WUDANG MARTIAL ARTS HISTORY

[HugoDarien]

I wonder what do you thing about this information that I read on Erles Montaigues Homepage: http://j-zone.org/erle/a_1979Articles/WUTANG.html

[beggarsu]

I believe Zhan Sanfeng's original treatise was originally called "Tai Chi Chuan Jing", so I believe the term has been around since it's creation (even though the copies I know of came through Yang Lu Chan as they have lots of his footnotes and commentaries throughout).

[Zhang Wuji]

To answer Hugo's question on the article on Mr Montaigue's website, I have been trying ever since I read it months ago to verify its authencity - to no avail. The thing about Mr Montaigue is that a lot of his historical material is greatly suspect even if I am convinced that his Old Yang style Taijiquan form is genuine.

So far, there is no evidence that Yang Luchan was taught by anyone other than Chen Changxin, although you have to admit it is strange that his skills far surpassed anyone at the Chen village. Even given his extraordinary talent and diligence, I suspect that he had access to some "secrets" not known to the Chen village. I will write more about this in future when I have organised my materials - I am verifying the sources.

[HugoDarien]

Good days hehe mm!?

Hello and thanks to every one who was and who answer , and expecial to Zhang Wuji ! that have a hard and tuff research on the wudang history!!! !!

Zhang Wuji dont you think that it could be very hard to you to find out the realy tru History of Wudang or tai chi art when it could be so that the art have been keep secret trugh the ages and when maybe some one have some secrets old document(s) about what now is call tai chi? Well I wish you good luck and hope for se your research conclusion in the future!

And to any other one, you can whrite too about what do you think! Happy day hopes so! GOD BYE !

[Ray]

Dear friends,

Wudang is a tricky matter in the martial arts world. Coming back from the mainland recently I have found that a lot of people do not believe in the existance of Wudang Kungfu or Zhang San Feng and a lot of recent scholarship towards to lead in that direction. It is pretty ironic though since I happened to meet a martial artist who claimed to teach Wudang Kungfu (although he called it Tai Chi until I prodded further) and I have to say that his abilities are impressive and the form he demonstrated was not anything I have ever seen before.

If anyone does have more evidence on the existance of Wudang or Zhang San Feng it would be nice to hear.

Thank you for your kind attention,

Divineshadow

[HugoDarien]

Thanks realy and please for give mi my inglish and if something makes you feel bad!!!

I wonder I sometime belive that martial art have exist since the first the first humans or like in the bible since Cain revolt to Adams first sons ! And I belive that many martial arts ways to figth has lost since and that still many martial arts still are secrets! However I belive that shaolin kung fu is a better martial art or the best martial arts of the world if we take to example the best martial art of wudang or anyother art to a fight whit the best martial art of shaolin and even if both are marvelous and have the same level of skill and chi Still shaolin kung fu have more patterns to use and more tecniques armed and unarmed so shaolin will win! Dont you thinks so you can said your Idea of this if you want! And even sometime belivs that Shaolin Wahnam is the best school on the earth to get the highest on martial art ! Any others that have some comments on this? And when can we se the others genuine martial art school of all the world and compares or read about them? Tanks for ever!

[Zhang Wuji]

When it comes to historical research of Wudang and Shaolin, I think it is important to bear in mind one caveat, that is, not everything that is put in writing is true or accurate. It seems that there is a trend towards believing everything that is set in print, whether in books or worse, on the Net.

When I was reading History, my teacher would stress that authorities are of great importance in verifying historical fact. Who says what is as important as what is being said. Any one can spin a conspiracy theory about historical figures, but anything said must be authenticated against a source. The student can then determine the veracity of the information or at least the extent to which the information can be relied upon.

In the research of Taijiquan, there are only two written sources that I trust, and ironically, the two sources share the same thesis title and reach opposite conclusions. They are "Taijiquan Zhi yanjiu" by Wu Tunan, and "Taijiquan Yanjiu" by Tang Hao / Gu Liuxin.

One reason for my reliance is the date of the research. These two theses were written or researched in the 1920s. What is the significance, you may ask? Before 1911, martial arts was viewed with suspicion by the Qing dynasty which were in its last days. Any marital arts sect not in the pocket of the Imperial Court were viewed with suspicion. Shaolin and Wudang-related sects were secretive, and information would not be available to the average researcher.

The 1920s was a special period. For the first time, there were no imperial restrictions on the martial arts. At the same time, the teaching of the arts became commercial and therefore less secretive. About 20 years later, the martial arts would go through a period of turbulence during World War 2 when every avallable fighting man was marshalled against the japanese invaders. Civil war would continue to disrupt the practice of the arts until the establishment of the PRC which then saw the outlawing of traditional arts, especially during the Cultural Revolution. For the 50 odd years till 1975, Chinese martial arts would be in pieces and it is unlikely that many masters would have been made.

Thus, after the movie Shaolin Temple was made in 1982 and several Hong Kong serials about Zhang Sanfeng made Shaolin and Wudang popular, there would not be any living person to provide a credible account of the respective histories. The sojourns made by modern authors such as Dan Docherty would be able to discover any person who had a direct oral transmission from the ancient masters.

In the 1920s, China saw a wave of pro-Western ideals and ideas, including Western scholarship disciplines, such as the use of biblographies, references and rigorous checking of information. Prior to this, much of Chinese history was passed down by oral tradition and story-telling, with the exception of court records (which were not always reliable) and the occasional ambitious works like Shi Ji (A History). To my knowledge, nothing like Shi Ji was attempted in the later years of Chinese history. It was also around this time that the first graduates of universities established by Western powers (eg Qinghua Daxue) after 1900 were beginning to apply their research skills to the study of their culture.

The two modern theses above saw the history of Taijiquan subject to strict research methodologies, with actual interviews and on-site visits at a time when the general public was not even aware of the richness of Shaolin and Wudang. Today, these places have become tourist traps.

Together with such methodologies, the timing of the research and the lineage of the reseachers, all of whom descended directly from the best masters of that time - Yang Shaohou, Chen Fake and Wu Jianquan - the theses represent the most accurate historical record one can find today. Every other written record borrows from these two sources, even if they add their own oral tradition.

[Ray]

Dear Zhang Wuji,

Thanks for the reply. Ironically it is one of the authors of the books you refer to,Tang Hao, that bothers me since his research seems to conclude that Wudang Kungfu and Zhang San Feng never existed which directly contradicts what Sifu Wong says in his Q & A. (I don't quite remember where he says this but if memory serves me correctly in 太极拳研究 (taijiquan yanjiu) he explains that Tai Chi was first developed by the Chen family with principles from Chinese medicine.
Furthermore if memory serves me correctly Tang Hao wrote another book on Shaolin that concludes that the Southern Shaolin Temple never existed!

I would really appreciate your comments on this,

Thank you,

Divineshadow

[HugoDarien]

about wudang Art !

thanks Zhang wuyi for your research it was sure hard work, SO now you have come to the end of research? I wonder if this books that you said are in inglish They are "Taijiquan Zhi yanjiu" by Wu Tunan, and "Taijiquan Yanjiu" by Tang Hao / Gu Liuxin?

Do you lived near wudangs montains? Have you been in the temple or temples in wudang montains is there beautifull ? jjee sure it is! well is very nice to have friend like you and like divineshadow and others!

Last question for now: do you have meet real masters of wudang montain and ask them like the master of Erle Montaigue or some one in that lineage?

TUSEN THANKS !!! !! TO YOU ALL ! nice haha