Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[Schermitore]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this site, but I have been reading the "Grappling and Kungfu" thread with great interest. I have been rather short on time, and so I have not completed reading the entire thread, but one thing I have noted is that some folks here appear to hold several misconceptions regarding fighting arts in general, and grappling methods in particular. I therefore thought that it would possibly be helpful to offer an alternative viewpoint. Also, rather than continue with the same thread, I thought that it would be better to start a new one, so as to be able to break down the various points made in the original thread started by Mr. Binks more clearly.

But before doing so, I feel that I should introduce myself. My name is David Black Mastro. I am an amateur historian and martial arts student. I moderate on the History Forum at www.MMA.tv (my username is "TrueFightScholar"). I am a longtime Western sports fencer (foil & saber), and I also study Filipino martial arts. Despite my preference for martial arts and combat sports that focus on weapons, I have also trained a bit in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (our freestyle school is licensed under Royler Gracie), and so I have knowledge of grappling basics.

Now, onto the subject(s) at hand...


JJ Binks originally wrote:

I use muscle when grappling too. I don't even realize it until I feel extremely tired very quickly. This was what originally attracted me to tai chi, since it doesn't rely on muscular strength, but I just didn't have the patience for it. Maybe when I get older.

First off, you shouldn't "muscle" when you grapple. The whole point of being on the ground is that you can conserve energy. Also, it is incorrect to think that Western wrestlers rely only on strength, whereas judoka rely on technique. Anyone who has ever wrestled, or even simply taken the time to examine wrestlers in action, knows that there is plenty of technique. Wrestlers make use of the principles of physics, just as their grappling counterparts in the East do. However, this does not mean that strength does not come into play. Wrestlers do emphasis strength training and physical conditioning, and with good reason--if both combatants have good technique, then the stronger man may very well come out as the victor. The Japanese also learned that they could not rely purely on technique in the 1960's when they had to deal with strong Dutch judoka like Jon Bluming and Anton Geesink. After their encounters with these rather frightening men, the Japanese started to include weight training in their repertoire.

Currently we just train jujitsu for about 15-20 minutes at the end of every workout. We don't even know what we're doing, just trying to emulate guys on UFC. But so far its been working really well. If someone doesn't know the submissions it is very easy to get them. Doesn't require much strength.

Do yourself a big favor, and seek out proper grappling instruction. There are plenty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu schools out there. There are also many freestyle martial arts schools that include BJJ in their curriculum. Look for one licensed under an established BJJ teacher.

I think push hands is great too, I intend to start practicing it regularly again.
My only problem with Tai Chi and the kung fu I have practiced is that it doesn't really seem to provide a solution to going to the ground other than "Don't let them take you down." Ha I've heard my classmates talk about this like its nothing...they should try fighting someone who wrestled in high school, let alone someone who wrestled in college. Now imagine fighting an olympic wrestler. They have probably trained much longer and harder at taking someone down than we have worked on our takedown defense.

You are quite right. It is indeed curious how Kung-Fu has evolved (or devolved) so that the grappling doesn't figure too heavily in it. Erle Montaigue's Ultimate Dim Mak--How To Fight A Grappler And Win book is particularly amusing, as Mr. Montaigue's solution to dealing with a grappler is based upon the grappler never taking you down in the first place, which is HIGHLY unrealistic. As you already probably suspect, a high school wrestler can take you down 9 times out of 10 (if not 10 out of 10), so one has to seriously wonder about the practicality of Mr. Montaigue's approach.

***

Next, Antonius added some commentary that was, frankly, a bit hard to take seriously:

I already came up with a solution! Tiger Claw. Problem solved. Just because you guys don't understand doesn't mean we didn't come up with a solution.

It sounds as if you are placing way too much faith in a technique which has not manifested itself in NHB/MMA circles.

Do you think that grappling is a new invention? Do you think that in 2000 years of warring and fighting, the Chinese never thought of it? Do you think that Kungfu never took grappling into account despite the fact that the invading Mongols were expert wrestlers?

No, grappling is hardly a new invention--the ancient wrestling images from the Egyptian tombs at Beni Hassan (circa 2000 B.C./B.C.E.) show that well enough.

As to grappling in the Chinese context, your statement regarding the Chinese fighting the Mongols (who were "expert wrestlers") is patently ludicrous. The Mongols were almost exclusively a cavalry army. Anytime that infantry were needed (such as for sieges), they relied on foriegn auxiliaries--Chinese, Koreans, Persians, Georgians, Armenians, etc. The Mongols themselves fought using the same steppe tactics of previous nomadic horse-archers, though they used even denser formations (which thus had more firepower). Their main weapons were, in order of importance: the horse (without which their methods would not work), the composite bow, the lance, and the saber.

Wrestling, on the other hand, was probably little more than a popular sport amongst the Mongols, as well as possibly being a means of personal self-defense. I highly doubt that the standing form of wrestling seen in Mongolia today (similar to shuai jiao) played much of a role in warfare.

Indeed, even in armies where infantry played a significant role, wrestling was very much a secondary art--an adjunct to sworplay. One sees this in the sumai and kumi-uchi of the samurai, as well as in the ringen that was practiced by German landsknecht mercenaries, and the presas that were employed by Italian infantrymen and street thugs (bravi). This is not to say that these men weren't skilled grapplers (they clearly were), but modern martial artists sometimes overplay things like this. The use of long and short weapons in battle was of course much more common. Sure, you'll see some warriors grappling in Medieval and Renaissance woodcuts and paintings of battles, but you'll also see a lot more guys sticking and hacking at each other with pikes, spears, halberds, swords, and other weapons.

