Old Yang demo with fajing

[beausimon]

Hi,
This is a demo of the Old Yang style done with fajing. Is this similar to the 108 imperial form? It is definitely different from the YCF form that I'm learning.

Old Yang style Demo

[yeniseri]

i c u c

beausimon,

i c u c not all YCF teaching is the same. Laotze like Zhongwen Fu, Zhao Bin and Mei Ying Sheng all bring different perspectives like all other teachers. Some excellent and others not so.

[Michael Udel]

Fa-jing videos

I've watched that Erle Montaigue video before, and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be showing me. It just looks like he's slapping a glove. I contacted one of Sifu Montaigue's students in London, Sifu Paul Brechter, and asked for an explanation of the video. He was very polite but did not care to discuss it. Sifu Montaigue did not respond to my e-mails about the video. I don't have any reason to doubt the abilties of these men, nor would it be my place to do so, but I was disappointed in not getting an explanation.

My Tai-Chi Chuan teacher learned a fa-jing that does not repulse the opponent, but sends qi into them, down to their feet, and then back up their spine, disrupting meridians and disabling them. I was only a new beginner student in the 24 Beijing form, and not in the Lu Style system that teaches this method of fa-jing, so I didn't get a chance to experience it. Sifu Richard Peck demonstrated his fa-jing method on some other students who were wearing upper body padding to minimize the effect, and they described it as above, saying it was a very uncomfortable feeling. Although I haven't had the chance to learn the Lu Style Tai-Chi, Bagua, and Hsing-yi, I have learned its Taoist qigong system at the beginning level and have seen Sifu Peck demonstrate chin-na on me and others. It is absolutely a marvel to see how he moves when showing some chin-na or Tai-Chi. I don't need to feel for myself if his fa-jing is effective, just watching him move shows his mastery.

I know a Yang family lineage master in Boston named Vincent Chu who's fa-jing method is one that can repulse the opponent a long distance. He has some video clips. Demo 1 is not so easy to see, and the clips on Demo 2 and 3 are better. Sifu Chu used to have some clips that I thought were even better than these, but they're no longer on his web site. This web site is my favorite for Tai-Chi Chuan, and the articles are really good. I haven't had a chance to see Sifu Chu practice Tai-Chi in person because I'm not his student, but his understanding of the classics shows not only in his articles, but also in his personality. A lot of good articles have been written by Sifu Chu, and here is one of my favorites. Sifu Chu's article about finding a master is also insightful.

One of Sifu Chu's later teachers is a Wudang Tai-Chi master named Fang Ning, who lives in Guangzhou. I've seen video tape of him using a repulsive fa-jing, and I was hoping for a demonstration, but although I recently had a chance to meet him, he's now retired and we talked more about food and Chinese history than martial arts.

Is it really so tough to find a good fa-jing demo in person? I've met a few people who have seen plenty of repulsive fa-jing demonstrations. Considering my very limited experience with Tai-Chi Chuan, and the number of true masters I've met, I consider myself lucky, but don't think it's that difficult to find a Tai-Chi Chuan master who can "fa-jing".

Michael

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello Everybody,

Based on my own experiences of people who have powerful fajing, I would definitely NOT want them to manifest it on me, no matter what kind of padding or protection I was wearing. I guess I'm quite fond of the way my internal organs function, just as they are now.

I'm not sure how rare fajing is. Many of my Wahnam Taijiquan brothers and sisters (hola Laura ) can manifest it quite well, even if we're still a long way behind the likes of Kai and Sifu.

Explode from your Dantian!

[yeniseri]

perhaps

Most fa-jing I have experienced is in Chen style.

One of my former teachers uncles who did Yang style said fajing is expressed differently in Yang but it shows up in tuishou only. It could be his interpretation (which I tend to agree) but again I have not seen Yang style practicioners do this in the form.

[Sifu Stier]

Eclectic Style!

