Dragons

[Benedikt]

I am reading the book of sukhavati from sigung and he said that there are beings we cant see with our eyes such as dragons. Now my question is: were people in the past able to see dragons ( did they had more spirituality in the past and so they could see them) ? I'm asking myself because of the storys in the middle age of knights fighting dragons and dragons wich burn villages.

What is also interesting me is: dragons are real even if we cant see them. But do they have a body like a human? If I would jump off a plane with a parachute and me and the dragon would crash would there be an injury of me? ( strange imagintion )

I'm exided to hear a smart guys answer...

All the best

Benedikt

[Andrew]

were people in the past able to see dragons ?

Not only in the past

[Kingmonkey]

Hi Benedict

I'm asking myself because of the storys in the middle age of knights fighting dragons and dragons wich burn villages.

First youf got to see that dragons in the western world mostly had a rather negativ signification and in Asia more or less a positive one...

were people in the past able to see dragons ( did they had more spirituality in the past and so they could see them) ?

I'm sure that in the past as nowadays not everybody had the ability to see dragons. Only really high level masters could if at all possible. I guess you might see them with your inner eye but not with your phisical one....

As dragons seem to be supernatural beings and our human body is only an "illusion", I think they dont have a "body".
You may know that there are different kinds of dragons ( waterdragon, earthdragon, firedragon etc.) and I could imagine that they inhere the element that they represent.

So if..

I would jump off a plane with a parachute and me and the dragon would crash would there be an injury of me?

... you might get caught by a gust of wind and blown of track and might or might not be injured. This could have been a dragon...

[8nsteen8]

-

Dragons, is close to my heart

For me they are Serpents of Lights that holds great wisdom.

This is my thoughts of Dragons and their recent history interacting with Humans:

Humans kind of betrayed them in the past and thus they dissapeared, not because of them but because of us. It was a change of mind and humans started to look at them as evil and thus they decided to draw back into another dimension and Dragons became a myth.

Why we started to perceive them as evil? I think the reason is that since they are Serpents of Light, people with bad intentions will see them as VERY BAD and this view spread. If someone with a close mind stands infront of Pure Light you will feel VERY threatened, full of fear.

So this view of Dragons went into the collective human mind and the Dragons became an enemy instead of a teacher of great wisdom. And the longer the Dragons stayed away the more the memory of them faded away.

The Dragons have waited for Humans to open up for their wisdom again. The Dragons want nothing but to enlighten us, so its up to us if we welcome them again.

If i am not mistaken, in Shaolin the Dragon stands for the Mind. And if you master the mind nothing is impossible and you achieve the marvelous.

So in a sense we all are Dragons, when we realise that, the Dragons will appear and share their wisdom with us, the fear comes from denying who we truly are.

/Niklas

[Andrea]

Why we started to perceive them as evil? I think the reason is that since they are Serpents of Light, people with bad intentions will see them as VERY BAD and this view spread.
/Niklas

There is a cultural reason for this view too.
Within western culture dragons where (and often still are) associated with serpents and a specific interpretation of the biblical account of Creation. In Gen 3,1ff the serpent challenges Eve's understanding of whether or not she is allowed to eat from the "Tree of Life". Thus serpents and with them dragons where understood to be the ones that brought evil (the separation/differentiation of good and bad; and thus the separation from God) into the world. During the Middle Ages both serpents and dragons where considered manifestations of the evil and satan. The word "dragon" comes from Latin "draco" which again means both "serpent" and "dragon" (Remember Draco Malfoy in Harry Potter= the evil guy). Middlle Ages stories such as St.George killing the dragon or all the knight stories about going out to deliver a lady from a dragon are manifestations of this view. Actually there are other interpretations of the Creation account and the Hebrew word used in the Genesis is "nachas" = serpent, while the world more commonly associated with dragon is "tannim" ... But indepently of the interpretation you adopt - the dominant western view has seen dragons as serpents, and considered them evil for centuries. And this is probably one reason why we in the West have often (but not allways ) lost our connection to these beings.

