Combat Kung Fu

[ironrogue]

These are guys from huang yi hsiangs liniage I believe. Going at pretty hard core.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_xAf_P8Bt4

What do you guys think?

[Old-Liu]

As a personal, tactical insight, I don't like their open hand, close to the opponent guard - that's just asking for your fingers or hand to be grabbed or attacked, surely? I knew a very good JKD instructor who used to do things like elbow your guard hand, lol - I would think an open hand, very close to the opponent, fingers pointing towards him and just held there is an open invitation to have your fingers broken or grabbed. Or your arm.

Otherwise, I thought it looked a lot like Xing Yi and Bagua fusion, some nice ideas and applications, but I'd like to see how the senior students cope with more serious contact - to me, that's when you see whether it works under more pressure. But very interesting - thanks for posting.

[mping]

Very interesting indeed, the forms just jump on sight. The main instructor (I don't know Japanese, sorry sir if I should call you Sifu instead ) seems to have really nice flowing fists.

It is always nice to see live Kung Fu, whether it's a mix like this or a more 'pure' lineage. I would also like to see how do they handle opponents from other schools or styles.

[Wu Jing]

Overall

Hello,

Over all i am not that impressed for a few reasons.

They are good counter fighters
Ok intercepters
And terrible at attacking

I would say that most fighters fit in the above order of skill in hand to hand combat.

Very few fighters ever master the art of attacking. To master the art of attack you must master the art of defense first.

Once you have mastered the art of attack it will be nearly impossible to defend, counter, or intercept you.

[ironrogue]

"Otherwise, I thought it looked a lot like Xing Yi and Bagua fusion, some nice ideas and applications, but I'd like to see how the senior students cope with more serious contact - to me, that's when you see whether it works under more pressure. But very interesting - thanks for posting. "

Well judging from the begining and end stuff, it looks like they do compete in some sanshou events.

Wu Jing: They were moving pretty fast. I couldn't even track some of their hand movements. How are you able to see how good their defence/offence etc is?

[Wu Jing]

Oh yeah

ironrogue,

It is not a question of speed. It is a question of how clean, direct, and effective their attacks are. If you watch the video again you will see that when they attack each other head on there is still some confusion there. It is not clean or that tactical so to speak. When compared to their counter attacks and interception techniques.

There have been very few fighters that i have seen in my time who have mastered the art of attacking.

[ironrogue]

"It is not a question of speed. It is a question of how clean, direct, and effective their attacks are. If you watch the video again you will see that when they attack each other head on there is still some confusion there. It is not clean or that tactical so to speak. When compared to their counter attacks and interception techniques."

Again, i believe that they were moving quick to even see how clean or direct, or effective they were. Im not trying to build them up, Im just saying that im not sure you can really tell. My purpous for putting their footage up was because I thought it was interesting that they were able to go that hard and fast and still look pretty traditional. I would also like to see some full footage of them fighting in a tournament or something as well.

Some things that I personally saw that I didn't like is all of the jumping around. I wonder how different their footwork would look like when they allow joingt locks and throws as well.

[Old-Liu]

Sometimes schools face criticism when really, what we're looking at are the students - which seems counter intuitive, but when you think about it, no one, really, would expect students of just a short time training to be of a very serious level, unless they were natural geniuses or training eight hours a day.

Most people are training a couple of times a week at a medium intensity level - in all martial arts. Which is why when people say 'I do muay thai' or 'I do MMA' it doesn't necessarily mean that they do it to any serious level.

There's a bit of a methodology one can adopt towards video clips of demos - judge the students according to their level, as in, expect students simply to be students - learning, improving, not there yet - is anyone??

Judge the instructors according to like for like - like, judge amatuer instructors according to amatuer level, pro fighters according to pro fighters. Not everyone is able to train all day long.

And then when people spar, look at who they spar against, how much contact, and at what level, etc.

There's a balace to be found between realistic assesment and partisan 'need' to put styles down. Not even a balance, just, we can recognise a good pub footballer as acheiving something good in his league, respecting him for that, without ever needing to 'put him down' for not being David Beckham. Which officially makes this now in to a meandering, pointless waffle! Ha!

