The style or the teacher?

[stonecrusher69]

I kind of stole this from another thread but wanted to open up a discussing about style vs teacher. the Pro's and con's of each one. Should someone look for the best possible teacher or should one look for a style one finds a liking to?

[George]

Hi Sifu Michael,

I only recently read this so it is fresh in my mind:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/mar04-2.html (A7)

Besides the style of kungfu, the teacher is also very important for your progress. If we were to consider just two factors, I would say the teacher is more important than the style. In other words, it is better to learn from a good teacher who teaches a mediocre style, than from a bad teacher who teaches a good style.

The best choice, I think, is to learn the best possible art from the best possible teacher. Why settle for anything less?


Best wishes,

[Casper]

From my perspective it boils down to your aims and objectives.

I had a lot of friends when I was in China who just wanted to learn Taiji dancing and had fun just doing the forms as a gentle dance without being interested in neither the health aspect or the martial aspect.
If this is the case then I think it doesnt matter as much if you are learning from a genuine taiji instructor.

For my own part, I'd like to learn a martial art that can give me the full package. I did Taijiquan (though it was more dancing) for a lot of years, but was sadly never really able to find any skilled masters who could teach me real taijiquan with both the health- and martial aspect.

Now I'm training Shaolin gongfu (the Wahnam syllabus) under my Sifu (Adam Kryder), who I find to be a complete master in what he teaches. In that sense, for me at least, I wouldnt be to focused on any particular style, but rather finding a competent teacher who would be able to teach me real, guine martial art, and that I have found in my sifu.

Just my two thoughts,

With respect,

Casper

[stonecrusher69]

Hello George and Casper,

I would agree the best would be to have a great teacher in a style you would perfer to study, however that's not always possible for many reasons. A rare style may not be available near you or a good and teacher either. You may find a good teacher but the style may not fit your body type. Say for example your an older person and the style's basics rely heavly on jumpping kicks, very fast movement, with good flexability.If your middle aged with no Gung Fu training and out of shape then this would be very hard style for him to learn IMO.A younger person could adapt much quicker and the learning curve would be much faster,so for the younger person this would be a better choice. For the middle aged person, a style that relys more on natural movements or simple movements would adapt easier then to try to meld his body to that particular style which is unnatural for his body type. I don't think one style is better then another just what is best for the person using it. The closer you can custom make the style to the individual the better and easier it will be for the student IMO.

[Matt F.]

Dear Sifu Mc Ilwrath,

I would say the teacher is more important than the style. A better teacher will be able to transmit more of the style to the student. On the surface, it does seem as though a style better suited to the physical/mental aspects of the student would be the best, however, when you look deeper that may not be fact.

I think the majority of martial arts students will have the easiest time, and possibly the most enjoyment, training in a style that best suits them. A non-aggressive student might prefer a style like Aikido, a student looking to excel in physical exhibition and gymnastic skills may enjoy Wushu. A student with good flexibility may enjoy Tae Kwon Do. A student looking for a "movie" experience may enjoy a highly stylistic animal art. In these examples, if the teacher does not live up to the student's expectations, then the initial desire that brought them to the martial arts could be suffocated.

A student with very limited mobility may decided that a chi kung based style would best suit their condition. Or a young, aggressive alpha-male type student may be drawn to MMA styles. A muscular, physically dominant student may like the hard work and grit of Western boxing. In these examples, a lesser teacher may encourage the attributes that initially drew the student to that style, and contribute to the bad health of the student. Certainly, encouraging less and less movement, or more and more aggression, or more and more physical punishment will not benefit the students.

However, if a student practices a style that encourages the development of a weak aspect in the student, the student can certainly benefit. A middle-aged, inflexible, slow, unathletic student could benefit tremendously from an active kungfu style. A meek, self-conscious student could also develop balancing qualities from practicing a ring combat style. A scattered, hyperactive student could learn control and calm through practicing a style like genuine, traditional Tai Chi. However, it would only be through the direction of a great teacher that the above would happen.

Even in the case of a great teacher that is teaching a complete hogwash style vs. a horrible teacher teaching a pure, marvelous style, my choice would be to train with the great teacher. This teacher would motivate, encourage, and inspire the students. The horrible teacher would not do any of that, and even worse may cause the student to believe even the best martial arts style to be worthless.

