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  • #16
    Dear Frederick Sisook,

    Taijiquan combat sequences are really great, I just need to practice them more and more to get them ingrained. They surely are sensibly constructed and provide everything needed for systematic learning of fundamental skills from footwork, timing, and spacing to bridging, covering, and entering. On our last Wednesday lesson I felt like I could be nearing some kind of breakthrough, but time will tell what's up.

    Haha, I too wanted to learn Shaolin Kungfu because it promised more power and magical skills with methods such as the One Finger Shooting Zen! My learning of Taijiquan over Shaolin Kungfu was a bit of coincidence and fortunate choice which I think proved to be the right decision. My experience is that flowing force fits me and my goals well.

    I would say that training Taijiquan combat sequences has provided so far exactly what the Taijiquan syllabus describes (currently two lessons of level 4). My emphasis is still mostly on picture-perfect form rather than direct combat application. Please note that my combat sequence training has been quite underdeveloped because I have had difficulty finding the right intensity of training to cope with my remaining health issues. Sometimes I have felt that even physical or form level training makes me feel not so good, so that has kept my practice at minimum. Nevertheless, my recent experiences confirm that practicing combat applications has enhanced my ability flow and keep focused and rooted in demanding circumstances. I also took notice some time ago that I have started applying Taijiquan principles of minimizing opponent's force in conversational settings with good success.

    I am mostly keeping my practice details in my training log, so that I can keep a track of my own development. Here is a recent entry that addresses your questions about Essence of Shaolin.

    Learning the routine and the form of the Flower set has been a breeze compared to the Essence of Shaolin. Markus Sipak will teach us some of the former's applications within two weeks, yet the patterns are not very outlandish in the first place when compared to the Essence of Shaolin. My experience with either set is still very inadequate, but it suffices to state that both are much more sophisticated and technical than what Taijiquan's basics offer, but that is to be expected because they are among the most advanced sets of our School. Learning Cotton Palm did remind me though that there is a lot of profundity in Taijiquan, especially in Cloud Hands.

    Dear Kristian Sisook,

    Thank you for sharing your Essence of Shaolin insights! I would love to read more of these from you or anyone else.

    With sincere respect,
    Olli

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
      Very keen observations, Kristian! You've come to a conclusion regarding the transitional movements that took me longer than I care to admit to even recognize existed. About a year and a half after the Baguazhang Summer Camp, I finally started realizing how Open Window Observe Moon (the first attacking pattern in the Swimming Dragon Baguazhang set) could be used to cover virtually any attack aimed above the waist, and from there, that insight spilled over several years later after getting some particular corrections regarding my Mirror Hand and Hand Sweep, which gave me a much finer appreciation for range, speed, and the timing of different patterns. It even made me look back at some Swimming Dragon patterns which I had just barely been able to utilize in the past. I'm not too ashamed to admit that some times all that was missing was a thread hand here, a taming palm there, or even just a single step off in one direction that had been eluding me for years, hahaha.

      Likewise, changing height and direction has been quite the fun experiment. Back in my Kuntao days, I played around with striking high, then dropping into a kneeling stance, returning to high, then to the middle, and whatever combinations seemed fun at the time; surprisingly effective, especially against people who have not nailed down the skill of defending against attacks (be they strikes, kicks, or whatever else) from the four major directions. Basic syllabus strikes again!

      Regarding that pattern #27 from the Essence of Shaolin set, it reminds me a lot of White Crane Flaps Wings, at least from the Taijiquan syllabus. In my Northern-polluted mind, Fui Xin Kicks Bushel is similarly an organ seeking kick, though with a clearing Hook Hand, haha. Ah well, different names for the same pattern, and the same name for different patterns. Regardless, it's a fun one! I've used a similar arm movement before against some boxers and kick boxers, though probably closer to the arm movement of White Horse Presents Hoof (Naughty Boy Kicks Door in Baguazhang; always a fun time with the names ) against forceful punches. We'll have to train again together some time; let me know how the knowledge-beatings go at the Essence of Shaolin course!

      Welcome to the party, Drunken Boxer! How is your training going, what have you realized lately?

      As always, just great great stuff here!!

      For some reason, once this gradual shift of focus on pieces OF and transitional aspects AROUND full patterns happened, learning the latter became easier too! I think now that, in some way, the small transitional portions are the real gates and keys to "unlocking" the larger pattern (which is a series of movements anyway in and of itself, a hive-organism vs a single point). Watching three bagua techniques chained together, there may as well be three million subtle pieces of information a mind can analyze on the kinesthetic level alone; multiplied by application potentials, and then taken to the power of variations and situational modifications. Baffling but awesome!