[Old-Liu]

Hello,

Over all i am not that impressed for a few reasons.

They are good counter fighters
Ok intercepters
And terrible at attacking

I would say that most fighters fit in the above order of skill in hand to hand combat.

Very few fighters ever master the art of attacking. To master the art of attack you must master the art of defense first.

Once you have mastered the art of attack it will be nearly impossible to defend, counter, or intercept you.

I think that comes about because it's almost always easier to defend than attack - at most sub-professional levels. Attacking is, of course, a skill that requires courage, knowledge, training, technique, etc.

Defending often requires far less energy expenditure because you can simply let your opponent burn energy in attacking, less risk because you can stay covered and reveal nothing. And counter attacking is always to the targets that present themselves, so you don't have to 'make' targets by drawing your opponent out.

A lot of the problem with attacking is courage - which usually, in my opinion, simply stems from a lack of graduated fight training.

[Martin Do]

Hello everyone,

Welcome to the forum ironrouge and thank you for showing the videos for this discussion.

Old Liu, I enjoy reading your posts and agree very much with what you have said above about comparing like with like which I appreciate can be a very difficult sometimes as there are so many variables at play. Old Liu, would you be able to tell us a little about your martial arts background, how old you are and how you came to start practicing martial arts.

Regarding the video clips, I have not been in martial arts for a very long time but from my own training at Shoalin Wahnam over the last two years my observations (as a junior student of my school - thus not an official view) are as follows.

When I saw the initial demonstrations where one person stands still with an arm out and the other demonstrates possible moves. The counters looked good but I feel in reality ie in free sparring, you won't have a partner who stands there with an arm out motioness for even a second. Therefore the test of the skills and techniques would be in free sparring where the movements are free, unpredictable and an everchanging state of movements and spacing between you and your partner.

When I saw the free sparring, a couple of things went through my mind. The emphasis of the attackers seems to be on speed. There seems to be little form, force and flow. Fast gentle touches are fine when you are at a level where you have "sufficient internal force" and application of this internal force to severely harm someone with a touch. However, if you are relying on physical tension to do this then I don't think those fast flicking movements could cause too much harm in general, unless it is to your eyes.

In the free sparring clips, the attackers also appear to be very fixed on coming forward with a set of moves irrespective of their partners counters. There seems to be little skill in being able to stop the attack mid-way and counter your partners counter (or flow with him). This then causes some confusions and stuttering when both partners move forward at the same time or when the defender has not moved back as Wu Jing Sifu had pointed out.

The heaviness of the footwork from the attackers going forward also looks clumsy. Its like a leap forward with a very heavy front leg. It makes me wonder how the following counters from a defender would fare: a powerful side kick to the ribs or knee as the attacker charges forward, sweeping the front leg, moving to the side and simutaneously attacking his groin and eyes (with the pattern Yellow Oriole from our school). The weakness of this charging forward attack at speed was also shown in some clips where one person was able to bend down and wraps his arms around the attackers waist to avoid the hand attacks. I imagine a grappler would love this position where he could throw the attacker onto the ground then have a play with their joints and neck.

The stances in the sparring clips also does not look very solid and agile. Because of this I think they would be very vulnerable to grapplers shoots and felling techniques from other styles. Furthermore, I feel because the stances are not solid, it is difficult to generate good form, force and flow in attack and defence.

I realise I have been more negative than positive about the video clips. It is not intended to disrespect or look down on our kung fu brothers in the video clips. I actually really enjoyed watching the clips as I enjoy watching most kung fu demonstrations. It is simply my own personal observations from my own experience and practice to date. Furthermore, they seem like nice people who are happy and are enjoying their training and for this I am delighted for them and wish them well.

Best wishes and kindest regards

Martin

[Darryl]

Slowly, slowly, catchy Monkey

I enjoyed watching the 'soft' demonstration (from 2:04 - 5:26) and recognised several similar applications within the Shaolin Monkey Set. Since you have to be safe before you can be a cheeky monkey I didn't enjoy the sparring as much. A Monkey will enjoy taking free offers, an easy example of which is from {6:39 - 6:41}.

