Effectiveness of Eye Strikes

[Adam B]

Hi all,

I watched a fight on Spike TV last night, and couldn't help but remember all the discussions where the BJJ/MMA guys said they would fight through an eye gouge. Here is an example of what happens when a UFC fighter takes a direct (and in this case unintentional) strike to the eye.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8WiQznRLxE

Hopefully he doesn't have any permanant damage.

All the best,

-Adam

[Antonius]

That was just an accident. You couldn't do that intentionally. Or if you did, I'd just close my eyes.

[George]

That was just an accident. You couldn't do that intentionally. Or if you did, I'd just close my eyes.

Quality sarcasm.


Best wishes,

[drunken boxer]

Thanks brothers! All 3 of you!

Quality sarcasm.


Best wishes,

Agreed!

P.s. they removed the link from youtube, Adam (how are you doing not seen you since Sabah) care to describe what happened?

I used to wonder about the effectiveness of eye strikes (not to mention snake strikes etc) then on a Warrior Project I took an accidental Golden Dragon strike in the eye - all doubts were erased - I suffered double vision for the next 5 minutes, could have been more if TaiSiheng Kai had not treated me, and this was much more unpleasant than a punch in the face - also this one strike would have ended the combat in my opponents favour had it been a fight. And this was an accidental one! I know the person who did it felt bad at the time, but it was great for giving confidence in our art, and in my own ability to defend myself (I know Golden Dragon too

[Darryl]

.. if you did, I'd just close my eyes

Ah, this still makes me smile

[Adam B]

Hey Paul,

Adam (how are you doing not seen you since Sabah) care to describe what happened?

Different Adam B from FL (I think Adam Bunn is still a lurker), but I'm doing well, thanks.

Basically, the one fighter was unable to punch with a closed fist due to breaking his hand 3 times in the past year, so he was jabbing with a palm strike instead (what he said after the fight). He threw a jab which was pretty much a white snake, and his fingers went straight into the other fighter's right eye. The pokee went down screaming and holding his face.

-Adam

[Antonius]

care to describe what happened?

Basically, Fighter A got incredibly lucky and accidentally poked Fighter B in the eye. Meanwhile, fighter B forgot to counter (i.e. close his eyes), and went down immediately. Of course, in a real fight, Fighter B would have fought through the pain.

[drunken boxer]

Adam - so sorry for my carelessness! Well I hope both of you are doing well!

Of course, in a real fight, Fighter B would have fought through the pain.

Ah yes, the famous Iron Eyelid kungfu!

I note that not only are eye gouges banned from most combat sports that I've heard of, but in boxing its even a foul to 'thumb' someone in the eye. Competition gloves are now designed with the thumb stitched to the rest of the glove to prevent this. There have also been fighters disqualified for doing it, and fighters who claim to have lost because of it, not necessarily because of the thumb strike itself but as a result of the impaired vision or distraction it caused, which then left them open to shots they might have avoided.
This is when it is done with:
- the thumb
- a glove covering the thumb (quite thick padding)
- external force

... and it still causes problems for a competition fighter. Never mind when its done with
- the fingers (using properly devised and trained technique)
- no glove
- internal force.

[JoseFreitas]

Finger jabbing the eyes is one of the most effective techniques one can use, especially since it can be combined with so much other stuff - for example, lots of deflections or sticky blocks with "rubbing" can contain eye strikes. I also practice a Snake Fist, and I am assuming your Snake Fist too contains plenty of palm techniques, to hook the opponent's arms/hand, to jab throat/eyes/soft spots on the chest?

But I have to admit I'd be a little wary of over-training this sort of thing. Since I don't live in a very violent environment (far from it) I would hate to rely on such a dangerous skill. I don't want to blind someone just because he drunk too much and imagined that I was pushing him or looking at his girlfriend (OK, maybe I was...). Not to mention the legal hassles. There is a fine line between a finger jab to the ey to "gain a reaction" and actually maiming someone for life, and in the confusion it can be crossed too easily.

