms of how the style evolved and from what period you look at. It depends on what you want to do with your sword. Basically, are you trying to cut/slash with some thrusting, or is the weapon primarily for thrusting? Things can be further complicated by the use of shields, and these also come in various sizes and shapes, and even shields can be used offensively; not to mention having a second weapon in the other hand, i.e. using rapier and dagger.
As I practise longsword which Tapio has described as a bastard sword, although both hands can be used on the sword, the left hand or off hand can also be used to control the opponents sword hand, to strike, to lock, to bind, break, or to throw. How the sword is used or evolves also depend on how armour evolves, or is it the other way round :-)
If you use the jian or dao for kungfu, I would guess that these swords have been expressly developed for this art, evolving hand in hand (sorry for the awful pun). If you can't get your hands on one though, I think that you would still have a huge range of western weapons which would approximate the eastern ones, even if they are not the exact counterpart. I would also expect that some modifications would be necessary due to length, weight, point of balance, and choice of weapon, i.e. single hand, hand and a half (bastard sword), or two handed. Although, why you might want to use a two handed greatsword in the Scottish tradition, or the flamberge zweihander of the German landsknecht tradition, for a chinese style is beyond me :-) Only joking..Tapio's suggestions for a smallsword, sidesword or backsword might better suit your needs. It's just that IMO if you have the requisite skill with weapon A it should work for a broadly similar weapon, after all the first rule is hit and don't get hit, and only hit when you are sure you can't get hit.
If you would like to find more information on swords in general the international sword forum is an excellent resource and covers all styles (east and west) in an academic and helpful manner. Here's the link:

http://forums.swordforum.com/index

For Tapio: if you're interested, and aren't already a member: check out www.swordschool.com

Hope this helps.

En garde!

Kevin.

[snowcelt]

Hi again,

I don't think the link works so hopefully this will:

http://forums.swordforum.com/index.php?

Cheers,

K.

[JoseFreitas]

Hi Timberwolf,

I would say that the "arming sword" referenced here and the chinese jian are close enough that a skilled chinese player would be able to use a western sword, but jian is a broad term and the actual art used to wield it makes a lot of difference. Northern style sword is different from Taiji or Bagua forms, and so on, and the differences between them make it difficult to assess how a practicioner would do with a western sword.

Time to adapt might be necessary, but truly good martial artists are able to look beyond the superficial aspects of a weapon and apply "body skill" ie use a weapon as an extension of the body. Obviously this implies much skill and experience with various types of weapons, ranges, weights, and so on. If your only experience is with the staff, you'll probably not do well with a sword. But you might do OK with a two handed sword, since many staff techniques could be applied to it. Etc...

I am familiar with a few forms of chinese swords. This doesn't mean I am experienced or skilled in them (far from it, ). I would say the following: based on my experience with a double-handed chinese sword (I learned a northern Praying Mantis form for the two handed jian) it wouldn't be too difficult to use an arming sword, especially if the handle was slightly longer than average (not unusual in many of them, since there was a blending in a continuum between arming swords and bastard swords). I have an arming sword in my collection, and I also practice Taiji sword. Using Taiji skills with the arming sword is much more difficult, but essentially because the assumptions regarding environment, armour, range et al are different. You would have to sift through the Taiji form and eliminate those techniques that work essentially on sticking, soft deflections, and "poking" (ie short stabbing actions). I definitely would feel more confident in using the Praying Mantis stuff, and it wouldn't be so necessary to carefully go through the form and eliminate things that wouldn't work.

Take everything I said with a grain of salt! No one ever attacked me with a sword, and my interest in it is mostly aesthetic, I enjoy doing forms, that's all. These are observations based on trying out a few things and fooling around with friends. But I have to also add that fooling around with friends and trying out crazy stuff with different weapons is one of the things that make it fun to practice the martial arts!

best

José de Freitas

[snowcelt]

Hi again,

being rather intrigued by the thread's topic, I googled for a happy half hour to see if i could find western historical analogies for the jian and dao swords. Bear in mind though that as much as outer form doesn't tell much about the internal aspects, a 2 dimensional image on the net tells nothing of the handling abilities of a weapon.
I wondered though about the parallel evolution of swords between cultures and while the jian does indeed resemble an arming sword, it seems to be as long as a bastard sword, although the cross guard on the arming sword is much closer to the size on a jian. Interestingly, the dao looks really like a falchion or german grosse messer (literally big knife). Just from what i can google, the variation of swords regardless of culture is massive, such that while it may be possible to say sword A is a falchion or a dao, things like blade length, degree of curve, hilt length, and pommel size, length, shape etc can vary enormously.
Is there a generic dao/jian for kung fu? Or are these umbrella terms used much like the term "broadsword"?

Interesting stuff!!

All the best,

Kevin.

[Peter Clayton]

Jose and Snowcelt,

Thank you for the weath of information you have posted, you have shown me that the world of swords is a much more detailed and varied one than I originally thought.

Peter.

[JoseFreitas]

Plus swords are fun and there are tons of beautiful, fantastic forms and methods to learn how to move with them. I try never to miss a seminar or class involving swords, wether japanese, western (well, this has been mostly portuguese stickfighting, which includes sword techniques) or chinese.

Have fun!

José de Freitas

[drunken boxer]

Wow, doing searches on old threads can be fun, another gem of knowledge that I hadn't seen before from Tapio.