Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

beyond method, lacking definition

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • beyond method, lacking definition

    In a previous thread Sifu Stier emphasized the importance of properly locating an acupuncture point for correct treatment. It makes perfect sense on its face, and also is meaningful in the sense that within the context of a particular system or art, the definitions provided by that system should be closely followed. Here a medicine system prescribes that to locate an individual acupuncture point you should, as Sifu Stier already said, establish the patient's unit of measurement, utilize appropriate landmarks, and then exactly locate the acu point instead of "guestimating."

    An experienced practitioner can appreciate that results are more important than method. Methods, such as proper and exact point location, are always taught first, but part of mastery is the ability to achieve results without being confined by the method. From the single perspective of a particular school of Chinese medicine, acupuncture point X is always located a certain way. From the larger perspective of an experienced practitioner who has studied or been exposed to multiple systems, the result is more important than the method. This is proven by the fact that there are different point location methods for different acu points, and each method can be equally effective.

    For example, the current teaching in the US for the acupunture point Kidney-1 (Yongquan) puts the point closer to the toes than older texts and schools from just 20-30 years ago. Different practitioners may use one method and not the other and still achieve equally good results. The master who taught me Taijiquan locates at least two points (Lung-7 / Lieque, and L.I.-4 / Hegu) differently from an equally accomplished master in his office, and both achieve equally impressive results. If this is true, it shows a lessening in importance of the physical level of Chinese medicine because if acu point X can be located in different ways by different systems with equivalent results, then it shows the rigid definition of physical point location is not equal in importance to the higher levels of qi and shen in the art of Chinese medicine.

    The higher levels of all internal arts in Chinese terms are the qi and shen levels, which I believe are accessed by true masters, who are not constrained by method or technique. They can achieve results by operating primarily at the shen level, and then work their way downward to the qi and finally the jing (physical) level. Non-masters start at jing and work their way up, and are bound by the constraints and necessary definitions of going from bottom to top.

    While it would be irresponsible to start teaching someone in a Chinese medicine curriculum that the physical point location is not important, in fact, for a beginner in any art the jing level is the starting point, I am fascinated by those teachers and arts who can quickly move their students to the higher levels.

    The ideas at play can be applied to any internal art, not just medicine. For example, in martial arts, one system may dictate that you should never move both feet at once, but another system may allow this. The fact that each system can achieve desired results shows that rigid definitions are a starting point and a means to an end.

    Michael
    Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
    Take frankness and friendliness to heart.

  • #2
    An Asset, not a Constraint!

    pgsg:

    I was of the understanding that you were a student, not an expert master of Chinese Medicine! As such, I find your suggestions and implications quite arrogant and insulting. Who are you to say what constitutes expertise and mastery? What? Another guy who thinks that he knows it all because he studied in China? What a hoot! You know, sometimes it's better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!

    Different locations are now taught for given acupuncture points than those found in the older texts and systems because the PRC 'authorities' chose to re-route and re-number many of the traditional meridians. Why they did this seems to have been more in the interest of discrediting another aspect of 'Old China' than anything else. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it, Bubba"!

    Unfortunately, now it is broke in China, to such a degree that most of the elderly traditional doctors express their concern that the old methods are in danger of disappearing altogether as the older Masters pass away. That leaves you, and most everyone else learning nowadays, with a 'watered down', 'modernized' shadow of the classical arts. It's called TCM! Very sad! Not unlike the seemingly related, yet distant connection between the Beijing Simplified 24 Taiji and the Old Yang Imperial Long Form 108 Tai-Chi Chuan.

    Additionally, the point locations are not arbitrary in my opinion. Oftentimes, even with accurate measurement to locate a specific point, it is necessary to withdraw the needle nearly all the way out, then reinsert the needle at a 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch different angle in order to 'summon the chi'! That's one reason why measuring, rather than 'eyeballing', to locate points not found at the tips of the fingers and toes or at the terminations of joint creases is important for good results. Especially for those practitioners, like me, who don't use any kind of 'machine' attached to the equipments.

    One of the contributing factors to excellent results, in my case for over 35 years now, has been the use of a System which performs the same methods and the same techniques in the same manner and in the same order every time. Thus, there is no risk of forgetting or omitting any part of the overall process, because the Internal Arts Principles of Rhythm and Cycles are employed.

    Definition of Methodology, and Consistency of Methodology is an ASSEST, not a restrictive constraint!
    http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

    Comment


    • #3
      Sifu Stier, perhaps you would like to explain a bit more about the similarities and differences between your style of acupuncture (Five Element) and other styles.