A friend of mine read your original declaration and joked, "Does this guy think that the Mongol Army stopped in front of the Chinese Army, dismounted from their horses, threw down their weapons, and resorted to one big grappling melee?" Surely, you must see the absurdity of your claim regarding the Mongolian wrestling influence!

They did, in fact, take it into account and came up with an elegant solution: Chin Na. The Tiger Claw involves Chin Na. Taijiquan is rich with Chin Na techniques.

Chin Na is the Chinese art of joint locking. Other arts from all over the world have similar techniques (jujutsu, judo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling, etc). In fact, Chin Na is not nearly so novel as you would like to portray it.

One thing which is notably lacking in Chinese martial arts it a tradition of ground grappling. Shuai Jiao is based solely upon standing grappling--it resembles judo without the groundwork. In fact, some Chinese wrestlers have sought to remedy this deficiency in their art by including judo's ne-waza approach to ground grappling (ie., the use of the guard, mount, etc.), as well as submissions from judo, BJJ, & catch wrestling. The fact that these men have consulted outside sources for these techniques is singularly revealing. Chin Na, on the other hand, is seen as a sort of supplement to many Kung-Fu systems, but it's practical application remains in question, since most Chinese schools do not engage in any form of grappling free-sparring (like judo's randori).

Since this is a Taijiquan thread and we're really straying from the topic, I'll provide another answer. To counter a shoot or a tackle, a Taijiquan master might use "Jie Li Da Li" which means: borrow force from opponent, and use his force to beat him back.

And how often do you train to use this Jie Li Da Li to stop a determined grappler? Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers, BJJ players, samboists, shootwrestlers, shootfighters, catch wrestlers, and judoka train to defend against throws and takedowns as a matter of course. Therein lies a major difference.

And this isn't new either. Ancient Greek pankratiasts had to know how to defend against all throws and takedowns, and 18th-19th century English pugilists had to know how to defend against standing throws.

If the master ended up on the ground somehow, he could still fight. He could, for example, channel internal force to his palm and strike powerfully even while lying on his back. Or he could channel force to his fingers and grip (similar to a Tiger Claw) with enough intensity to crush bones.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I suspect that you are relying on something that may not exist, and that, in turn, can be very dangerous.

The fact is that a grappler is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks from the moment he begins his shoot until he fully completes his mount. This can take a long time, at least 5-6 seconds. In a fight to the death, 1 second is an eternity. During this time, an internal master has many options, all of which are potentially lethal to his opponent.

The wrestler who crotch-lifts you and dumps you on your head is also "potentially lethal to his opponent"...

The reason shooters and grapplers don't worry about such things is because they have never fought someone with such internal force. They are prepared to take a normal hit on the way in. They don't mind taking punches on the ground because they aren't as powerful. Unfortunately, all of this goes out the window when dealing with internal force.

This is where you are losing me...

Sorry folks, but attempting a shoot or a tackle on an internal master is a really bad idea. Unless your opponent is compassionate, it is suicide.

LOL, I guess that's why Dim Mak master Erle Montaigue decided to include some wrestling-style chokeholds in his "grappler defense".

With all due respect, I think that you are living in a bit of a fantasy land, but then again, you've probably heard this sort of thing before, and so you must resort to making excuses:

No, because the majority don't know the methods. Others don't believe such methods work. Still others who do believe and do have the methods don't have access to a genuine master. The number of people who are left are, understandable, very few.

Again, I would like to stress that, just because I don't believe in this "internal energy", it is not meant as a sign of disrespect to any practitioners of such arts here. Just as some of you feel that grappling isn't "all that", I feel likewise about the internal stuff. It's simply a difference of opinion.

I will continue with my commentary in the future.

Best Regards To All,

David Black Mastro

aka "Schermitore"

aka "TrueFightScholar"

[happymantis]

Chill out. Much of what you've said I agree with and much of what you've said especially that concerning internal force I don't. You've said in many ways that you are thoroughly ignorant of anything having to do with internal force and your other comments regarding it show that even more clearly. So why are you degrading it? If you have questions about it ask. A significant portion of this forum is dedicated to the discussion of qi. And if you disagree with something you can say it without insulting someone. All your insults only serve to make you look like a fool and this forum less interesting to be a part of.

Oh and chin na is a good deal more than joint locking and is used and practiced a lot more than you seem to be aware of. Just so you know.

[Schermitore]

happymantis,

Chill out.

I'm fine--though, judging from your reply, perhaps you should "chill out".

Much of what you've said I agree with and much of what you've said especially that concerning internal force I don't.

Ok.

You've said in many ways that you are thoroughly ignorant of anything having to do with internal force and your other comments regarding it show that even more clearly. So why are you degrading it?

It's interesting how skeptics of "internal force" are automatically relegated to the position of being "ignorant" by practitioners of such techniques.

If you have questions about it ask.

Well, how 'bout this-- If internal force is so real, then why do threads like this even exist?

A significant portion of this forum is dedicated to the discussion of qi. And if you disagree with something you can say it without insulting someone. All your insults only serve to make you look like a fool and this forum less interesting to be a part of.

I'm not concerned with the discussion of chi, I'm concerned with the debate over MMA and Kung-Fu, as it appeared on JJ Binks' thread. And I have not insulted anyone--on the contrary, I have tried to be very civil on this Forum, especially since I am new here.

