A Discussion on Yielding

[Marcus]

Todays focus is on.

Hello all,

Just settling into my new home.

I started this thread with the intention of using a debate between myself and Sifu Stier on the subject of Yielding to benefit everyone's understanding. In the absence of fresh input from Sifu Stier I shall continue by exploring past posts he has made on this subject. I'm sure there is still a lot we can all learn.

Let us examine his concepts and techniques in pieces (see my previous post above for the full quote):

'Tai-Chi Chuan defensive responses generally move forward into the attack, rather than retreating from it.'

This is against fundamental Tai Chi Chuan principles. This concept of moving into the attack advocates meeting force with force, whereas Tai Chi Chuan is particularly well known for avoiding meeting force with force.

Sifu Stier's mention of

'rather than retreating from it'

Shows a basic understanding of yielding; 'retreating from it', or yielding, is only the first part of a counter, followed by deflecting, then continuing to counter-strike the opponent.

I'll have some more for you tomorrow, until then I wish you well with your practice.

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Emiko H]

Dear Marcus,

I am finding this thread both informative and stimulating. I hope that all participants, (not just Sifu Stier or the Shaolin Wahnam instructors), are benefitting from this thread.

Please do continue.

Respectfully,

Emiko

[Marcus]

Goodmorning to everybody,

Thankyou for your kind words Emiko

Today I'd like to explain why I find this statement by Sifu Stier to be flawed

''Peng' or 'Ward-Off' for example expresses dynamic forward motion both energetically and physically.'

It has been several years since I practiced Tai Chi Chuan regularly, but I can still remember some of the basic principles. You can imagine my surprise then that somone of Sifu Stiers experience would write such a statement. I find it hard to believe that Sifu Stier does not understand or appreciate basic Tai Chi Chuan principles like:

• Rotating from the waist
• Before one moves forward, he moves back
• Before one moves to his left, he moves to his right

The 'peng' technique, or 'Immortal Waves Sleeves' as it is called in Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, is instrumental in teaching and learning these principles. Both energetically and physically, 'peng' or 'ward-off' does not express dynamic forward motion; it expresses spiral circular motion.

In other words, when a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner performs the 'peng' or 'ward-off' technique correctly, both his energy flow and his physical movement moves not directly forward but in a spiraling and circular manner.

I'll post more tomorrow. Enjoy your practice.

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Andrew]

That is an excellent point Marcus. It reminds me of "Beauty Looks At Mirror" in Shaolin Kung Fu. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the "Peng" and "Beauty" are very similar (if not identical) in many ways.

I'm excited to watch and once again compare and contrast Taijiquan with Shaolin Kung Fu.

Thanks,
Andrew

[joko]

I'm excited to watch and once again compare and contrast Taijiquan with Shaolin Kung Fu.

There is an expression: Shaolin Kung Fu begins from hard to soft; Taijiquan progresses from soft to hard.

I wonder what the explanation is.

Thanks,
Joko

[Andrew]

Excellent question Joko. May I suggest you ask it in a new thread --- this thread on yielding is becoming extremely interesting with Marcus' insights and it would be a shame to go off-topic.

Thanks,
Andrew

[joko]

Thanks, Andrew Sihing.

Now, back to topic.

In other words, when a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner performs the 'peng' or 'ward-off' technique correctly, both his energy flow and his physical movement moves not directly forward but in a spiraling and circular manner.

When we look at patterns 'Immortal Waves Sleeves', and Push Boat According to Flow' in 'Grasping Sparrow Tail', and then we examine other patterns like: 'Wild Horse Mane' , and 'Diagonal Slanting', I wonder regarding the body work (including rotation from the waist), and apart from the hand forms, whether the above patterns have similar movements.

Thanks,
Joko

[Sifu Stier]

And so it goes...from bad to worse!

I address this post to everyone who has followed the well orchestrated campaign of personal denigration and professional defamation which has been waged against me on this forum...primarily led by Marcus Santer.

In light of continuing insult and disrespect, I have chosen not to participate in any discussion of this high-jacked topic in this spurious thread. I have not and will not do so. And so...meanwhile...it has been quite entertaining to note the conclusions made about the quality of my Tai-Chi Chuan...WITHOUT EVER HAVING SEEN ME PERFORM! Apparently...my detractors have never read any of the many posts I have submitted previously regarding Tai-Chi Chuan and other Internal Martial Arts...or simply have not understood what I wrote. They are keen to discredit me as a Master, and to tarnish my reputation as a professional teacher. More examples no doubt of 'courteous treatment' given to outsiders!

In conclusion...by continuing to target me with further verbal slanders and insults, Marcus proves once again that he is the perpetrator and perpetuator of ongoing conflict where none need be. Still no yielding, only more attacks...which I predict will now accelerate in number and intensity following this post. In so doing, he and any others joining in his mean-spirited campaign continue to bring personal embarrassment and shame upon themselves. Very sad indeed!

[Chiahua]

In other words, when a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner performs the 'peng' or 'ward-off' technique correctly, both his energy flow and his physical movement moves not directly forward but in a spiraling and circular manner.