      In my experience learning from both Five Element (Prof. Worsley tradition) teachers and others (Dr. John Shen & Dr. Leon Hammer tradition) teachers, it seems that the Five Element practitioners are more concerned with precise point location. In contrast, some of the other instructors teach that the point locations are dynamic and fluid -- that the points move around and must be located by art, not science.

      I find the contrast interesting, but not necessarily contradictory. As we know from the martial arts, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have one teacher who would locate Zusanli Stomach 36 in a precise spot, for example 3 cun inferior to Dubi Stomach 35, one finger-breadth lateral to the anterior crest of the tibia. But another teacher would start from that spot and say, "now find the point."

      What I find most interesting is that both of the teachers mentioned above are long-time practitioners who are extremely effective in using their respective styles.
      Sifu Anthony Korahais
      www.FlowingZen.com
      (Click here to learn more about me.)

      Comment


      • #4
        To each their own!

        An old adage says..."Different strokes for different folks". That's Ok with me. Each practitioner is entitled to employ whatever they feel works best for them. Accordingly, I do things in my practice with a precise and systematic methodology which has worked really well for me for a very long time. I am pleased with this practice, as are my patients, and will undoubtedly continue to practice in the same manner regardless of what others think or do!
        http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear friends,
          "Different locations are now taught for given acupuncture points than those found in the older texts and systems because the PRC 'authorities' chose to re-route and re-number many of the traditional meridians. Why they did this seems to have been more in the interest of discrediting another aspect of 'Old China' than anything else."
          This is only an educated guess but perhaps they (PRC) changed the points for the same reasons they wanted to "simplify" Chinese.

          Divineshadow
          "Om"

          I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present

          Comment


          • #6
            some clarification

            Dear Sifu Stier:

            Thanks for the very informative response. This forum is a great place to learn from a variety of people who have mastered their arts, and your quick and accurate assessment of the situation keeps things real in this thread, and in others. In the past I have often offended people from whose experience I wished to benefit. It's a shortcoming of mine, but not intentional. My current teachers, to their credit, find a way to overlook it. As to my foolishness, that's never been in question. If I keep my mouth shut, I will not learn.

            My status as a student of Chinese medicine is unusual. I am certainly not enrolled, with no plans to do so. The only thing I've studied in China so far is how to order food and find the toilet. Back in Texas, I had an opportunity to learn some Chinese medicine informally from my Taijiquan teacher. Because of the excellence of my Taijiquan/Chinese medicine teacher, and also the excellence of my Pan Gu Shengong teacher, I have achieved remarkable results in a very short period of training, while under negligible supervision. It's not me, it's the method. I did not intend to come off as a master of Chinese medicine, or even as an "experienced practitioner", but as someone who wanted to discuss certain concepts and ideas from the perspective of such a person. I agree that it's arrogant. This forum, and your direct response to my post, have given me that amazing thing that is so difficult to know: how do other people see me? I thank you, sincerely.

            Michael
            Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
            Take frankness and friendliness to heart.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Clarification!

              Dear Michael:

              Thank you for the clarification on your earlier post. Since your comments were posted immediately after my own, it seemed to me that you were passing a negative judgement on me and the methods which I employ. I am glad that this is not the case, and hope that you will accept my apology for the response I gave you. I assure you that there are no hard feelings here. I welcome any future discussions of ideas and concepts with you.

              If I may ask you, with whom did you study Tai-Chi Chuan and Chinese Medicine in Dallas? Jimmy Wong? Richard Peck? Or someone else? I hope that you can allow a really great learning opportunity to manifest for you while you are in China! It's a big place with alot of people, so surely somebody's gotta like ya as a student or apprentice sooner or later, right?

              In the meantime, knowing how to order food and where to find the toilet are pretty important things to know, too. Good luck to you, Michael!
              http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

              Comment


              • #8
                sorry for the misunderstanding

                Sifu Stier:

                It was my fault for the misunderstanding. No worries.

                I had the real privilege and pleasure to learn from Richard Peck for a year in 2004. He's the first English speaking person I could learn from face-to-face who was willing to put up with me. Personally, I wouldn't put up with me for more than a minute, but my teachers are much more advanced and patient than I am.