Oh and chin na is a good deal more than joint locking and is used and practiced a lot more than you seem to be aware of. Just so you know.

Thanks for cluing me in on that. Now, where's all the Chin Na in MMA? For that matter, where are all the Kung-Fu practitioners in MMA?

One side note--I'm not saying that Kung-Fu is useless. Some practitioners have certainly made it work in full-contact, stand-up bouts--men like Don "The Dragon" Wilson and Paul Vizio (sp). However, they didn't need "internal force" to win their bouts.

And finally, there is still the original question about how a Kung-Fu practitioner is going to (realistically) deal with a grappler. If you have anything to offer in regards to that, please post it.

Thanks,

David Black Mastro

[Schermitore]

Juszczec offered some useful commentary:

"My only problem with Tai Chi and the kung fu I have practiced is that it doesn't really seem to provide a solution to going to the ground other than "Don't let them take you down."

Karate is much the same way. However, I've found principles in karate kata (not many, but I didn't really look too hard) that seem to suggest they contain some solution to this problem. I would suspect kung fu and tai chi are the same boat.

After all, we are talking about self defense - defending against any kind of spontaneous attack. If the forms are supposed to contain principles of self defense, then I suspect its there but we don't know what we're looking for. Cross training will help this a great deal.

This is an important observation on juszczec's part, in relation to JJ Bink's original post. I have heard much about the "hidden techniques" in Kung-Fu forms and Karate kata--in fact, articles about such things became rather popular after the MMA revolution.

And you can break down the traditionalist reaction to MMA and grappling combat sports as thus:

1. Those traditionalists who are most realistic and pragmatic, who simply choose to actually cross-train in grappling techniques (whether BJJ, judo, sambo, shootfighting, etc.).

2. Those traditionalists who are too proud to seek outside sources for techniques, and thus resort to delving into their forms for "hidden" anti-grappling responses.

3. A blend of the above two--ie., traditionalists who add methods from outside sources to supplement their anti-grappling arsenal, and yet maintain that it is still essentially their original art that is going to stop the wrestler (or judoka or whomever).

BTW "Don't let them take you down" really translates to "I never came up with anything to do against that so stop asking because its emabarassing." Or, at least that's what it means in the karate world ;-)

I suspect that the above applies to all traditionalists who practice an upright striking art.

***

KungFuJoe, on the other hand, seemed more in-line with Antonius' approach:

Although I by no means have the internal force of yourself Antonius in tiger claw, I must absolutely agree with your opinion on grappling.

My experience is that all of the techniques of jujitsu can be found in kung fu, but in a real fight with a grappler I would rather have tiger claw than a black-belt in a grappling art.

There are two reasons for this...

1) Tiger claw is more combat efficient than other forms of joint locking. You can immobilize your opponent without immobilizing yourself. Additionally, all you need to do is make contact with your opponent to apply the skill. I can grab someones throat or elbow, but really if the force is great enough you can grab anywhere in any position and get a similar result.

2) You can be compassionate with the art of tiger claw.

Once again, this strikes me as someone who is being unrealistically reliant on a particular technique. And, for what it's worth, you can be "compassionate" with grappling too--note that Royce Gracie didn't seriously harm any of his UFC adversaries.

I'll note that I recently defeated another exponent in grappling by using this skill. He had me in the mounted position (for those of us who do not speak ju-jitsu, he had me just about defeated), when I remember Sifu Wong's book and just grabbed his throat. The fight ended there and no one was hurt. That's what I mean by efficiency and compassion!

First off, being mounted does not mean that you are "just about defeated"--it is a bad place to be, but it is not necessarily the end.

Secondly, if I'm reading the above account correctly, you're saying that you were mounted by a grappling "exponent", and that you simply reached up and grabbed his throat, ending the combat. Considering that such a move would have set you up for a juji-gatame armbar, I have to question the grappling competence of your partner. He should have simply gone for the armbar, since you literally gave your arm up by trying to grab his throat. You made one of the most fundamental grappling errors--you NEVER straighten out your arm while you are mounted.


***

Quatro Bajina then offered this Tiger Claw vs Grappling scenario:

Big guy executes a shoot for double leg takedown. I didn't get a chance to go for a sprawl and was taken down. He gets into a top mount and tries to execute a figure four on my right arm. He needs two hands to execute a figure four, right? My left arm is free. I can use my left arm to muscle grab the rib cage on his right side (It's open). He will feel the pain (trust me on this one, or better yet ask someone to muscle grab that area, you will feel it). I can use this opportunity to get up or reverse the mount position.

A more realistic version of the above scenario would go like this:

Grappler executes a takedown. Kung-Fu guy wasn't able to sprawl and gets mounted. Grappler goes for the figure-four lock ("keylock", "paint-the-floor", etc) on opponent's right arm. Kung-Fu guy uses his free left arm to apply a Tiger Claw to the Grappler's ribcage. Grappler feels some superficial pain--which he's used to anyway from having rough-as-treebark double-weave judo gis rubbed against his face during training--and continues with the figure-four lock. Kung-Fu practitioner must either tap, or suffer a shredded shoulder joint.

BTW, I specified "Grappler" as opposed to "Big Guy" in my scenario because, frankly, not all grapplers are big guys. Take a look at Matt Serra, one of Renzo Gracie's top fighters. Matt is certainly very muscular, but he is also fairly short. Short, and extremely dangerous, that is.

