Combat Sequence 12

[8nsteen8]

I have a question about the start of this sequence.

At the step by step videos from Blue Mountain, Initiator starts with Black Tiger, Responder a Fierce Dragon moving behind the Initiator and locking him.

At the 12 video sequences. Initiator starts with Black Tiger, Responder with White Snake and then Initiator do a Fierce Dragon moving in behind and locking.

At the picture series. Initiator start with a Fierce Dragon, Responder a White Snake and Initiator do a Fierce Dragon moving behind and locking.

Which way is the standard procedure?

/Niklas

[joko]

Dear Niklas,

Please see Sifu Emiko's post;

Happy training,
Joko

[Zhang Wuji]

As I was taught, the only important thing (solely in respect of techniques) is to move from your right mode to left mode - the left Fierce Dragon or the right vertical fist (not Black Tiger) does not really matter, and to induce the responder to strike with his right arm, thereby setting up the opportunity for your qin-na. Oops - a secret revealed

[Andrea]

the left Fierce Dragon or the right vertical fist (not Black Tiger) does not really matter, and to induce the responder to strike with his right arm, thereby setting up the opportunity for your qin-na.

A great shift in perspective ...
I am not yet at CS 12 but found that there are so many variations even in the lower TJQ sequences when learning from the videos/picture series, but this answers them all!

Thank you!!!

Andrea

[8nsteen8]

-

Thank you all for your input.

I will sum up my understanding so far around sequence 12.

The step by step video from Costa Rica is the correct one since it is the initiator that performs the signature move "Carry Tiger back to Mountain"

In this sequence the Initial strategic move of setting up the opponent to attack with his right arm is removed.

Another question, what is the difference between a Right Vertical Punch and a Black Tiger?

/Niklas

[joko]

Dear Niklas,

In the Step by Step video from Costa Rica, it is the responder who performs the signature to counter the opponent's right hand attack.

What is "Carrying Tiger Back to Mountains"?

I'll put the quotation from your post no.1, please notice the part put in bold.

At the step by step videos from Blue Mountain, Initiator starts with Black Tiger, Responder a Fierce Dragon moving behind the Initiator and locking him.

At the 12 video sequences. Initiator starts with Black Tiger, Responder with White Snake and then Initiator do a Fierce Dragon moving in behind and locking.

At the picture series. Initiator start with a Fierce Dragon, Responder a White Snake and Initiator do a Fierce Dragon moving behind and locking.

Which way is the standard procedure?

Carry Tiger Back to Mountain is what you have written: moving behind the opponent and locking, which actually is qinna. This is one of the counters to an opponent's right hand attack. In the examples above, that right hand attack can be a Black Tiger, or a White Snake.

Which way is the standard procedure?

In the Wahnam Combat Sequence 12, we do the "Carry Tiger Back to Mountain" with Fierce Dragon Palm, while our left hand holds/grips the opponent's right arm.
The standard sequence can be verified from the video clip showing Sifu performing the Solo practice.

Another question, what is the difference between a Right Vertical Punch and a Black Tiger?

In Right Vertical Punch, the palm of your right fist faces to the left, while in Black Tiger, that right palm of the fist is facing down.

[8nsteen8]

-

Dear Joko,

I thought a Fierce Dragon was a Fierce Dragon regardless the application for it?

And i thought this pattern executed by Siheng Wong Chun Nga was Carry Tiger back to Mountain?

[joko]

And i thought this pattern executed by Siheng Wong Chun Nga was Carry Tiger back to Mountain?

Siheng Chun Nga is applying "Black Bear Sink Hips" to counter the qinna (Fierce Dragon) done by Sifu. (That's what I thought)

I checked again the Picture Series, yes, you are right, the caption says "Carry Tiger Back to Mountain.

One thing for sure: In Seq 12, Fierce Tiger is used for qinna while moving to the back of the opponent, and to counter that, the responder will turn the body, and do the felling counter attack. (That's why initially I thought the pattern used by Sihing Chun Nga was Black Bear Sink Hips)

To counter the felling, then the initiator will use Golden Cockerel.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hej Niklas,

While I think that Emiko's point about the initiator performing the signature pattern of any given sequence is very perceptive, when it comes to Sequence 12, I'm not 100% convinced.