Having now viewed the video clips of Sifu Montaigue's version of the 'Old Frame Yang Style Long Imperial Set'.....it looks to be to be a blend of stylistic elements from both Chen and Yang Traditional Form Sets. It was not clear to me whether he performs this Set....which seems to follow the Form sequence of Section Three of the Yang Long Imperial 108 Set for the most part.....in this manner as a normal course......or whether this was intended to be a demonstration of how these postures could be performed in application as fighting techniques.

The 'stylistic look' of the fa-jing method being demonstrated looks more like Chen Style Tai-Chi Chuan than Yang Style to my eye. I base this opinion on my own personal experience in practicing both 'Lao-Jia' and 'Xin-Jia' Chen Style Form Sets as well as the 'Old Frame Yang Long Imperial Set'. This is further validated by the performance of some postures as they would normally be performed in a Chen Style Set rather than a Yang Style Set. One example of several is the use of a 'Crossed Horse Stance' (Heng-Ma-Pu) in performing the 'Wave Hands Like Clouds' series.

The fa-jing methods most often employed in the vast majority of the Internal Soft Styles are of a 'crack the whip' style of delivery and release.....rather than a 'focusing through' style. As such......the energy and power tends to penetrate and circulate within the recipient's body....potentially to the internal organ or other target of choice at higher skill levels.....rather than forcefully projecting the opponent backwards or outwards from the strike or kick. Certainly this is not always the case.....but probably most often the case.....as this manner of fa-jing employs a more relaxed...flexible...and speedy use of the body.....which is more akin to normal Internal Arts body usage. This is the type of fa-jing which Sifu Montaigue appears to be using in the video clip.

[joko]

Master Yang Jwie Ming Fa-jing

Hello everyone,

What about this? I enjoyed Master Yang's performance!

http://www.ymaaschool.com/media/audiovideo/audvideos.php#

yeniseri, please look at this clip, Yang style fa-jing.

SifuStier,

I would like to know your opinion.

Thanks,

Joko

[Sifu Stier]

Unique Stylistic Interpretation!

Hello Joko!

Dr.Yang's Tai-Chi Chuan performance is a unique stylistic interpretation of the exercises which appears to express blended elements of the major styles he has mastered. The fa-jing applications look more typical of what is normally seen in the Yang Old Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set.....while other elements of his performance...especially the stances and footwork...appear to be greatly influenced by the Northern Kung-Fu Styles he has practiced and taught for so many years. The overall stylistic appearance of his school has a very 'signature' look as a result. So much so...in fact...that if I saw a total stranger performing Dr. Yang's Tai-Chi Chuan...I would know that they had learned the exercise from him...or one of his instructor students!

[joko]

Thank you, Sifu Stier, for your wonderful explanation.

Joko

[yeniseri]

whatever happened to basics?

joko,

I cheked out the site but did not see anything out of the ordinary or anything extraordinary.
When anyone talks about fajing they fail to mention chansigong, a basic silk reeling movement/series of movements within a specific posture that builds up the intrinsic energy and through fajin, it is sent out to the opponent. I am dumbfounded at the omission.
Someone showed me a tape about West Lake (Huangzhou, I think) where a student of Chengfu, not sure, taught this teacher who seesm to have learnt a principle associated with fajin that many teachers do not show today as they may not know.
The "Taijiquan at West Lake" Series is based on an old Yang style (they say) but it is still in the Chengfu/Zhenduo format. A few minor changes but it is still neither Old nor New. The teacher's name is Dai Peisu. The form is still his variation of Yang style, Old or New.

[Zhang Wuji]

The 'stylistic look' of the fa-jing method being demonstrated looks more like Chen Style Tai-Chi Chuan than Yang Style to my eye. I base this opinion on my own personal experience in practicing both 'Lao-Jia' and 'Xin-Jia' Chen Style Form Sets as well as the 'Old Frame Yang Long Imperial Set'. This is further validated by the performance of some postures as they would normally be performed in a Chen Style Set rather than a Yang Style Set. One example of several is the use of a 'Crossed Horse Stance' (Heng-Ma-Pu) in performing the 'Wave Hands Like Clouds' series.

