A Discussion on Yielding

[Hubert]

(remember that this word does not encapsulate the actual meaning of the word in Chinese)

Wuji,

The english translation might not perfect, but when you have developed and can apply the skill of yielding, it doesn't matter anymore - you know what it means.

In my experience you certainly don't move forward when yielding. Nor do you avoid the attack. You can do so, it can work very well if executed properly and in the right situation, but that's not using the concept of yielding.

...the confrontation ultimately comes to a point where it is necessary for the defender to abandon further attempts at yielding or avoidance, and now step forward into the heart of the confrontation...

Sifu Stier,

Is it then your opinion that yielding and counter-attacking are separate?

[Sifu Stier]

Yes, of course. Clearly, it is possible to yield or give way to an attack without counter-attacking. Simply leaning backward to avoid a blow, such as Western boxers often do, or simply stepping or shifting sideways and rotating the body trunk to yield to a straight, frontal push, or to withdraw the front foot and perhaps lift it off the floor to avoid an attempt to trip or sweep it, are a few of many examples. In each case, if such yielding is done without following up with a counter-strike, the defender has yielded without countering, right?

However, technically, it is generally the case that a counter-strike will be preceded by a 'neutralization' of some kind. This is the term my Master always used, and is a word that I like alot better than 'yielding' in reference to defensive techniques. 'Yielding' is defined as 'giving way to', and carries a psychological implication of 'backing off' and 'withdrawing from' which is not evident in the performance of the Tai-Chi Chuan Form Sets of any of the major, traditional styles. 'Neutralization', once properly understood in relation to Tai-Chi Principles, can be performed by someone with expertise in any direction....while stepping or shifting backward, forward, diagonally, or to either side.

With very few exceptions, the suggested examples shown in the Form Sets employ the execution of 'neutralization measures' performed while stepping forward and either simultaneously executing a countermeasure or executing the countermeasure immediately following the 'neutralization' as its natural conclusion. This is true of 'Ward Off', 'Brush Knee Twist Step', 'Parting The Wild Horses's Mane', 'Jade Maiden Works The Shuttles', 'Needle At Sea Bottom', and most other striking techniques in the Old Yang Style of Tai-Chi Chuan.

As I said, there are a few exceptions in which the body is moved backward to neutralize while simultaneously performing a counterstrike such as 'Step Back To Repulse Monkey' or 'Retreat To Ride Tiger'. In other instances, a neutralization is executed while shifting the weight backward in a fixed stance prior to executing the countermeasure while shifting forward again such as 'Roll Back' followed by 'Press Forward' or 'Split and Push'. These examples are, however, but a small fraction of the overall number of techniques.

Additionally, postures such as 'Wave Hands Like Clouds' execute a neutralization immediately followed by a countermeasure while stepping sideways, either toward or away from the attack. And some kicks are executed while stepping diagonally forward, using the hands to redirect incoming attack away from the defender's centerline while simultaneously applying the kick as a countermeasure.

I didn't invent these methods, I only trained hard for a really long time to master them. Those who practice some of the modern, short sets of Tai-Chi such as the 'Beijing Simplified 24 Forms Set' may not realize that many of the postures in the 'Simplified Tai-Chi' are taught to be performed differently than the same postures are performed in the longer traditional sets. The examples of the 'Simplified Tai-Chi' have the practitioner shifting backward in between many of the postures prior to taking a new step. This is shown in its performance of 'Parting the Horse's Mane', 'Brush Knee Twist Step', and other postures as well. Thus , if this is the primary Form Set of a given practitioner, the primary 'role model' per se, then it would be easy to assume that the examples of that set are typical of all Tai-Chi chuan Sets, when in fact they are not!

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

I have enjoyed reading the posts that this thread has started to generate. Today I would like to share with you a little secret (we in Shaolin Wahnam share a lot of secrets).

As I regard Sifu Stier as a friendly sparring partner in this debate, and not as a deadly opponent, I left an opening for him to come in to attack me. In my post on Sifu Stier's response to a jab or punch, I said that it was “inadequate”. I proposed a few other alternatives, one of which was to slap the opponent's jab or punch away with my left hand along with the opponent's momentum, and instantly thrust a right cup fist into his ribs, using the Tai Chi Chuan pattern "Punch Below Sleeves".

Earlier Sifu Stier agreed that the examples he cited were low level because he found many forum members were not sifus. This implied that he had higher level techniques. So I left an opportunity for him to come in and “attack” me with his higher techniques so that we could have a debate, hopefully from which all could benefit.