On the one hand, the step by step series is the latest information we have from Sifu on the sequences. This and Emiko's observation are strong points in favour of the initiator performing Carry Tiger Back to Mountain. On the other hand, performing the sequence whereby the responder performs Carry Tiger Back to Mountain fits in well with the flavour and tactics of the responder who loves nothing more than to turn the tables on the initiator. Just when the initiator thinks he has the responder locked up, he finds himself on the ground! (Naturally, Sifu provides us with an answer for the initiator's situation and he doesn't get thrown)

I can see merit in both versions and my suggestion is that you train the sequence both ways. It will be interesting to see what happens in Penang this September. I'm very excited about the course and am looking forward to training with Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners from all over the world.

Here's a question for you. Who is the first to perform the signature move, Black Bear Sinks Hips, in sequence 9? To me this is another classic example of the responder turning the tables on the initiator. Just when the initiator thinks he's going to throw the responder, Bang! He is himself thrown. (Again, Sifu provides the initiator with a solution and he doesn't get thrown)

Of course, I'm open to other ideas. It's very possible that my wise sister Emiko is correct and I'm just stuck on the way I learnt the sequences from Sifu in the past.

To answer your other question, one difference between a vertical punch and a Black Tiger is that the fist is horizontal in a Black Tiger.

Best regards,

[Joan]

Go with the Flow!

Hi Everybody

Just to add another little bit!

When Sifu generously conducted the 4 Abridged Sequences here last month, the 2nd Sequence-Kicking was performed by the Responder doing the Kick and the Initiator doing Tiger poise.

Next day to make it easier for everybody Sifu changed it to the Initiator Kicking and the Responder doing Tiger poise

I

can see merit in both versions and my suggestion is that you train the sequence both ways.

I agree

It is also good fun!

I will have the DVD of the 4 Abridged Sequences and Set shortly. If anybody would like a copy please PM me and I will gladly post it to you.

Sifu performs the set slowly and with speed, which is amazing to watch It really was a wonderful course. Thank you Sifu.

I look forward to seeing and training with everybody in September.

Smile from the Heart,
Joan

[Jeffrey Segal]

one of my favourite sequence resources

Good morning

I wonder whether everybody is aware of this webpage which has links to Sifu performing all 12 sequences slowly, first as the initiator and then as the responder. Joko alluded to this series in his post yesterday.

I love those videos. I find them useful and inspiring.

Enjoy your training!

[Robin]

Life saver for those attending

Nice one Jeffrey,

It was good to see those again.

I am sure everybody attending the course knows the better you know those sequences the less 'brain fry' you will have in Malaysia.
Also, if you know the seqeunces before the course you can spend your time absorbing the skills Sifu teaches as oppossed to form which you can learn anywhere ie. Sifu's book and site

Alll the best

Robin

[Joan]

One month to go!

Exactly one month to go

I look forward to meeting and training with all of my Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan sisters and brothers.

It is a wonderfully big group, so lots of fun to be had.

With deep appreciation to Sifu for conducting this special course.

Smile from the Heart,
Joan

[joko]

Back to Niklas's initial question in Post no. 1:

Which way is the standard procedure?

The answer to the question can be found in this page, quoted below:

Sequence 12: Carry Tiger Back to Mountain

Initiator
Playing the Lute, Fierce Dragon Across Stream, Lift Hands, Fierce Dragon Across Stream, Golden Cockerel Stands Solitarily, Immortal Waves Sleeves, Playing the Lute

Responder
Playing the Lute, Immortal Waves Sleeves. White Snake Shoots Venom, Carry Tiger Back to Mountain, White Snake Shoots Venom, Playing the Lute

[RPJ]

Sequence

Ciao Joko !

I look forward to train this sequence with you, as we did last april in Malaysia !

Riccardo