                Can't say enough good things about Richard, his wife Iva, and their Chinese Medicine clinic in Plano, TX. I didn't spend much time with Iva, but I was in Richard's Taoist qigong class, which is usually referred to by his Taiwanese teacher's name: Lu Style Qigong. Lu Style is also used for the Tai-Chi Chuan/Bagua/Xing Yi that Richard and Iva teach as disciples of the late Lu Hung Bin. I learned the Beijing Simplified 24 Move Tai-Chi Chuan from Richard. It was the only Tai-Chi Chuan class he was teaching at the time I was there, but it's too bad I didn't learn the Lu Style.

                In the Taoist qigong class, Richard answered all questions and gave all explanations in terms of Chinese Medicine. I had been reading books on Chinese Medicine for about a year: Wong Kiew Kitt, Ted Kapchuck, and another one based on the Five Element from a woman whose name I can't recall. I even had some not-too-bad TCM software for reference. When Richard used Chinese Medicine to answer questions from 25 people in his qigong class, it was like getting a 2 for 1. I was learning Taoist qigong and Chinese Medicine from a real master, all rolled into one.

                There were two classes, the first covered the 14 positions of the qigong, and the second class covered 65 places on the body to tonify prior to doing the 14 exercises. Several of the 65 are repetitions, so it probably covered about 40 acupuncture points. Imagine a group of about 20 people, most of whom did not have any basis in Chinese Medicine and were beginners at qigong, asking questions about 40 different acupuncture points for an hour every Saturday for almost three months. Richard would gracefully, eloquently, calmly, patiently field every question and satisfy the student no matter how long it took or how many different ways he had to explain it to get the information across. Sometimes he would rely on a practical demonstration if the verbal approach failed after three or four different tacks, but it was really something to see. All I can say is he's a great teacher by any measure.

                After the two different qigong courses (14 exercises and Point Stimulation), Richard and Iva taught a weekend seminar of their most useful 20-30 points, when to use them, when not to use them, how to locate them, etc. This was only for hand or finger stimulation, nothing with needles. Sort of beginner tui-na. The class was meant to teach you how to help your friends and relatives get over stomach aches, headaches and the like. Over the course of a Saturday and Sunday, a group of people paying something like $250 each got to hear the most useful acupuncture points from two masters' experience over the past 25 plus years in clinical practice. Absolutely priceless.

                Because of my Pan Gu Shengong background and self-study with Chinese Medicine in books and Sifu's (Wong) online Q & A, the knowledge Richard and Iva spoon fed the class over that weekend sunk right into my mind. Also, being around real masters like that, you get the confidence to apply the knowledge. Priceless. If only I could have brought Richard to China with me. He's one of the few things I miss from Texas, besides State Fair Corny Dogs and The Alamo.

                FYI, anybody reading this and wondering if I am showing proper respect to my teacher, let me explain. Richard Peck is my teacher, and is a master, but he doesn't use any titles. All his patients and students call him Richard. Although it's different than Shaolin Wahnam and traditional kung-fu culture, trust me, it works fine for him. If you ever want to see real Tai-Chi Chuan, you don't need to see Richard fight or give a demonstration, you can just watch him talk to someone. Tai-Chi is in his blood.

                The week I recently spent at Sifu's Intensive Kung-Fu Course in Sungai Petani, Malaysia was excellent. In the coming weeks, I will have an idea how well I can benefit from his very high level teaching, which is more than I expected, and I had fairly high expectations.

                I am looking forward to see what sort of other learning opportunities will present themselves during the next five years. I am on a five year plan to become completely fluent in Cantonese, and to use a martial art system to balance my yin and yang qi. Currently I'd say it's about 90/10 yang/yin. Like to get it down to something workable in the 60/40 range, and it's going to require learning methodically and systematically how to fight with real gong-fu, whatever the style may be. If there is any opportunity to learn more about Chinese Medicine (outside the classroom), I will jump at if faster than a frog on asphault on a hot summer day in Texas.

                Michael
                Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
                Take frankness and friendliness to heart.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Your reply

                  Michael, Nay ho ma?

                  Thank you for your interesting reply. I had a hunch that you may have studied with Sifu Peck. Richard and Iva are wonderful people! Always so cordial and pleasant. I met both of them when I began officiating at the United States Kung-Fu Wu-Shu Association tournaments about 16 years ago at the encouragement of another Dallas based Sifu, John Painter. Put me and Richard and John in the same room together socially, and there is sure to be alot of good humor. We've all been around the block a time or two now, and are often highly entertained by what we see at these kung-fu tournaments! Especially as many people are still inclined to think that we can't possibly know what we're talking about since we aren't Chinese! I will probably see Richard again at the upcoming annual Taiji Legacy hosted by Sifu Jimmy Wong in Plano. Should be fun. I'll greet him for you there.
                  http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X