In fact, there are countless top-notch BJJ practitioners who are not huge men. Look at all the Gracies, for example!

More thoughts to come...

Best Regards To All,

David Black Mastro

[juszczec]

Re: Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

Hi

I recognize you from mmatv.com. I've read your posts there and am looking forward to them here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Schermitore

JJ Binks originally wrote:

Anyone who has ever wrestled, or even simply taken the time to examine wrestlers in action, knows that there is plenty of technique. Wrestlers make use of the principles of physics, just as their grappling counterparts in the East do.

Agreed. Now, given human nature - how many people actually look at someone in a different style and actually admit the person knows what they are doing? Not many - at least not many that I've ever met. You run into this EVERYWHERE - karate, kungfu, mma, boxing, wrestling, fat slob sitting on the couch watching UFC.

The trick is to find people who don't think like this and work out with them whevever you can.

However, this does not mean that strength does not come into play. Wrestlers do emphasis strength training and physical conditioning, and with good reason--if both combatants have good technique, then the stronger man may very well come out as the victor.

This is a good point and should be tatooed to the forehead of anyone who trains for self defense or competition. The better the body, the better it will perform any technique.

JJBinks: Currently we just train jujitsu for about 15-20 minutes at the end of every workout. We don't even know what we're doing, just trying to emulate guys on UFC. But so far its been working really well. If someone doesn't know the submissions it is very easy to get them. Doesn't require much strength.

Schermitore: Do yourself a big favor, and seek out proper grappling instruction. There are plenty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu schools out there. There are also many freestyle martial arts schools that include BJJ in their curriculum. Look for one licensed under an established BJJ teacher.

It depends on what JJBinks wants out of this practice, what resources he has in his school and in his area. Certainly, learning from someone who knows is the quickest - but fumbling around and figuring it out yourself has its advantages.

You are quite right. It is indeed curious how Kung-Fu has evolved (or devolved) so that the grappling doesn't figure too heavily in it. Erle Montaigue's Ultimate Dim Mak--How To Fight A Grappler And Win book is particularly amusing, as Mr. Montaigue's solution to dealing with a grappler is based upon the grappler never taking you down in the first place, which is HIGHLY unrealistic. As you already probably suspect, a high school wrestler can take you down 9 times out of 10 (if not 10 out of 10), so one has to seriously wonder about the practicality of Mr. Montaigue's approach.

I've not read the book, so I won't comment.

Disclaimer - everything I say is about self defense. Competition is another conversation.

We have to keep in mind what kind of opponent we're talking about. In general, we are looking to defend ourselves against the average slob who wants to hurt us. Odds are (and I know this is bad and I'll address it) they won't have any special training other than experience so some preparation on our part will go a long way.

If you know about timing, distance, not over committing AND know how to watch for stuff you should be ok.

Now, I know that arguement falls down because you can NEVER assume ANYTHING about someone attacking you in the street and should train for the worst case. So, you should train with people who are skilled at what they do so you can react if they go thru your first defense.

Man, is that and example of me talking out of both sides of my mouth or what?

It sounds as if you are placing way too much faith in a technique which has not manifested itself in NHB/MMA circles.

Ummmmm, this is a case of the "not invented here" syndrome. Maybe no tiger claws in MMA - but neither is there bashing the opponent on the head with a brick. Guess what, I ain't gonna rule that out if I get a chance to use it.

Surely, you must see the absurdity of your claim regarding the Mongolian wrestling influence!

Ummmmm, wait a minute. The Mongols wrestled. They conquered lots of China. Isn't it relatively safe to say they had an influence on Shuai Jiao?

Chin Na is the Chinese art of joint locking. Other arts from all over the world have similar techniques (jujutsu, judo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling, etc). In fact, Chin Na is not nearly so novel as you would like to portray it.

However, it seems to me the Chinese have done a good job of keeping this information tied to some styles of kungfu. At least, they did much better than the Japanese after they co-opted karate and the English after they cleaned up boxing.

One thing which is notably lacking in Chinese martial arts it a tradition of ground grappling. Shuai Jiao is based solely upon standing grappling--it resembles judo without the groundwork. In fact, some Chinese wrestlers have sought to remedy this deficiency in their art by including judo's ne-waza approach to ground grappling (ie., the use of the guard, mount, etc.), as well as submissions from judo, BJJ, & catch wrestling. The fact that these men have consulted outside sources for these techniques is singularly revealing. Chin Na, on the other hand, is seen as a sort of supplement to many Kung-Fu systems, but it's practical application remains in question, since most Chinese schools do not engage in any form of grappling free-sparring (like judo's randori).

True, but its a matter of why you are doing this.

Sport wise - yes.

Self defense wise - I'm not so sure.

Its safer (generally) to hit someone than take them down (don't know who's behind you). As a striker, I'm gonna use striking and avoidance to avoid getting taken down. Also, when taken down, my goal is to get back up ASAP. So stuff like ne-waza, ground grappling and submissions are less important to me. Note, I didn't say unimportant - I train these techniques too but I'm realistic about my abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

As far as Chin na's effectiveness because it doesn't do randori, sounds like more not invented here syndrome. Japanese jujutsu didn't do randori and samurai trained it as a last resort if disarmed. I think survival of the fittest comes into play with some of this stuff - the practitioners who trained in stupid fashions died quicker and their methods weren't passed on.