The video seems to emphasise Flow over Force which is contrary to the Shaolin Wahnam method (Form to Force to Flow). The abrubt nature of their movements also displayed a lack of Force. In my experience, sparring with fast jerky movements agitates the chi and is counter-productive to Internal Force. Speed will still be defeated by the Marvelous.

So; not Safe, not Forceful, sometimes effective and beautiful to watch. I found it's standard to be much higher than the YouTube average and I watched it the whole way through. It is easily one of the most enjoyable martial videos that I have watched there.

[Old-Liu]

Hello everyone,

Welcome to the forum ironrouge and thank you for showing the videos for this discussion.

Old Liu, I enjoy reading your posts and agree very much with what you have said above about comparing like with like which I appreciate can be a very difficult sometimes as there are so many variables at play. Old Liu, would you be able to tell us a little about your martial arts background, how old you are and how you came to start practicing martial arts.

Hi Martin - and thank you. It can be very difficult to get ideas about physical things across with words.

I'm almost 40! I started training as a teenager - in karate. I have trained in a few things - Shaolin Five Animals, Judo, Chen taiji, JKD, some Xing Yi, with various people - no one famous, just friends and local teachers. In my time I've trained and sparred with people from almost every style! But I've never seen a Shaolin Wah Nam class, or, I think, met anyone from that school- so this is my introduction to Wah Nam!

I'm quite interested in all aspects of martial arts, especially sparring, because if you're a bit of a butterfly like me, the one thing you want to try and carry with you is sparring - a lot of those skills, I've found, are very transferable, regardless of style.

[Old-Liu]

I enjoyed watching the 'soft' demonstration (from 2:04 - 5:26) and recognised several similar applications within the Shaolin Monkey Set. Since you have to be safe before you can be a cheeky monkey I didn't enjoy the sparring as much. A Monkey will enjoy taking free offers, an easy example of which is from {6:39 - 6:41}.

The video seems to emphasise Flow over Force which is contrary to the Shaolin Wahnam method (Form to Force to Flow). The abrubt nature of their movements also displayed a lack of Force. In my experience, sparring with fast jerky movements agitates the chi and is counter-productive to Internal Force. Speed will still be defeated by the Marvelous.

So; not Safe, not Forceful, sometimes effective and beautiful to watch. I found it's standard to be much higher than the YouTube average and I watched it the whole way through. It is easily one of the most enjoyable martial videos that I have watched there.

'Flow over force' is a very valid criticism, I believe. Similarly, it's like very fast trapping practice - is it worth hitting people lightly fifty times with all manner of complicated hand traps, when one solid shot would work just as well or better?

[Martin Do]

Dear Old Liu,

Thank you for your reply to my questions. I hope you continue to enjoy participating on our schools forum.

Best wishes and kindest regards

Martin

[ironrogue]

"'Flow over force' is a very valid criticism, I believe. Similarly, it's like very fast trapping practice - is it worth hitting people lightly fifty times with all manner of complicated hand traps, when one solid shot would work just as well or better?"

Those of wing chun would say yes, lol.

It is always difficult to judge a school or a fighter about their fighting prowess without actually seeing them fight. I know that I for one fight much different in a point sparring match versus full contact versus mma settings. For me actually it is easier to be truer to my style in the full contact and mma settings, especially mma. Having to cut short at each technique creates problems. There is also the problem of the purpous of sparring. In point sparring the purpous is hit them and get away before they hit you, which is why you see the bouncing instead of solid stances. In full contact or mma, or the street for that matter, the purpous is to win, ie knock them out, make them tap, kill them lol, etc. Because of this, you dont worry about getting hit as much and you can stay deep in your stance and follow through on all of your strikes, joint locks, throws, etc.

These guys were going fast and they were hitting eachother but obviously not full force as noone was getting hurt or knocked out. I dug that they were trying to stay true to their style but i will say again, it is tough to do so if you cant complete your techniques. Haha, they were fun to watch though.