In the pre-Christian western traditions we find other accounts of dragons ... the Greek mythology for example similar as the Chinese tradition knows of different kinds of dragons: Serpent like "Dracones" guarding sacred places, marine "Cetea", fire-breathing "Chimaera" and the mythical Dracaenae.

Another "western" tradition that has seen a renewal is the Celtic one - unfortunately much is lost. Dragons in this tradition are considered as having a gift of vision, wisdom, and prophecy, as the guardians of all knowledge and wisdom. Beautiful beings that link us to both the earthly and heavenly forces. Their dwelling affects the way cosmic energy flows through and affects the land. (I am sure my Irish brothers and sisters could explain this better being at the source ).

So much for the "western" theory

As for the seeing ... do you see the wind ?
You feel it on your skin, you see it move the trees, the clouds, your hair. And you know it is there ... and sometimes you even hear its whispers don't you?

Andrea

[Andrew]

Beautiful and most informative post. Thanks, Andrea.

[Omar]

I remember visiting the website of a chi kung grandmaster who, like Sifu, speaks very openly. I cannot remember the masters name at the moment, but I will edit it in if i do.
He said that at the mountain meditation and chi kung retreats he arranged, one might see dragons and/or past masters, and receive teachings from them. If you were advanced enough.

The western view on dragons I found most interesting is from the late Dr. Carl Sagan. If I recall correct he mentions this in his book "Dragons of Eden", I think its the one he won a Pulitzer price for.
His view is that we (mammals) still remember the dinosaurs (evil western dragons) from far back in the backbones of our minds, and that is why they follow us still in tales and stories. This is a indirect mention of a common cosmic conciousness.

Interestingly, if you ever get the chance to see his wonderful television series "Cosmos" it comes across pretty clear Dr. Sagan was a very spiritual person, even though he represents the top of western science, that suposedly is the direct cold calculating opposite to spiritual teachings.

Just another viewpoint to the same mountaintop..

[barrys]

During the tai chi chuan course in Costa Rica I had an interesting experience.

I think Sifu had led a session of cosmic shower. Anyway, at some point I experienced greeny-blue. It was like it opened its eye and looked at me. It had an impact. Initially scared "What is happening, what does it mean, should I be here". As I let this worry continue but not feed/indulge it, it came to feel more like "I am in a place of importance, this needs to be attended to".

In my mind it became like a blue-green dragon curled around something precious. It was like it had been waiting for me to get there and was now checking me out.

Did I experience a Dragon? My mind came up with the image of a Dragon to make sense of the experience.

What does it mean? Not sure. It certainly woke something up in me . Standing in the temple I had a sense of "free spirit".

With metta,

Barry

[Benedikt]

Thanks a lot for your interesting posts. Joining Wahnam was probably one of the best decisions i've ever made and it's nice to think that again and again and again..

All the best

[Andrea]

Just remember to not do the fire spitting (as on your photo) when eating ice cream haha !

Andrea

[Omar]

Spitting fire? I think it looks like a really really big slice of pizza

[8nsteen8]

-

Here is a book that i think you will like if you are interested in Dragons:

Dragon Fire: Secrets of the Last Dragons by E. Miriandra Rota ISBN 1-59299-035-5

http://www.dragonfiresecrets.com/order.htm

/Niklas

[Bernardo]

I also sincerely thought it was a big slice of pizza!
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Dragons are known as nagas in Sanskrit. Garudas and nagas are or were enemies (the flag of Mexico is probably a representation of this).


Hsuan Hua on dragons (from his commentary on the Flower Adornment Sutra):

Although dragons belong to the animal realm, they have spiritual powers and can make themselves big or small at will. When they are big, they can fill up the entire ocean. When they are small, they can hide away within a mote of dust. They can also appear or disappear at will. Since dragons have such ability to transform themselves in infinite ways, such great spiritual powers and majesty, they should be very happy. However, they also have their own misery. For example, there are myriads of little parasites that bite the dragons, eating their flesh and drinking their blood, making them feel miserable.