[Omar]

We cannot close our eyes too the fact that if they in professional MMA matches take accidental pokes to the eye while in say the regional courses conducted by Sifu relative beginners go through ~24 hours of training with no one even getting hit, save bruised forearms even with tigers, snakes and ducks flying everywhere, the term "professional" kind of looses its weight very fast.

In my point of view that is. Less macho pherhaps, but a lot more safe, and steeper learning curve due to methodical training and techniques.

I'm 99% sure a seasoned even formerly eye-poked MMA-figher in a real fight would "win" until the kungfu/other combat effective martial art practitioner has enough skill and/or force to effectively end combat with one pattern, not ending up rolling around grunting in 10 minute lockholds on the ground. I don't really have the eye to enjoy MMA a lot, especially when they go down and sprawl for minutes.

[Jordan]

Who'd have thought? That getting poked in the eye can not only happen, but it will darn well hurt as well! Wow.

There's a very good reason why it is banned in these sports. Those UFC guys are tough cookies, and they sure know what they're doing, but even the most toughest of them all rely on their squishy eyeballs to get by. And they are squishy... not much more can be said really.

[subchimp]

Basically, Fighter A got incredibly lucky and accidentally poked Fighter B in the eye. Meanwhile, fighter B forgot to counter (i.e. close his eyes), and went down immediately. Of course, in a real fight, Fighter B would have fought through the pain.

I'm always a bit slow on the uptake; I'm not sure if this was intended to be sarcastic? But, from other people's responses, I'm guessing it was.

I'm not sure about the eye-closing bit, but I think if it wasn't for the rules prohibiting eye-gouges, 'Fighter B' could well have continued to fight, and probably would not have reacted so dramatically.

In matches where eye-gouges were not illegal (such as gerard gordeau vs yuki nakai) fighters continued to fight with much worse eye injuries than that received here.

The reactions of MMA fighters to groin shots is another example of the same evolution - when they were legal, fighters did 'fight through the pain', now that they are illegal and fighters are given time to recover (and possibly points deducted from their opponent), fighters double up and go to ground at even glancing groin shots.

I'm not saying that sticking a finger into an opponent's eye would not be a very useful technique in a street fight (something I'm thankful never to have been involved in), but I think the reaction in the video was at least partially a response to the rule-set rather than purely to the eye-gouge.

[Omar]

Yea, he probably took inspiration from some of the great Italian (soccer) masters, putting on a oscar-candidate show to have points deducted from his opponent.

Seriously though, I'd immagine taking a even accidental eye poke to be several more times painful then say having a football kicked to your groin. The last thing going through your mind will be "acting it out" in a match.

Fortunately I cannot speak from experience.

[subchimp]

Wasn't quite what I meant.

Sure, getting an accidental finger in the eye hurts, messes with your vision and puts you at an immediate disadvantage.
My point wasn't that he was acting; only that, if he hadn't been expecting a time-out, he'd probably have overcome the instinct to dive backwards to avoid further punishment and instead, 'fought through the pain'.

In training I've caught an accidental finger in the eye before, it hurt and my sparring partner and I both stopped while I recovered. While playing rugby I've had guys deliberately stick their fingers in my eye, but because of the competitive environment, and because I'd nothing to gain by clutching my eye and whining, I did 'play through the pain'.

[Jimbeaux]

You don't need to make contact with poison snake for it to be effective.

I too was troubled by how violent the attack is, and I told my Sifu after class that I thought it was so dangerous, that I would never use it. He said I may not have to. How's that possible??

Sifu Kai told us that he ended one or two fights before they started by shooting out a poison snake and stopping short of the eyes and saying, "Next time I won't stop." (and that's a level 2 skill)

He always says the Shaolin way is to give a person a chance to back down. And it's a damn good thing those people did back down!