As usual, StierSifu has hit the nail on the head. I have been wondering for a long time why Master Erle Montaigue's Taijiquan has such a strong Chen-style flavour. He mentions Chansi Jing (Silk Reeling) as part of his Taijiquan force training which got me wondering. As far as I know, while chansi jing IS trained in Yang Taijiquan, it has another name: "luoxuan jing".

Of course, Yang Luchan's own style is certainly closer to the Chen style than that of the Yang style we see today. Like any good student, he would have, in the early days at least, practised what he learnt from his master.
Maybe StierSifu can tell us more of the Imperial Long Set, but my understanding is that the Imperial Long Set became what is known as the Wu2 style today, being the style taught to the bodyguards and the princes. The style that Yang Luchan brought into the capital initially was a form "larger" than the Imperial Long Set and much like the Chen First Routine (Yilu). It was later that the Small Fast/Usage Form was created and this particular style was different from any other styles seen before (From some accounts, this Fast form was created before he went to the capital but it was kept a strict secret all along). As StierSifu mentioned elsewhere, this was a style created by masters to be practised by masters.

My guess is that Master Montaigue learnt the Large Yang style (a misnomer, since the movements can be small in actual combat, and for want of a better phrase) with all its fajing movements as taught by Chen Changxing.

The fa-jing methods most often employed in the vast majority of the Internal Soft Styles are of a 'crack the whip' style of delivery and release.....rather than a 'focusing through' style. As such......the energy and power tends to penetrate and circulate within the recipient's body....potentially to the internal organ or other target of choice at higher skill levels.....rather than forcefully projecting the opponent backwards or outwards from the strike or kick. Certainly this is not always the case.....but probably most often the case.....as this manner of fa-jing employs a more relaxed...flexible...and speedy use of the body.....which is more akin to normal Internal Arts body usage. This is the type of fa-jing which Sifu Montaigue appears to be using in the video clip.

I agree, and I have seen many other demonstrations of fajing by M Montaigue in the long form, not just against the hand mitt. Thanks to my Sifu (ie, Wong Sifu), I have had the wonderful opportunity of experiencing fajing and I can attest that it is indeed a very fast whip like motion, which results in a supreme state of relaxation after release. M Montaigue has said to fajing, one has to totally give up one's ego, and the fajing is peformed with the whole body. It is like a sneeze when the whole body is involved and the eyes cannot even be kept open. What I experienced during the intensive qigong course was not quite like a sneeze, but indeed it was a fully body movement, and totally without tension.

Based on my own experiences of people who have powerful fajing, I would definitely NOT want them to manifest it on me, no matter what kind of padding or protection I was wearing. I guess I'm quite fond of the way my internal organs function, just as they are now.

I'm not sure how rare fajing is. Many of my Wahnam Taijiquan brothers and sisters (hola Laura ) can manifest it quite well, even if we're still a long way behind the likes of Kai and Sifu.

Hi Jeffrey, I certainly do not manifest fajing , but I am eternally grateful to Sifu for leading me to experience fajing. I had read and researched so much about fajing and thought I had brushed the surface during my self-manifested qi movements. But I think those feeble attempts were a far cry from the real fajing.