With the advent of peace, MA lost this method of natural selection. Coupled with the advent of keeping students happy so you can support youself teaching - lots of ineffective stuff is done. Hence the state of karate in 21st century USA

And how often do you train to use this Jie Li Da Li to stop a determined grappler? Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers, BJJ players, samboists, shootwrestlers, shootfighters, catch wrestlers, and judoka train to defend against throws and takedowns as a matter of course. Therein lies a major difference.

My take is we should all cross train by inviting folks who are good at something vastly different than what we do and work with them. Who knows, ya might end up actually learning something.
The problem is, doing this exposes our own faults - its hard to have your own limitations waved in front of you. But if I can suck it up and deal with it so can anyone else.

Mark

[Wen]

Grappler executes a takedown. Kung-Fu guy wasn't able to sprawl and gets mounted. Grappler goes for the figure-four lock ("keylock", "paint-the-floor", etc) on opponent's right arm. Kung-Fu guy uses his free left arm to apply a Tiger Claw to the Grappler's ribcage. Grappler feels some superficial pain--which he's used to anyway from having rough-as-treebark double-weave judo gis rubbed against his face during training--and continues with the figure-four lock. Kung-Fu practitioner must either tap, or suffer a shredded shoulder joint.

From what i have read in this thread about "applying" Tiger Claw's the outcome would be either Grappler tapping out or suffer a broken ribcage.

Unfortunantely i can base my opinion only on what i have read on this thread and not by experience as i havent experienced either Tiger Claw or wrestling a proffessional grappler.

[Schermitore]

Mark,

Great post!

I have to get ready for work, but I will reply to your many interesting points ASAP.

Thanks,

David Black Mastro

[juszczec]

Hi folks

Man, and I thought I was busy typing last week

Originally posted by happymantis
[B]Chill out. Much of what you've said I agree with and much of what you've said especially that concerning internal force I don't. You've said in many ways that you are thoroughly ignorant of anything having to do with internal force and your other comments regarding it show that even more clearly.

Ummmmm, what's the problem?

So why are you degrading it?

Now I'm confused - but that happens alot. Quote specific examples of his post that were degrading.

If you have questions about it ask. A significant portion of this forum is dedicated to the discussion of qi. And if you disagree with something you can say it without insulting someone.

First, where was David insulting? Am I insulting because I don't agree wholeheartedly with any of the arguements presented, including yours?

Next, on my pc the forum subgroup says Shaolin Kungfu. There's a specific group dedicated to qi.

Lastly, I do have questions about qi - I'll post them to the appropriate group when I have time.

All your insults only serve to make you look like a fool and this forum less interesting to be a part of.

happymantis, you don't seem so happy. I think David has questioned some of your beliefs and is making you uncomfortable.

Why can I say that? Because I've seen - and probably had similar reactions when karate guys are told:

kata isn't just exercise

that jumping spinning back kick to the head isn't gonna work when you are holding groceries in your icy driveway

based on the examples of many people in karate, its not all that great a method of spiritual development


Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Schermitore
I have heard much about the "hidden techniques" in Kung-Fu forms and Karate kata

IMNSHO hidden techniques is a misnomer. But if you only have names for black and white, have no idea what color is, its gonna be tough for you to pick out the color red. Or, if you don't know what you are looking for - you're never gonna find it.

2. Those traditionalists who are too proud to seek outside sources for techniques, and thus resort to delving into their forms for "hidden" anti-grappling responses.

and

BTW "Don't let them take you down" really translates to "I never came up with anything to do against that so stop asking because its emabarassing." Or, at least that's what it means in the karate world ;-)

I suspect that the above applies to all traditionalists who practice an upright striking art.

Just to be fair, the same can be said about anyone who practices any fighting method. I suspect, after reading some opinions on mmatv.com, it won't be long before there's a bunch of BJJ true believers.

When BJJ starts to be a commercial success the Gracie's can't control, you'll have the same problems as the rest of the MA world

First off, being mounted does not mean that you are "just about defeated"--it is a bad place to be, but it is not necessarily the end.

I diagree. For most people in a street fight, being mounted is the beginning of the end - if you have survived having your head bounced off the concrete which, IMNSHO, is what a throw/takedown should do.

Secondly, if I'm reading the above account correctly, you're saying that you were mounted by a grappling "exponent", and that you simply reached up and grabbed his throat, ending the combat. Considering that such a move would have set you up for a juji-gatame armbar, I have to question the grappling competence of your partner. He should have simply gone for the armbar, since you literally gave your arm up by trying to grab his throat. You made one of the most fundamental grappling errors--you NEVER straighten out your arm while you are mounted.

For every counter there is a counter and so on and so on and so on. There is no perfect solution.

Quatro Bajina then offered this Tiger Claw vs Grappling scenario:

Big guy executes a shoot for double leg takedown. I didn't get a chance to go for a sprawl and was taken down. He gets into a top mount and tries to execute a figure four on my right arm. He needs two hands to execute a figure four, right? My left arm is free. I can use my left arm to muscle grab the rib cage on his right side (It's open). He will feel the pain (trust me on this one, or better yet ask someone to muscle grab that area, you will feel it). I can use this opportunity to get up or reverse the mount position.