Some of you have heard me talk about dragons before. Why did dragons become dragons? Do you remember? In the past they diligently cultivated the Great Vehicle Dharma and practiced the Bodhisattva path, but they had huge tempers and heavy ignorance. They obtained a certain degree of wisdom in response to their cultivation. They were enlightened to a small extent. However, their knowledge and views were not quite proper, and they did not pay much attention to the precepts. They were "quick with the Vehicle and slow with the precepts." They were more courageous and vigorous than anyone else in cultivating the Great Vehicle; however, they were very sloppy about holding the precepts. They said, "Oh, that's no problem--no big deal. All I have to do is cultivate the Great Vehicle Dharma. Only those of the Lesser Vehicle hold precepts. I cultivate the Great Vehicle, which advocates 'holding precepts without holding them.' Although I may not hold the precepts, actually I have them!" This is like some laypeople who claim, "We are the same as those who have renounced the household life."

As for dragons, when they were cultivating in their past lives, they felt they could get away with anything, that they were number one. Because they strove to be number one, because they were quick with the Vehicle but did not hold the precepts, they turned into dragons, Since they cultivated the Great Vehicle Dharma, they gained spiritual powers. But because they did not hold the precepts, they fell into the animal realm. Therefore, cultivators should not be sloppy. If you don't follow rules, in the future you might fall into the realm of dragons.

Hsuan Hua on dragons (from his commentary on the Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra):

The peng birds had been eating the dragons for quite a while, until finally the dragons were on the verge of extintion. The reason we don't see dragons around in this world anymore is because, for the most part, they were eaten by the peng birds. If, however, the dragons became extinct, the peng birds would have nothing to eat and would also starve. This is why we don't see many peng birds around either. As the dragons disappeared, the peng birds lost their sustenance and began to diminish as well.

Hsuan Hua's anecdote with two dragons:

Today I will tell you about something I personally experienced.It is the story of some dragons who took refuge with me. When I was in Dung Bei (Manchuria), I had a disciple called Gwo Shun. After following me for less than one year, he became quite advanced in his skill. He could enter samadhi and was able to know all about cause and effect and the principles governing the past, present, and future. Later, he built a small hut twenty feet by twenty feet and requested me to bless it.

Adjacent to his hut was a dragon temple. When I went to visit him, I brought along four more of my disciples to stay together with him in his small hut for a while. One night a certain state manifested. Two of the four disciples, who had opened their Five Eyes, were able to see it. They said they could see ten dragons who had come seeking to take refuge. I said, "How can I possibly give them refuge when my talents aren't even up to theirs?" But the two disciples insisted that the dragons were kneeling down and requesting refuge.

At that particular time there had been no rain for quite a long time and the land was suffering from drought. The area of Harbin, where we were, has a very arid climate. So I made a bargain with the dragons that I would accept them as refuge disciples only if they would bring rain to the local area; otherwise, I wouldn't. They replied that they were capable of making rain, but they first had to get permission from the Jade Emperor (Lord God). I told them to inform God that in that area of Harbin there was a monk who would give them refuge only if they brought rain to a fourteen-mile radius around the hut.

The next day, although the weather had been quite dry for a long time, it rained in a fourteen mile radius around Gwo Shun's hut, just as I had specified. The following day I performed the Triple Refuge ceremony for those dragons and named the two leaders "Quickly Crossing Over," and "Quickly Cultivating." By that I meant that they were to cross over all the dragon kings and their retinues, which they are still doing. Gwo Shun named his hut "Dragon-rain Hut" to commemorate the occasion.

From that day on, wherever I went, there was always enough water for every need. That has been a response from those dragons. And today at the Sagely City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, the dragon kings came here to cool off the weather for us with a little bit of rain.

The Buddha on dragons (concise stanzas from the Dragon King Sutra):

Buddha replied, "Don't disregard Dragons,
They all were Bhiksus in past lives.
They all fell here through their lustful Karmas,
Will be Buddhas in their future lives.
Their Pure Land will be named "No-Defilement."

Dragon King asked why many families are here?
Buddha replied, "Because they were Bhiksus who fell.
And many bad lazy Buddhists were reborn,
Otherwise they would fall in different hells.
As they broke the silas but kept Right View,
So they're reborn here, may still hear my call!"

Regards,

Bernardo.

[Benedikt]

Interesting... Thanks for posting.

PS: It is a fire spitting picture. But I like the idea with the pizza...