      And YESSSSS on the Kuntao! In Silat, we often change and spiral around. Spiral* because circling around at the same plane of height is really just circling, even if you are spinning*. We had several drills and techniques that were level-change based, like throwing three sharp hooks, one high with the right, twisting and lowering the whole body to strike with the left hook at the middle, then again in reverse and lower still to strike the thigh or knee with the right again; doing this continuously up and down for 10-20 minutes is enough for some EXCELLENT skill on its own! Add leg 'hooking' and 'wrapping' with arms, hidden strikes, etc. and you have one heck of an emphasized tactic.

      Essence of Shaolin has downloading quite a few Shaolin techniques that change height to various levels in total-body integrated changes to attain and execute the pattern, that I found myself, these past two nights, spinning over and over and over again just executing upward and downward sweeping strikes and throws over and over to either direction in the MOST fun sessions

      More exploring needed, as ALWAYS, but ohhhh so wonderful to dip my foot in the water and start to do some detective work at my low level and piece-out and together some uses for the treasures I don't yet comprehend.

      Kristian

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
        Glad to hear you're seizing and attaining results, Drunken Boxer! I'll definitely throw my vote behind anyone wanting to train zhan zhuang and One Finger Shooting Zen everyday. Some days, the mental clarity developed from training One Finger Shooting Zen, especially, is almost painful, which tells me that I'm in an adjustment period and need to scale my training back a notch. Other times, it's quite exhilirating!
        Ha it's funny you mention mental clarity and your comment made me notice a bit of loss in mental clarity myself! What I should have said, rather than that I train OFZ every day, is that in order to avoid overtraining, in order to get hopefully the most enjoyment and best results from my training, I allow my body and feelings to guide me each morning. If I feel charged when I wake up, I will practise usually chi kung, stances, One Finger Zen and Five Animals as my morning session. Sifu taught us on the Wing Choon course how to practise Siu Lim Tao at the form, chi and force/jing/consolidated force level. And something similar in One Finger Zen. OFX is the focus of my morning session, if I feel charged I will practise at the force level. If not charged, but not tired, I will practise at the chi level. If tired, I will either practise it at the form level or if really tired I will not practise OFZ at all! So after the OFZ course in Feb I would practise it maybe 2 times per week, whereas over the summer I got to the stage where it was 7 days a week most weeks, but at the minute probably an average of 5, so not quite every day!

        I should also say that sometimes in the middle of training at the form level I might feel the chi start to flow, then move to the chi level, and then it might get stronger and I move to the force level for example, and it can happen the other way round too.

        On the good days, which are pleasingly frequent and common at the minute, if not constant, I definitely agree it is exhilarating!

        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
        You've also got quite the neat selection of sets! Don't suppose you feel like sharing what sort of rotation schedule you use for them? Do you often wind up training an internal force exercise that is closely "related" to those sets? In the past, when I was going to have a "Shaolin" session, I'd practice Shaolin stances, Two Finger Shooting Zen, or what-have-you, versus a "Taijiquan" session of Three Circle Stance or Lifting Water, compared to a "Baguazhang" session of Circle Walking or Baguazhang zhan zhuang, etc.,
        Well just for context, I always wanted to learn Xingyi, Wing Choon and Northern Mantis from Sifu. (And would still love to learn Southern Mantis (Chow Gar) from him). I learned Wing Choon first and so after that course it was the main thing I practised for a long time. I learned Xingyiquan in 2015 and it was the main thing I practised for a long time. With Praying Mantis, I had a lot going on so I incorporate it in but it wasn't the main thing. However about a year ago, I am not exactly sure why but I just started practising it a lot. At any of these stages, I would also practise the other sets regularly enough to maintain them.

        Occasionally in my training, not very regularly, I just get this feeling and the chi kind of drives me itself through spontaneous patterns, stances and movements, it is the most fantastic feeling but I can not generate it, I can only enjoy it when it happens. Mostly it includes patterns I have practised before, but in different combinations, and with a different feeling.

        Then a while back I fancied going to a Five Animals course, I didn't make it but I did some of the prep ie learned the set. I found that the Five Animals set most closely represents the sort of things I did in that chi flow, so I have kept up the practise of it and I love it.

        Generally I let my feelings guide me, sometimes I feel like practising really hard force, sometimes more flowing force, sometimes both or something in between and so I will practise which set I feel like. But if that means I practise one exclusively for a few weeks then I will "force" myself to go through the others for maintenance. I consider myself lucky in that whichever of those sets I use, I feel chi flowing and force developing.