But for whatever reasons, Sifu Stier did not take up this opportunity. So I would like to fill the gap myself. The technique Sifu Stier mentioned is also used in our Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan. In fact it is one of the first lessons my Sifu, Sifu Wong, teaches to Tai Chi Chuan students. The pattern to implement this technique is called "Immortal Waves Sleeves" in our school, and is called "peng" in Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

Sifu Stier showed only the third (and last) part of the continuous process, missing the first two parts. I do not know about Sifu Stier's intension in this case, but leaving out some parts was a common practice among Kung Fu masters in the past so as to preserve their secrets. But here I do not have to apologise to Sifu Stier for sharing the secret, because I am now talking about Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and not Tai Chi Chuan in Shen Men Tao. Actually it is not much of a secret in our school. We not only teach this to beginning students, we also openly explain this to the public in our websites. If you look at the video clips in Sifu Wong's website, you can find a lot of examples.

The first part of this continuous process, here implemented in the pattern "Immortal Waves Sleeves", is yielding. The second part, which follows without a break from the first, is turning the opponent's momentum back to himself. And the third part, which again follows continuously from the second, is going into the opponent, and striking him if desired.

The movement, therefore, is not just going directly forward, as Sifu Stier mentioned. First we yield, then we deflect, and lastly we return the momentum to the opponent, using his initial momentum. This is using the opponent's force against himself. If you miss out the first two parts, as in Sifu Stier's case, it is using force against force.

If the opponent's attack travels from north to south, for example, the first part of the countering process is from north-north-east to south-south-west. This is the yielding part, and the movement is not executed by the hands but by the rotation of the waist. The second part, which deflects the opponent's attack and turns it against him, travels from south-south-west to north-north-east. The change of direction is not abrupt or angular, but smooth and circular, and is in three dimensions. The movement is again not executed by the hands but by rotation of the waist. The third part, which is using the opponent's force against himself, continues from south-south-west to north-north-east or north-east. Here the hands move as a continuation of the waist rotation. All the three parts, which represent yielding, deflecting and countering, are in one smooth continuous movement.

Now as I teach Shaolin Kung Fu and not Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, how do I know all these Tai Chi Chuan principles and practice? The simple reason is that they are also found in Shaolin Kung Fu. "Immortal Waves Sleeves" in Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan is similar to "Beauty Looks at Mirror" in Shaolin Kung Fu. Moreover, Sifu discusses these principles and practice freely with us.

I promised to find pictures and videos to highlight the themes in this thread, but in all the excitement forgot to post them. I shall do so over the next few day, so that people like myself can better understand the principals by seeing them, instead of just reading them.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Sifu Stier]

Whatever, Marcus!

Apparently, since my knowledge is viewed as so "shallow" and "flawed", and my applications are all wrong, I guess it's just repeated 'dumb luck' and ongoing miracles that enabled me to survive literally hundreds of combat missions, and well over two hundred challengers or ambushers since then without being seriously injured or killed, without knee injuries, without defeat...doing exactly what I have described.

So guess what, Marcus? I really don't care whether you agree with my views or approve of my methods or not. My 'direct personal experience' has proven to me that what I learned and practice actually works in hard-core, life and death fighting. Are you that confident in your methods? There is much that you obviously don't know or understand about Tai-Chi Chuan. It is clear from reading each of your posts. Perhaps your Master will be able to fix that for you, but I will not. So stop using me as your example of what not to do, and don't look for any future posts from me on this thread.

Doc

[Hubert]

Simply leaning backward to avoid a blow, such as Western boxers often do

Ah, it seems it has now become a question of semantic. For me, the above is not an example of yielding in a taijiquan or shaolinquan context. But I suppose it is it the broad sense of the term (i.e "giving way to").

Interestingly, because I am french and didn't know the english term before I learnt it from shaolin Kung Fu, I associate it with the actual technique (i,e "neutralizing", or "swallowing", or something like that - it is easier to demonstrate than to describe!).

Ah, when words fail us...

anyway, Sifu Stier, I certainly hope you can "neutralize" Marcus' points by something else than not posting anymore - it would be a shame as we start to uncover the dark secrets of yielding

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

At last, for those of you like myself who accept that "a picture paints a thousand words" here's one better, a video. This video (picture stills of the video with explanation can be found here) illustrates clearly that "Yielding" is a continuous, and not an isolated, process.

This is not an advance level teaching in Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, it is taught to beginning students in their first lesson of pushing hands.

I will post more appropriate video and picture links highlighting themes in this thread tomorrow. I really must get on with finishing this months Shaolin Wahnam Institute - UK newsletter. For all those who have subscribed, please accept my apologies for it being late.

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Antonius]

Dear everyone,

For those who are curious about Shaolinquan yielding, there is an example at the beginning of this video here.

The pattern I use is called "Lohan Hitting a Gong."

Dear Sifu Stier,

If there is much that Sifu Santer does not know about Taijiquan (which is certainly true), then why don't you enlighten us instead of repeatedly running away from the discussion. Or is that your way of illustrating your concept of yielding?

There is more than one way to skin a cat. From Sifu Santer's (and also my own) perspective, they way that you describe yielding doesn't sound like yielding. It sounds like something else. Maybe it is something else, but I'm still not clear on the concept.

In the absence of pictures and videos, you will need to use words to clarify you concept. Luckily, you are a good writer, Sifu Stier. Some masters cannot even string together an intelligible sentence. Thanks to your skill in writing, you can communicate your concepts and ideas to many people.

The discussion will benefit many people. So let's discuss! As Sifu Kai would say, "no emotions."

[Andrew]

My 'direct personal experience' has proven to me that what I learned and practice actually works in hard-core, life and death fighting

Sifu Stier,

I don't think anyone doubts your prowess as a fighter. I think what is attempting to be said (please, everyone, do correct me if I got this wrong) is not that you are not a good fighter, but that the concept of yielding you have presented thus far does not match our (others') understanding of the same.

Without refering to Sifu Stier's fighting skills, I think it is true to say that there are many excellent fighters out there from many styles (or even with no style) who have many many victories under their belts. But this has no implication on their understanding of the finer concepts in Taijiquan or Kung Fu.

Andrew

[steve]

Yielding

Hi

I don't log on very often, but in the last 3 times there has been some interesting squobbling

I haven't read all the posts, so please forgive me if I'm repeating what has been said.

My understanding and experience of yeilding: Let me start by saying what it is not; Yielding is not retreating, withdrawing, deflecting, glancing, absorbing, angling, dodging, etc, but if one is trained correctly, yielding will be present in all those actions.

Before one is able to yield properly one needs to have aligned the point on top of the head, tantien and yongchuan (kidney 1 point under the feet), to have a sense of a line through the body to the ground. Sinking ability, a root needs to be developed. Together with the root and the alignment, suspension, a lightness issuing up from the ground to the head, which has the feeling one is hanging from above. The body will have a lightness, but strongly rooted. The pelvis remains level and it appears likes boat floating on water, if one looks with a subtle eye.

How to yield? You need to be suspended (as mentioned); Lets use a push as an attack and you allow them to place their hand on your chest for example. As their hand touches you, you have no intention, you give up all resistence in that area, like one link in a chain loosens. Mentally you soften that area allowing any pressure to sink into the ground. At the same time you are descerning full and empty. At the moment his attack is full and you are emptying. Another way of saying this, is you are attached, but detached, but attached. Meaning you are physically attached, but the attacker doesn't have a lock (a solid position) on you, but you have a sense of his/her suspension/ alignment/ balance. Your body will follow him/her accordingly, this is done by allowing your body to move naturally in this suspended state, which could even be directly forwards in some cases. Often the body will release in a spiral action emptying the attack, which then you the yielder has now become full, possible potential to issue the attacker, if he/she doesn't yield/ empty with no intention. In practise this can be played with, your partner can push you, follow you and you follow his centre without resistance, until you come back to a point of advantage. (Invest in loss, much falling for a long time). A punch can be neutralised using yielding in this manner, obviously the force of the punch would have to be emptied instantly, but if done correctly you would stick to that fist making it awkward for the attacker to balance.

No! Bobbing and weaving is not yielding! Yep, nor is acting humble or sulking! Nope! not lying on the floor playing dead either!
Happy yielding

[Marcus]

Good evening everyone, I hope you have had an enjoyable weekend.

Way back in post#1 of this thread I wrote:

Yielding is to lead the opponent to futility, then his attacking momentum is turned against the opponent himself, thus completing the yang part of the yin-yang harmony. This continuous process is expressed in Chinese as 'xian hua hou ji', which means 'first neutralize then attack'. In Shaolin Kung Fu it is expressed as 'dun du', or 'swallow-shoot'.

Here is an example of Dun du, or Swallow-Shoot, taken from my personal favourite, the Dragon-Tiger set:

Suppose I have just pressed and attack forward against my partner using the pattern “A Lohan Goes out of the Cave” see fig1.

Because my body is leaning forward it becomes a tempting target for my partners attack. No matter if the attack is a kick or a punch I can respond with “To Tame a Tiger with a String of Pearls” see fig2. Shifting of the body from the front leg to the back leg, without moving the legs, to ward off an attack is an expression of the “Swallow” technique.

After my partners attack is spent I “Shoot” forward to attack him using “A Hungry Tiger Catches a Goat”. See fig3.

More later

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Luo Lang]

Dear Marcus Siheng,
Great example and great pics!
Many thanks for sharing your profound knowledge and experience with us.

taken from my personal favourite, the Dragon-Tiger set:

I am pretty sure that the dragon has many, many possibilities of the swallow-shoot principle

Looking forward to see more...