A more realistic version of the above scenario would go like this:

Grappler executes a takedown. Kung-Fu guy wasn't able to sprawl and gets mounted. Grappler goes for the figure-four lock ("keylock", "paint-the-floor", etc) on opponent's right arm. Kung-Fu guy uses his free left arm to apply a Tiger Claw to the Grappler's ribcage. Grappler feels some superficial pain--which he's used to anyway from having rough-as-treebark double-weave judo gis rubbed against his face during training--and continues with the figure-four lock. Kung-Fu practitioner must either tap, or suffer a shredded shoulder joint.

We are on thin ice here. The best we can do is a "if he does this, you can do that" kind of thing. We can (and should) use it as a strategy session, but that's all.

Mark

[J.J.Binks]

Wow we're really cookin' here

This is a great discussion. When I have time I'll read all of it and make a more thorough response. For now:

You made one of the most fundamental grappling errors--you NEVER straighten out your arm while you are

I believe there are few black/ white areas but many grey ones in the world of martial arts. I agree that in a real fight it would be dangerous to straighten one's arm out while on the ground. However, in competition, sometimes it can be appropriate. For example, during my last MMA fight, I was getting grounded and pounded big time. The guy was a lot better than me, so there was no way I was going to get him off of me. So I gave him my arm, he took the bait, and I wound up on top. I figured I was going to lose anyway so why did it matter if I got tapped out or the ref stopped it due to strikes. I didn't think of this on my own, I heard of Carlos Newton using the tactic against Matt Hughes. Guys who fight on the ground a lot probably are familiar with this occurence...His arm's straight! I've got an armbar! Oh shoot he got his head around my leg and now I'm getting the snot beat out of me!
-Jon

[KungFuJoe]

This discussion is becoming interesting!!! I'm going to post this reply and then go away for about three weeks while doing some exams. Sorry for not being there to reply for a while and for my hasty writing.

Some points of clarification. If we were to look broadly at Shaolin kung-fu, we would find that it contains four basic things...

1) Fighting technique, usually linked in forms for easy remembering.
2) Internal force training.
3) Chi-kung for everything from combat to health to sexual fxn.
4) Zen.

Generally in terms of importance to most practitioners, 4 is most, then 3, 2, 1. This is probably why not too much kung-fu happens in tournaments. This may or may not change in the future. I know that Master Wong has expressed some interest in competition for his students in one of the threads. I don't know why personally, but it is of interest and not my place to disagree. I admire Master Wong very much for bringing these arts to the world so that all might benefit from 1500 years of Shaolin development.

Secondly, internal force is is 90% of kung-fu fighting. The remaining 10% is technique (I'm exaggerating, but not by much). We must appreciate this. If I say I practice tiger claw kung-fu, what I really mean is that basically I spend time training the art of tiger claw. Without internal force, you aren't really doing Shaolin. The opportunity to learn force, chi kung and zen methods is why many people (i.e. me) want to learn from Master Wong. Force is far more important than style in kung-fu (point of fact that there are some 1000 styles of kung-fu, most Shaolin derived in one way or another). For this reason, when someone says they practice Shaolin, I take them to mean traditional kung-fu techniques of some sort with Shaolin force training methods.

Secondly, there are tons of hidden techniques in kung-fu forms, but most dancers don't know them. I would say that in my forms, 60% of techniques are grappling and 40% striking, if you want to use those terms.

Thirdly, the only reason I got mounted was because I forgot to use my kung-fu techniques. In kung-fu sparring, the mount never happens... just too dangerous for the mounter. Thirdly, I use two fingers for throat attacks... I think that this is a lot more efficient than orientating an arm for a break (although situations for this do come up)... Your fingers can move like lightening. If I had more force, I would not need to injure my opponent this badly to win.

Fourthly, Chin Na is more highly evolved than anything in jujitsu that I have ever seen. Sorry if this sounds conceited and elitist... I think it is just a statement of fact, but remember like everything else in kung-fu it revolves around internal force. A couple years ago I would have found it conceited and elitist as well... but those were different days...

Sixthly, Jujisu can be used compassionately, can allow a small opponent to defeat a much larger one and will generally not deteriorate with age in its exponents. It is my favourite of the arts... besides shaolin and Tai Chi of course.. hehehe... but that's probably more personal taste than anything.

Lastly, you can learn an immense amount from Master Wong's books.

The Shaolin way has become open to all via Master Wong and the WahNam school. There is no end to these arts and through them one can achieve so much more than fighting. I trained with a kung-fu Sifu for 10 years and still was not shown how to truly develop internal force... even though I'm convinced he knew how... that is very common in kung-fu. With Master Wong you can learn in a week-end what many have strived for years to attain.

That being said, I do not underestimate other arts.. especially not mixed martial arts, which I practiced for many years myself. The point is that we must show respect for eachother not only in the points but also in the tone of our sentences. This is ultimately the best way for all of us to get goo results.

Wish me luck on exams!

Joe

[juszczec]

Hi,

Its me again

It's interesting how skeptics of "internal force" are automatically relegated to the position of being "ignorant" by practitioners of such techniques.

Knee jerk reaction. Human nature. Proponents of any point of view will do this to people who disagree.

It still isn't right.

Well, how 'bout this-- If internal force is so real, then why do threads like this even exist?

Its difficult to see, feel, develop and measure. The large number of frauds out there doesn't help either.

Oh and chin na is a good deal more than joint locking and is used and practiced a lot more than you seem to be aware of. Just so you know.

Thanks for cluing me in on that. Now, where's all the Chin Na in MMA? For that matter, where are all the Kung-Fu practitioners in MMA?