When the teachers skill is not so polar, and the styles are a bit closer to one another, the choice still is to pick the better teacher. If, for instance, teacher number one has the ability to transmit 80% of a style that has a potential of 100 points, while teacher number two has the ability to transmit 65% of a style that has the potential of 120 points, then the student will have more potential to benefit from the better teacher.

So, I would say in a teacher vs. style debate, the quality of the teacher trumps the style in nearly all situations.


-Matt

[Matt F.]

The closer you can custom make the style to the individual the better and easier it will be for the student IMO.

Dear Sifu Mc Ilwrath,

Are we teaching kungfu or baby sitting?

-Matt

[stonecrusher69]

Dear drop 360,

To be able to custom fit a style to the student has nothing to do with baby sitting. a good teach can find a way to to make the style fit or work according to his needs. Not every student can reach the same heights or has the same aims for learning a M.A. I used to have a stduent who has had one arm,in this case i had to rethink how to train him and find other ways to compitate for his disability. I did not baby sit him i just found an other way to make what I teach work for him. I had to find a way how one arm could do the work as two.

[Matt F.]

a good teach can find a way to to make the style fit or work

Dear Sifu Mc Ilwrath,

I think you answered your first question!! Nice!

In this example, you changed your teaching method so the student could get the most benefit - the sign of a great teacher. You did not change the style to fit the needs of the student (change a two-handed style into a one-handed style), your teaching was good enough for your student to use one hand to do the work of two. Congratulations! That is quite a high level acheivment!

-Matt

[stonecrusher69]

Hello drop360,

Yes,I answered my own question but I wanted to get everyones view and keep my own to the last other wise what's the point of the post. I'm not looking for a right or wrong just your own personal view. My own view point is only my own. my self as a M.A. when i started out I had many teachers before knowing what I wanted to study and who I wanted to study with.

[Benedikt]

All of the following points are important for development.

Art
Teacher
Student

[Irina]

The best choice, I think, is to learn the best possible art from the best possible teacher. Why settle for anything less?

hahaha, I like it! Yes, why not just take the best :-)))))))))))

[George]

I would agree the best would be to have a great teacher in a style you would perfer to study, however that's not always possible for many reasons. A rare style may not be available near you or a good and teacher either. You may find a good teacher but the style may not fit your body type.

"Best" and "possible" are relative to the practitioner. "Best" depends on the aims and objectives of the practitioner. "Possible" depends on the external (and, more importantly, internal) limits that affect the practitioner. I believe, from personal experience, that it is essential the two are in balance for the practice to be successful in the long term.

An excellent teacher makes the practice better and expands the possibilities for the practitioner.

In the end though, not all arts are suitable for all practitioners and not all teachers are suitable for all students. The reverse is also true in both cases.


Best wishes,

[stonecrusher69]

Good answer.. we all are looking for balance or as close as we can get. Without that I believe a student will leave at some point and find another teacher.

[Andrea]

The best choice, I think, is to learn the best possible art from the best possible teacher. Why settle for anything less?

Definitely true . Yet to answer the initial question if a choice between style and teacher has to be made, I would consider the following two points:

1. A genuine teacher will teach you skills. And those skills are likely to be transferable to any martial arts style, as well as to your life beyond martial arts. A mediocre or low level teacher will teach techniques. But techniques without skills are not very effective and can be learnt with the right skills. I believe this is also the reason why advanced practitioners of our school can easily learn the essence of another style within a few days. Thus I'd say the teacher is more important if one has to choose.

2. As for the style. There are martial arts that are complete. Shaolin Kungfu is certainly one of them. It offers such a wide range of specializations, that everybody will find a "best" option, fitting one's personality, body style, ability and preferences. Thus when choosing a complete style such as Shaolin Kungfu the style might be less of an issue. Other styles however, which focus on certain aspects only, might not be suitable to all or even harmful. Yet if the teacher is genuine he knows what is best for the student. And even if the students makes the wrong choice of style, I believe he is not going to see any harm, if he is a dedicated student and follows the advice of his teacher.

Andrea

[Anton S.]

For a student who aims to start training,
I believe is important to find a teacher who lives what he teaches. If he does and he is radiating health, vitality, happiness. Then the teacher has certainly gained a reasonable level in his art.

Yet it is to find out how he teaches, it is necessary to observe the students. If they radiate happiness, health and vitality. The teacher must be good at what he is teaching.

So having observed these facts, who cares about the style?

On the other hand, having heard of a great style and seen a mediocre, sick teacher. Why start learning from this teacher?

The teacher is the link between the art and the student. And is therefore very important.