Perhaps that's what Sifu Steir meant when he said 'dynamic' forward energy. Even in apparently straight or direct seeming moves in taijiquan, there is some degree of circularity--the waist rotation may be so subtle that it's unseen by the eye and can only be felt.
In the example cited above, it's arguable this is an example of yielding, because you are moving forward into an attack. However, 'yielding' is just a word and could be used an many levels of analyses. In a tactical sense, you're certainly not yielding, you are crowding into the opponents space to suppress him or at least frustrate efforts to do further harm. On a minute level, it's possible there is a tiny degree of neutralization--maybe a tiny bit of retreat or "absorption" in the peng-arm to guide the punch where you want it to go. And sometimes, that tiniest degree of yielding may be enough to throw off the energy. But it's difficult to see that infinitesimal degree.

Regards,
Chia-Hua

[Nicky]

Dear Sifu Stier,

It is good to see you presenting your expertise once again on this thread – I did enjoy your recent post (#23).

In this post you expressed concern that:

...my detractors have never read any of the many posts I have submitted previously regarding Tai-Chi Chuan and other Internal Martial Arts...or simply have not understood what I wrote.

In some of the more recent posts (16 and 18) of this thread, Marcus quotes some of your views on yielding from recent posts and then discusses these views according to his experience. In what ways do you feel he misunderstood what you wrote? I am keen to benefit from your further explanation.

Also from your post:

They are keen to discredit me as a Master, and to tarnish my reputation as a professional teacher. More examples no doubt of 'courteous treatment' given to outsiders!

Sifu Stier, you are certainly no outsider to this discussion forum! You are a frequently posting member who many people enjoy discussing things with. Marcus is one of my Sihings that I have had the pleasure to train and talk with many times and I assure you he would derive no pleasure from discrediting any individual, least of all a Grand Master of an internal art. He is though, always keen to listen to others opinions and to benefit himself and others through discussion.

After all, people taking part in a discussion forum can only truly sketch a persons character from the way that person conducts themselves in their own posts. I am sure that all the participants on this forum, as well as people in your everyday life are quite able to get to know you based on your own comments and actions and not through hearsay. Indeed recently there have been a great number of requests for you to post your insights and knowledge on this and other threads.

It is truly fortunate that you are a Grand Master of an internal martial art system, which would readily enable you to let emotions, perceived attacks and insults just ‘wash away’. I know that I am deeply grateful to my Sifu for helping me to develop this very useful skill.

I do hope that you will take the time to reply to my questions Sifu Stier, and look forward to many future discussions with you.

With kind regards,
Nicky

[Marcus]

Hello all,

Just a quick reply.

What a shame, for a moment there I hoped Sifu Stier would bring something interesting to this discussion. Sadly he is missing the point and now accuses me of disrespecting the quality of his Tai Chi Chuan. As he correctly states, how can I when I have never seen it? It’s not like there is any material featuring him on the Internet from which I could form any opinion. Sifu Stier I apologise if my posts to date have given you this impression.

Moving on,

Sifu Stier recently mentioned that he found many of the forum members lacked

“the experience and expertise of a Sifu, and as such might find simple, “low level” examples and analogies easier to understand.”

This is a perfect opportunity for me to bring to the readers attention that the high level techniques and deep level concepts that I have used so far in this thread (though in relative terms compared to the repertoire of techniques and concepts available in the Shaolin Wahnam Institute, it is more appropriate to call them basic principals) are actually meant for our beginning students. They learn them even in our most basic regional Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kung Fu classes. Examples are found in Stationary Pushing Hands in Tai Chi Chuan classes and in basic combat sequences (like 'Dark Dragon Draws Water') in Shaolin classes. When time permits I shall provide video links for those who wish to investigate further.

Sifu Stier, I am surprised that you have failed to notice the great number of Sifu’s including Grandmasters that read this forum. So now is a good opportunity for you to share your high level techniques and deep level concepts, of which I am certain you have many, but you must be prepared for your techniques and concepts to be questioned.

Right, I’m off to curl up with my wife on the Sofa and watch rubbish on TV

See you tomorrow.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Michael Udel]

silver nitrate

Dear Sifu Stier,

In all the hub-bub, I only just noticed that after Sifu Anthony K.'s last post on the Shen Men Tao thread, the thread was closed. Perhaps permanently? That would be a shame, although Sifu Anthony did change your status from visiting V.I.P. to "adversary". I'm not sure how literal that is, but.

Anyhoo, since this is apparently the place where one can find you, I'd like to ask a question. And nobody please tell me I'm off topic. This is obviously the "let's teach Sifu Stier some manners" thread. Unless I'm color blind, the green light has been given. It's pretty much a free-fire zone, although that shrapnel sure smells sweet from twenty-thousand feet.

I noted that the current strain of trouble began shortly after chud posted two photos of you in the Shen Men Tao thread. Prior to these photos, Sifu Jeffrey had made several requests about pictures and videos, so I am asking about the reasons why some people are less willing than others to share their photos.