During the intensive course, Sifu taught me to apply my Taijiquan patterns as part of my spontaneous qi movements, to use my mind to lead the movements. To my immense surprise, my body manifested several what I felt were obviously fajing movements (using the patterns Move Intercept and Punch, and Grasping Sparrow's Tail). I still wasn't sure if those were really fajing, but everything I have ever read about fajing came alive for me

- I was in a totally relaxed state. There was no muscular tension during the fajing.
- the surge of energy was exhilarating and converged on the point of striking
- the body was firmly rooted at the point of fajing
- the "Ha" sound was totally spontaneous
- Power was emitted at very short distances
- the movements were very very fast, something like 3 punches in a second
- the delivery was whip-like, and upon striking, the body became almost limp again just before the next strike (even for the 3 stikes per second fajing, I distinctly felt the body relaxing for an instant)
- I could not do fajing constantly. M Montaigue mentions in several articles that before one can fajing (in the form), there is a slow gathering of the qi before it can be released. this is why in all the forms, fajing is not done throughout. Even in the fast form, there are quiet and tranquil moments to gather the qi for explosive emission. For me, the qi flow led me to a few nice and slow Cloud Hands before I was ready to fajing.

I was actually not prepared to write about this in a public forum, since my experience was a one-off one (actually, not quite one-off, since it happened at each practice sesession). I cannot replicate the fajing in my normal state. It is only when I am in full qi flow that I can get near it. So, I would say I have tasted fajing but I cannot manifest it. I do not want to give the impression that I can fajing at will. To me, it is a hit and miss affair and now that I am back home, I am not sure if I can fajing, even during qi flow.

However, on the last day of the course, Sifu suggested that I write about my experience on the forum. It is really the least I can do for Sifu. I had thought fajing would be a totally unattainable goal, or only attainable in 5 or 10 years. It is amazing how Sifu with just a few words could lead me to perform fajing. I don't know how Sifu can read my mind, or know exactly what is best for me. I was not chasing after the ability to fajing, but I always felt a little incomplete in my Taijiquan practice without it. Like the true master he is, Sifu taught me the right things at the right time (more on this in another thread to follow).

I must also thank my instructor for grounding me in the basics, such as reminding me to sink down each time I do a striking movement, and always correcting my posture. I think that without correctness of form, fajing would have been impossible.

I personally think that fajing should not be attempted on a living person. In my school, we distinguish fajing as "throwing" (paozhi) or as "killing (shashang). The former is a long (chang) jing meant to uproot and send the opponent flying. But I don't think that is fajing in the sense we are discussing here. Like Stier Sifu mentioned, fajing is meant to penetrate the internal organs rather than project someone backwards. And like Jeffrey, I would not like that to be performed on me. I think the uprooting effect is not really fajing but another form of energy emission. Fajing as I experienced it is short, fast and vicious, and is not something I would want to try on another human benig.

So, yes, there is fajing in any form, although some forms lend themselves to fajing more easily than others. I was personally using a form closer to the Yang Chengfu and Wu Jianquan one in my qi flow, forms traditionally used for slow and non-explosive movements. It is really the "yi" or intent that enables the fajing, not the movements per se.

[Ray]

Wuji,

Thanks for sharing.

Divineshadow

[joko]

Dear Wuji,

Thanks for sharing your experience, and congratulations on your wonderful result!

Like the true master he is, Sifu taught me the right things at the right time (more on this in another thread to follow).

This reminds me of my Intensive Course with Sifu in April. Yes, Sifu taught the right things at the right time: that's how I acquired the skill how to tap cosmos energy, and how to lead chi wherever we want. At the right time, Sifu confirmed what I was doing.

Having read your posting here, I realized that perhaps I did also some fajing movements during the self manifested chi flow in the morning session on the second day.

I was personally using a form closer to the Yang Chengfu and Wu Jianquan one in my qi flow, forms traditionally used for slow and non-explosive movements. It is really the "yi" or intent that enables the fajing, not the movements per se.

This realization about "yi" or intent that made me post a thread about "Intention" under Chikung Experience.

Thanks again, and looking forward to your next posting about your wonderful course.

Joko

[jpw]

yang Style demo

Interesting. I like seeing other styles, interpretations, applications as it adds perspective to what i have learned so far.

thank you,

JP

[Ray]

Dear friends,

What's the difference between Chen style and Yang style "fa jing er"? Is there a difference?

Thank you,

Divineshadow