More not invented here syndrome. Refer to my comment in a previous post about hitting someone in the head with a brick.

And, if I understand right chin na influenced jujutsu influenced judo influenced BJJ so its there. It just ain't all that obvious

One side note--I'm not saying that Kung-Fu is useless. Some practitioners have certainly made it work in full-contact, stand-up bouts--men like Don "The Dragon" Wilson and Paul Vizio (sp). However, they didn't need "internal force" to win their bouts.

Don't know about Paul Vizio. Don Wilson was nearing the end of his competitive career when I started training. I think using Don Wilson competitive record as an arguement for the effectiveness of kung fu makes little sense. When kickboxing, Wilson's goal was to knock out or out score the other guy AND there was a large set of rules in place to protect both competitors AND there was a referee.

In a street fight - which is all I'm worried about - the goal is to hurt them and get away. This is completely different than any kind of competitive bout.

And finally, there is still the original question about how a Kung-Fu practitioner is going to (realistically) deal with a grappler. If you have anything to offer in regards to that, please post it.

IMO, the answer is obvious. It applies to anyone practicing any style. Put aside your ego, be willing to accept no one has all the answers, go ask questions, cross train, make mistakes, experiment, make more mistakes and if you keep at it you will learn something. And, since I think its important to do as you tell others to do - yes, this is how I train. If anyone wants examples, just ask.

Mark

[subclock]

Different strokes

Really interesting posts guys ,

I think Kung Fu Joe said some very important things in his post that everyone can benefit from .

We are not on this forum to argue , but to LEARN from each other . Doubting the power of the Tiger Claw is making the same error as saying the Tiger Claw will always triumph . It is generalising too much and there are too many factors at play to make such statements . Which technique is better is a matter of opinion and experience .

I think that we can all agree that one of the main determining factors of a fight ( martial or sports ) is Skill . Again there are various opinions on what 'having skill' actually is . In my opinion Internal Force is the ultimate "skill" because it has no limitations except for the depth of your training . Again , this is in my experience ( witnessing my Sigung ) that I found this to be so . Other people consider BJJ the ultimate fighting technique . That is their right .

Hi Schermitore ,

I think it is important also to note what Kung Fu Joe said about not just the words in your sentence , but the tone of what you are implying . Although you are free to give your opinions on whether or not you think Qi is real , keep in mind that it is not the purpose of this forum . All those who train with Sifu Wong Kiew Kit experience and believe in it ( Qi ) . I have experienced energy flow myself .

Perhaps you should try some of the counters we supplied ( eg: counter for a tackle is green dragon shoots pearl )before dismissing them . No , it will not always work . There are factors at play . If the Taijiquan exponent is hesitant and does not apply force at the right moment , the counter will fail . Alternatively , if the Taijiquan exponent is well trained there is more than enough time to strike the head of the tackler, possibly killing him . Compare your fastest tackle speed to your fastest striking speed and you will see what I mean . ( the latest Question-Answer section on this Website has a good example picture of how wide open a tackle to the legs leaves you . )

There is a big difference between somebody digging their fingers into your rib cage quite hard and somebody giving you a Tiger Claw . Remember that besides the internal force required the fingers of a Tiger Claw Master are extremely tough ( from doing finger press ups , bean jabbing , and carrying pots with the fingertips etc. ) . They have conditioned their " claw " for years . They also know all of the various points that are the most painful when gripped . ( The funny bone is evidence of such points ) . Even without applying internal force their fingers can do a lot of damage . Remember , even grown men cry .

Finally , no matter what you are currently training , make sure that you are obtaining the benefits your art claims to give . Also be sure that those benefits are what you ultimately want . If you are sure of what you are doing , then best of luck . If I meet any of you in person though , I would prefer it if instead of trying to grapple me and break my arm seven times , we could rather go get a cup of tea .

Kevin

[Antonius]

Great stuff everyone. I would really like to give this thread more time, but I fly to Malaysia with Sifu tomorrow morning.

First of all, I would like to welcome David to the forum. Unfortunately, I can't give your comments the attention they deserve because I am on the road for the month. Nevertheless, I'll do what I can when I have access to a computer.

However, this does not mean that strength does not come into play. Wrestlers do emphasis strength training and physical conditioning, and with good reason--if both combatants have good technique, then the stronger man may very well come out as the victor.

Interestingly, this is similar to a fundamental Kungfu principle -- in combat, the victor is usually decided by force, not techniques. However, our definition of force means internal force, not mechanical strength.

It is indeed curious how Kung-Fu has evolved (or devolved) so that the grappling doesn't figure too heavily in it. Erle Montaigue's Ultimate Dim Mak--How To Fight A Grappler And Win book is particularly amusing, as Mr. Montaigue's solution to dealing with a grappler is based upon the grappler never taking you down in the first place, which is HIGHLY unrealistic.

Coincidentally, Mr. Montaigue is a member of this forum. You may be interested to read some of the threads where he posted (Reptile Brain and Taijiquan Sparring). It should be obvious that Mr. Montaigue's definition of internal martial arts differs from ours at Shaolin Wahnam. With all due respect to Mr. Montaigue, I feel it is inaccurate to use him as an example with regard to my statements.

It sounds as if you are placing way too much faith in a technique which has not manifested itself in NHB/MMA circles.

A simple matter of perspective, really. I could easily counter with: It sounds to me as if you are placing way too much faith in techniques which have manifested mainly in competitions, not real combat.