I respect those older than me, especially those from different cultural and historical backgrounds quite foreign to my own, so I'm not trying to make any cracks about your chronological stature, but most people my age and younger are accustomed to having their photo on the Internet on friends' web sites and such, although I have found that most of my Chinese friends in this age category are more sensitive about this than my American friends. Perhaps it's just the fear of Communist oppression, but I think, generally speaking, that Chinese are more discrete and careful than Americans, especially those who survived Chairman Mao.

I am not necessarily asking specifically why it took so long to see photos of you, but do you know of general reasons that people have relating to the Internal Arts for not wanting their photo taken or published? Watching documentaries on TV or reading National Geographic, we've (Americans) always been told that people from small tribal cultures are often quite reluctant to have their picture taken, and we're usually told the person being photographed is afraid it will somehow "steal their soul." There does seem to often be a change of heart about fear of having their picture taken when they learn of the monetary or material benefits that can follow.

Respectfully,
Michael

[Andrew]

And nobody please tell me I'm off topic. This is obviously the "let's teach Sifu Stier some manners" thread.

Sorry to disappoint you Michael, but your post is indeed way off topic and, in my opinion, out of line. This has absolutely nothing to do with teaching "Sifu Stier some manners" as you put it. This thread is about "yielding". Sifu Stier presented some relevant information which is now being discussed -- unfortunately without Sifu Stier's further contributions thus far. It could have been presented by someone else and have provoked the same discussions. In this case, though, it was Sifu Stier.

Unless I'm color blind, the green light has been given. It's pretty much a free-fire zone, ......

Absolutely not. There will be no "fire-free zone" on this forum against any member. If you wish to question Sifu Stier further on the lack of pictorial material available of himself, then please do so either on another thread or in private.

Andrew

[Zhang Wuji]

I actually wrote a long post ofline (most of my posts are written offline anyway), but decided to discard it when I realised that it would cause more problems.

Suffice for me to say that the word “yielding” can be misleading. The word used in Chinese is 化 and it means “neutralising” and even then, that is not complete. What the word really means in Chinese is to change, transform and even reverse. If one accepts this definition, then it is possible to meet an oncoming attack without hard force, and in a forward, spiraling manner.

Also, while the Taijiquan classical principles are universal, they are expressed in words, which are provisional. So, one interpretation of the principles apply in one context and not another (much like the postures themselves). For me, the classics mean something different at each stage of my development, not that they drastically change in meaning, but I see new and deeper aspects all the time.

[Marcus]

Good morning everybody,

Michael, whilst I am interested in the answer to your post, this thread is not the place for your post. As advised, please start another thread.

Zhang Wuji, thankyou for your contribution to this thread, I found your post food for thought.

Today, I'd like to explore this comment of Sifu Stier, as I believe there is a lot we can learn from it's examination:

'So...if I respond to an opponent's jab or straight punch by advancing toward him with either foot while using 'Ward-Off' Form as played in the Set, I will be shifting my weight forward into a Bow and Arrow Stance.'

Using 'peng' against an opponent's jab is low-level. It shows poor understanding of timing and spacing, two very important concepts in combat. It also runs counter to the tenet of using ones strength against an opponent's weakness, In fact, Sifu Stier's response shows the reverse, i.e. using his weakness against an opponent's strength. Let me explain.

A jab is technically much faster than a 'peng' technique. Even when a 'peng' is performed correctly, there are many variations a jabbing opponent can make to clinch victory. For example, he may pull back the jab, and jab again into Sifu Stier's face while the 'peng' continues its motion. Or he may move forward and elbow Sifu Stier's jaw.

There are many effective techniques in Tai Chi Chuan against the fast jab. For example, the Tai Chi Chuan practitioner may use 'Cross Hand Thrust Kick'. He moves diagonally aside, spreads his hands above to distract the opponent, and simultaneously kicks him below (using the strategy "Signal high, strike low"). Here he uses spacing to overcome the opponent's timing. No matter how fast the opponent's jabs are, the Tai Chi Chuan practitioner spaces himself in such manner that they cannot reach him despite their speed.

Nevertheless, if for any reasons the Tai Chi Chuan practitioner wishes to 'ward off' the jab, he should use 'slap hand' instead of 'peng'. A good technique is 'Punch Below Sleeves'. If the opponent jabs with his right hand, for example, assume a left Bow-Arrow Stance and ward off the jab at his elbow with your left palm -- not by moving your left palm but by rotating your waist from left to right in a clockwise movement. Still controlling his arm at his elbow with your left palm, thrust your right vertical fist into his right ribs.

Take note that this warding-off movement is circularly backward, and not directly forward as Sifu Stier advocates. Suppose the opponent's jab is coming in a direction from north to south. Sifu Stier's 'peng' moves from south to north, or from south-west to north-east. This is going against the opponent's momentum, and is against Tai Chi Chuan principles. Your ward-off with the palm moves from north-west to south-east. This is using the opponent's momentum, and follows Tai Chi Chuan principles.

That's all for now as I have to get ready for my "other" job

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha