The Knights Templar

[Simon]

Over diner one night during the summer camp the subject of the Knights Templar came up in conversion. I guess we are always looking for a western version of the Shaolin Warrior Monk ideal.

The following week I was on holiday in the north of England visiting an old castle and found a good book in the gift shop. It only had a small section on the Knights Templar but this is what I can recall:

Around the 11th century, Europe knights answered the call of the Church and set off on the first crusade to recapature the holy cities of the middle east. The problem was that although most knights liked the idea of a little holiday in the sun, a few battles and the glory of war, they wanted to come on home afterwards. The job of protecting Pilgrims, and later whole cities, fell to the more dedicated, more religious knights who were prepared to stick around once the fun was over.

The first group of these knights was based in the Temple of Christ in Jerusalem. Hence they became know as the knights of the Temple or knights Templar.

Much appreciated in Europe, especially by the Church, the knights became well known. Recruiting campaigns across Europe saw their numbers rise and knights won many special powers and privileges. As many held land in Europe but were never there they gained many tax consessions. As long as they carried on with their job in the holylands people in Europe just kept them happy.

Despite being great warriors the Knights could not hold Jerusalem forever. At some point most of the land held fell back into the hands of the locals. With no job left to do the Knights Templar returned to their various home countries. It is here that the problems started.

Many of the knights had build great fortunes during their time away and many found the Europe they had left some years before had changed. Other local noblemen and knights were put out of place by the knights return. Add to this the fact that the Knights kept hold of many of their special privileges and it is no surprise that many started to very much dislike them.

At first rulers could not act against the knights as the Church was very powerful and still had much to thank the knights for. As the years passed though many forgot what the Knights had done for them in the holyland and just saw the wealth and the 'above the law' attitude. It was at this time that the king of France finally managed to have one of the knights accused of blasphemy. The whole order of the Knights Templar was then outlawed.

The rest is history!

The book seemed to have a very anti-templar bias. Maybe someone has some more positive stories?

History lesson over,

Simon

[Mark Blohm]

Hi Simon,

An interesting bit of history. Thank you for sharing it.

In my opinion, these Knights were not moral and righteous like the Shaolin Monks.

[QUOTE=Simon]The problem was that although most knights liked the idea of a little holiday in the sun, a few battles and the glory of war, they wanted to come on home afterwards. The job of protecting Pilgrims, and later whole cities, fell to the more dedicated, more religious knights who were prepared to stick around once the fun was over.[QUOTE=Simon]

'A few battles and the glory of war' went something like this: "Crusader armies marched to Jerusalem, sacking several cities on their way. In 1099, they took Jerusalem and massacred the population. As a result of the First Crusade, several small Crusader states were created, notably the Kingdom of Jerusalem." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades)

and

"The crusaders' atrocities against Jews in the German and Hungarian towns, later also in those of France and England, and in the massacres of non-combatants in Palestine and Syria have become a part of anti-Semitic history." (Ibid)

Despite these gruesome practices by the crusaders, "In Western Europe, the Crusades have traditionally been regarded by laypeople as heroic adventures, though the mass enthusiasm of common people was largely expended in the First Crusade, from which so few of their class returned." (Ibid)

Ah, I just found a full article about the Knights Templar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

It seems that the order of the Knights was formed after the first crusade, but at least their founder, Hughes de Payens, "served in the army of Godfroi de Boullion during the First Crusade." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_de_Payens)


Hope this shines more light on the subject.

Respectfully,

Mark

[Antonius]

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1962

[cnholmes]

Please lets be very careful referencing wikipedia.

It advertises itself as "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". This means it does not require academic or vocational qualifications to contribute; it means work can be completely unreferenced (i.e. someone could post any old rubbish and claim its true just because they wrote it down, or because "it stands to reason") and it means there is no guarantee that any kind of peer review is valid (wiki relies on the readers to edit stuff they think is wrong).

I'm stressing this because the subject of History is notorious for unqualified people writing all sorts of cinema-fed or government sponsored rubbish, even without realising they're doing it. If the people reviewing the work fall into that same trap then unwary readers might think it has been validated.

History should be referenced. We can never reach the absolute truth - we can't even get to the truth of things occuring in our own time. However, a contemporary account written by someone alive at the time, better still if they were there at the location when things were happening, this kind of account has far more integrity than someone who writes a book based on a book they read which was written by someone who had read a book based on a book based on a book...

In my opinion - the best reference is direct experience. Your grandparents stories of wartime are far better than the writings of a historian who wasn't there. Even then, they can't give a complete account of everything that happened, just as you can't give a complete account of everything that happens in your town even though you're there. Some contemporary accounts are full of the government sponsored rubbish of that time. I have an account of a battle written by a soldier who was there and he gives the number of losses on each side - how does he know that!

So my suggestion is that when you read history, you first have a flick through to see who they are or where they get their information. If this information is not available or looks flawed then keep in mind that what they write might just be their uninformed opinion, might be based on someone else's uninformed opinion, or might be written for dramatic effect rather than for accuracy.

Another thing to consider is the motivation of the author and who is the intended audience.

Chris.

[Simon]

Thanks for the info Mark. I guess even the good guys in the Dark Ages were still pretty evil! It raises the question of is there such a thing as a just war?

Anthony, I must have missed that last thread about their Chi Kung.

Chris, once we've finished this thread we can submitt it to Wiki.

I found a few website last night, I'll read up and added more tales and bravery, valour and slaughter soon.

Simon

[Darryl]

An absolutely excellent post Chris, one that rather nicely summarisies several of my own reservations regarding the accuracy of scholars (yes, it is a rather sweeping statement ).

Regarding the fall/persecution of the Knights Templar, it's worth noting (and is already in the Bannockburn thread) that a lot of the current UK was directly and indirectly influenced by their teachings. Since I don't really know, I'm shutting up now but, like Simon, it's an area I'm currently doing some research into.

One thing I would note is that, maybe due to their travel and exposure to new cultures, they were some of the best tacticians and fighters of their day, using some extremely wonderful techniques. Also in the Bannockburn thread, there's mention of a Marvellous technique being used by Robert the Bruce (after he and his army were rumoured to have been trained by the Knights Templars in return for sanctuary).

[Chiahua]

I'm reading a wonderful book by Umberto Eco called Foucault's Pendulum. It's pretty widespread but for people who haven't read it, it's a great page turner. A few points to add to Chris' cautionary note, some thta are raised in the book: all secret societies are motivated to keep their intentions/practices secret. One of the more effective ways of concealment is to hide amongst charlatans. Another point, history is usually written by the victors. And the Templars seemed to have been forced underground. So the possible sources of dis-information seem to come from numerous angles.
To compare, up until recently (say, the last century) such was the case with qigong: lots of charlatans and lots of myth-making.

[Mark Blohm]

Hi all,

Sihing Anthony,

After reading that thread I have a new perspective on the Knights Templar.

Chris,

You're right. I was looking for some quick information on the subject, but perhaps I should use(or not use at all) wikipedia as a guide to primary material rather than as a source.

Simon,

I hastily equated Knights Templar with Crusader, but looking at it now, that seems unwarranted. And wars have the tendency to turn everything around into a living hell, so, maybe it doesn't matter if a war is just or not(?).

Respectfully,

Mark

[cnholmes]

I couldn't resist having a bit poke round myself: here's what came up first on a google search for "knights templar"

http://www.templarhistory.com/bruno.html

This is an example of referenced history...

This analysis is primarily based on the French Rule (OF Rule) as translated into English by J. M. Upton-Ward. This amazing set of military regulations describes the responsibilities of the Order¹s members in wartime and in peace. It evolved from the original "Primitive Rule" created by the Council of Troyes in 1129 over the entire 180-year history of the Order until its suppression by King Philip the Fair in the early 1300¹s.

If you can get hold of these 'Rules' - either on-line or in some libraries archives and read them in conjunction with this article, you'll find your research a lot more rewarding

However, remember that official rules and manuals are just that: the 'official' rules. That doesn't guarantee they were followed.

Another site that has some interesting references on is http://www.veling.nl/anne/templars/

Happy Searching,
Chris.

[cnholmes]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tyre-templars.html

[drunken boxer]

Chris,

Your first post was absolutely spot on. So many arrogant people 'know' all about conflicts in other times and places when in reality all they know is propaganda.

It reminds me on a comedian I saw once who said "No trust me, I've done a lot of research on this... some of my information comes from enclyopedias and stuff, and some comes from talking to blokes in pubs - because its amazing what blokes in pubs know!"

[cnholmes]

It reminds me on a comedian I saw once who said "No trust me, I've done a lot of research on this... some of my information comes from enclyopedias and stuff, and some comes from talking to blokes in pubs - because its amazing what blokes in pubs know!"

drunken boxer,

Thats spot on too

Cheers,
Chris.

[Simon]

After abit more research I could bore people with a ton of dates and names but I won't. I will say:

They tooks vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and swore allegiance to the patriarch of Jerusalem. So abit like our Shaolin moral code or a Buddhist monk's vows?

My girlfriend has just come in with my dinner so I'll finish this later.

Cheers

Simon