Warmest regards,

Roland

[snowcelt]

Hello all,

I have been following this thread with interest, not the unpleasantness, the actual part about yielding. Although I don't practice kung fu, I wondered if my limited experience of fencing might bring some insight. I practice 15th century based italian style fencing for longsword (hand and a half sword-Fiore dei Libeiri).
Ok, in it's basic form we also train unarmed to learn good stances and wrestling/grappling, as well as locks and throws. If the footwork is poor in unarmed form, then you can forget about the rest, be it with dagger, longsword or poleaxe.
As we have been taught about yielding, the above pictures by Sifu Santer would to my mind resemble more "avoidance". This is just my opinion though. For me, yielding involves making and maintaining contact with the incoming fist/blade, and moving so as to "steal" the energy/force and putting this back onto the attacker. I am talking purely physical force here, not internal. This can be done by shifting the body weight back onto the back foot and pivoting from the waist, but it can also be done by moving forward into the oncoming attack. Not directly, but obliquely, so that you are not trying to stop force with force, rather to redirect it. This forward movement can be done to the inside or outside of the attacker, and once you have stepped off the attack line, you have closed your own line and opened his, leaving you free to counterattack.
With a blade, the principle is exactly the same but easier to see. Suppose an attacker stepped forward and struck a downward blow at 45 degrees from your left to right. With your right foot leading you could for example step obliquely forwards and "away" from the blade, raising your sword with the hilt held high and to the right, thus covering your head and body. As the blades make contact, you don't try to stop the blow but keep the wrists relatively relaxed, thus yielding to the attacking blade. This energy is then "stolen" such that your own blade arcs around and back to the attacker. A second small step with your back foot puts you back in guard position but now offline. However hard the attacker strikes, by stealing this energy, your sword will be directed back at him all the faster.

Apologies for the long-winded descriptions, and my apologies if this is totally off-topic.

Best regards,

Kevin.

[Marcus]

Hello Kevin,

I really enjoyed your post, thankyou for sharing. Your point about the Dragon-Tiger picture sequence appearing to demonstrate "avoidance" is well taken. This was a demonstration of Dun Du or "Swallow-Shoot". Perhaps a better demonstration of Yielding in Shaolin Kung Fu would have been combat sequence 6 "Dark Dragon Draws Water". If time permits in the next few days I will take some photo's and post them here. Though you can find also view them by following this link.

Today I'd like to share with you pictures taken from the Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan Pushing Hands Series 1 that demonstrates Xian Hua Hou Ji or "first neutralise then attack".

Picture 1 shows Sifu Javier (Tai Chi Chuan Instructor, Spain) and Sifu Riccardo (Tai Chi Chuan Instructor, Italy) in the "Peng" position.

Picture 2 shows Javier moving his right arm forward into Riccardo.

Picture 3 shows Riccardo sinking his body backwards to "swallow" Javier's force and deflect his arm to the right in a smooth circular movement.

Picture 4 shows Riccardo moving his right arm towards Javier. Javier repeats the sequence of sinking his body backwards to "swallow" Riccardo's force.

In Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan this sequence is repeated many times.

For a much better and fuller description click here

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[yeniseri]

definition / perspective

kelt,

In picture 1 i see Marcus advancing to deliver a hammer blow to opponent's head or shoulder (angle), But he may have missed and the opponent advances and Marcus shifts to rear with limited feet positioning and in 3, he brushes knee, hands and delivers hit to body.

Is shifting weight yielding? It may depend on definition since the other 'opponent' is not there, it bascially follows Antonius video link (without the partner).
As a former university fencer, an initial response for me would be to allow the other to force and at same time go under the blade to hit or shift place from high to low and hit/tap. It depends on body physicality and ability to see/negotiate angles and how to manuever. One is basically using the opponents extension (degree) to one's bets advantage, or it may be that the extension is a trap to control me. Similar to tuishou practice.

[steve]

Hi

"First neutralise then attack" can be misinterpreted... as withdrawing to the rim of the attack, then by attacking back. That is not yielding! To yield you need to give up all, meaning no resistance between you and the attacker and no resistance between you and the ground, And there must be no intention.

With the sword play: It sounds like the surface level of yielding, where the body/arm/blade/etc redirects/circles the force. The ground needs to be in the picture when it comes to yielding properly with no intention.

Looking at the pictures: Riccardo sinks back, but he is still held... he's still holding onto his strength... if Javier rooted keeping his position, without retreating, Riccardo would struggle to return (from my experience training with Wahnam students... my guess is if the return was difficult, he would use his stance power, directing his internal force or he would change by applying another technique.. just a guess). If Riccardo emptied Javier by giving up all, by emptying himself, so that his body would naturally move Javier back from the ground. In other words, in yielding you would need to empty yourself to empty your attacker, thus getting under his centre, and without any intention you naturally have control of the attacker's centre.

You would only be able to pull this off if you were able to "sit" in your stance in a suspended relaxed state and if you check the tension of your thighs, that they are not rock hard... there should be a good level of softness... ideally like cotton.