"Does this guy think that the Mongol Army stopped in front of the Chinese Army, dismounted from their horses, threw down their weapons, and resorted to one big grappling melee?" Surely, you must see the absurdity of your claim regarding the Mongolian wrestling influence!

This is a good example of how a statement can become twisted when taken so far out of context.

your statement regarding the Chinese fighting the Mongols (who were "expert wrestlers") is patently ludicrous.

Let's review my statement:

"Do you think that grappling is a new invention? Do you think that in 2000 years of warring and fighting, the Chinese never thought of it? Do you think that Kungfu never took grappling into account despite the fact that the invading Mongols were expert wrestlers?"

I'll admit that my sentence could have been better, but I don't see where I suggested that the Mongols invaded China with wrestling. Your explanation of Chinese history was interesting, but unnecessary. We were not discussing siege weaponry or mass warfare. We were discussing Grappling and Kungfu.

Chin Na is the Chinese art of joint locking. Other arts from all over the world have similar techniques (jujutsu, judo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling, etc). In fact, Chin Na is not nearly so novel as you would like to portray it.

Again, this is a matter of perspective. Your definition of Chin Na is based on your own, limited experience. Joint locking is only a minor aspect of Chin Na. Traditionally, the three categories of Chin Na are "separating tendons," "gripping points" and "wronging joints." Joint locking is not even an entire category.

Genuine Chin Na is significantly different than the joint locking techniques found in jujutsu. For example, a master with internal force can apply Chin Na with only one hand and then let go of his opponent. Once a "Chin" and a "Na" are applied, the opponent can no longer fight. I do not know of any other martial arts which include both the "Chin" and the "Na" aspect. Force training is an integral part of Chin Na.

Kung-Fu guy uses his free left arm to apply a Tiger Claw to the Grappler's ribcage. Grappler feels some superficial pain--which he's used to anyway from having rough-as-treebark double-weave judo gis rubbed against his face during training--and continues with the figure-four lock.

I do not mean to be insulting, but this statement illustrates your lack of perspective regarding force training. From my perspective, saying that a Grappler could ignore a Tiger Claw to the ribs from an internal master because he is used to it is like saying that he could ignore a dagger through the spleen because he is used to it.

One thing which is notably lacking in Chinese martial arts it a tradition of ground grappling

I agree. There isn't much ground grappling in traditional Kungfu, and for a good reason -- grappling on the ground is dangerous against internal masters, weapons, and multiple opponents. Shaolin Kungfu does, in fact, contain the shoot throw (Angry Bull Charges Fence) and many ground fighting techniques. However, these techniques are seldom used because of their inherent weaknesses.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I suspect that you are relying on something that may not exist, and that, in turn, can be very dangerous.

Thank you for your concern. I understand your perspective. I once shared it. However, direct experience changed things for me.

With all due respect, I think that you are living in a bit of a fantasy land, but then again, you've probably heard this sort of thing before, and so you must resort to making excuses.

OK

I'm not saying that Kung-Fu is useless. Some practitioners have certainly made it work in full-contact, stand-up bouts--men like Don "The Dragon" Wilson and Paul Vizio (sp). However, they didn't need "internal force" to win their bouts.

With all due respect, what these men use is nothing like genuine Kungfu.

And finally, there is still the original question about how a Kung-Fu practitioner is going to (realistically) deal with a grappler. If you have anything to offer in regards to that, please post it.

Allow me to pose another hypothetical situation -- a grappler pitted against a fighter wielding a screwdriver in each hand. The fighter trains daily with the screwdrivers. The grappler also trains daily but has no weapons. The fight can take place in an octagon or a ring or a cage or a baseball field or wherever you like.

Assuming that each fighter is equally skilled in his own method, what would happen? Would the fight go to the ground? Would grappling be involved?

Since I may not have a chance to reply for some time, I will answer my own question now. Obviously, the screwdrivers change everything. One jab from a screwdriver can be fatal, even while lying on the ground. Remember that the hypothetical fighter is skilled with the screwdriver and can accurately target the eyes or vital spots on the neck and the abdomen. I'm confident we can all agree that, in this hypothetical situation, it would be foolish to fight against the screwdrivers using grappling.

The hand of an internal master is actually more dangerous than a screwdriver. David, you may not believe this statement, and that is your prerogative. It is not my place or my intention to convince you, but for the sake of argument, please temporarily suspend your disbelief. Presuming that this statement is true, I think we have answered how Kungfu can realistically deal with a grappler, i.e. with two natural screwdrivers which cannot be dropped or taken away.

Whether or not internal force is real is another matter entirely and one that is not really appropriate for this thread. This subject has been discussed many times on the forum and in great depth on Sifu's website. Please allow me to remind everyone that this is the official international forum for students of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute. Guests are very welcome, but we hope that they will take the time to browse the forum and the site in order to better understand what we do. We believe that this will make the discussions more meaningful for everyone.

I would also like to mention that only those members with the title "Shaolin Wahnam Instructor/Disciple" are speaking in the name of Wahnam. This does not necessarily mean we disagree with comments made by other members. In fact, I am pleasantly surprised to hear good comments by members who have never met Sifu Wong. On the other hand, I'm sure everyone realizes the value in differentiating Sifu's disciples.

All the best, everyone. Enjoy the discussion.

[Antonius]

Note: This thread has been split by the forum administrators. Discussion on "Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality" should continue here. Discussions on "Internal Force/energy" should continue in the new thread: http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=590