        This probably means I am neglecting some basics, I know you guys prefer the original combat sequences and so on, but I did used to practise all that, knew the main sequences, tried to break records in stances etc (not that I ever did lol!) and all I can say is that my training feels so good at the minute that I am almost superstitious about not changing it too much, except it always changes after I train with Sifu and learn new things and insight. So hopefully there are different but still good paths to take in training.

        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
        but nowadays, if I can't think of what to practice, I'll default to One Finger Shooting Zen, heh.
        I get that, I do the same thing.

        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
        I hope you're able to get in some good learning experiences with your sequences and experience! Do you have a particularly favorite combat sequence?
        I described some of this on another thread somewhere, but I have two main sequences. On Sifu's advice, I composed my own, and practised them in order to use them for sparring. One of them is all from Xingyiquan. The other is a combination of Praying Mantis, Xingyiquan and basic syllabus stuff, including a great idea I got on that thread from Matt Fenton. In truth it is probably a touch too long and perhaps I should break it into too. When I sparred with a boxer last, I couldn't implement the whole thing, but I got a couple of the patterns to work a couple of times each. It's not much in hindsight but it pleased me at the time.

        What I would like to do is take out a couple of the individual bits of each sequence, drill them with a partner for a while, and ramp up the threat and spontaneous nature going from sequence sparring to sparring (where he plays a boxer role) to see which bits of my sequences work best and then I could form shorter sequences from that. This is thinking work and travelling work though and I need all my thinking and travelling for work at the minute. (Though discussing here has been a nice break from that!)

        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
        That "charged" feeling, the feeling of confidence (and occasionally, the feeling of arrogant invincibility) is something that's also evolved in my practice.
        For me, I would describe it like there have been downtimes, lengthy ones even, in my training where I start to feel my age, and don't feel physically up to sparring regardless of the efficacy or otherwise of my skills and techniques. But the charged feeling makes me feel like I haven't aged at all, feel even better than when I was younger, that I could at least go a few rounds with someone and have an exchange. I know not to read too much into that feeling because I felt awesome before my second boxer sparring session and yet he got the better of that, but I was physically able to exchange at least.

        For me the feeling doesn't ever reach "invincibility" but I could readily see how it would for others, if they have more force, more flow, if they have better experiences to fuel it and so forth.

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi Kristian,

          I don't know much about BJJ except what I have seen in the UFC ie I can recognise an armbar and a few other things. Also I am not very good with recognising pattern names in kungfu, I remember things visually or what I have seen or practised, but not the names. Hence I would focus on the boxing bits that I recognise a bit more here.

          But first to say, it sounds like you have done a lot of good work, and I include your post here, because if I become familiar with the patterns you are talking about, or for those who are familiar already, I find it very useful to have the moves written out in sequence then as a learning aid. Similar to what Fred laid out on another thread.

          I am most of all pleased to hear of your wide knowledge and experience training MMA, Muay Thai, Boxing etc. It is great to hear that someone who know muay thai has found things from our kungfu that they think will work, and has practised it against people who know what they are doing. And to have an MMA training partner in your own brother?! Wow! So that was very pleasing to read.

          The pattern I have most chance of understanding is this one:

          Originally posted by Kristian S. View Post
          A runner-up is pattern #14 "Hungry Tiger Pulls Goat"

          I will most likely have to wait until the course for this one, but attempted it against boxing jabs and crosses. It "worked" but never made contact. Even the first time; it was easily covered as any decent boxer, when having his jab parried, also makes sure to cover for uppercuts. My normal boxing parries are either strike ("true cross") over and through the punch (direct counter, no defense), strike the attacking hand or arm, or use the conventional press/slap-away parry. I used the top hand of this technique to press down the incoming punch while I stepped deeeeply into the opponent's center to execute the other upward strike and it was very simply covered with a palm. This strategy is commonly done with standard boxing parry and uppercut combos anyway; they may have just slipped into my subconscious.

          I CAN see this, because of the deep footwork and stance pressure applied to the opponent*, creating the opening for other techniques to get through, but, as is, for my level now, I don;t yet have a good question to which this is an answer for me that's viable in my incompetent hands.*...more training is necessary....
          I have trained at 3 main boxing clubs, each produced amateur champions and a couple of pros (not me in either case!) and just to mention that one of those clubs was ultra-technical, but one of them did very little technical training at all. It was mainly about finding out who were the toughest prospects, and give them plenty of physical training to produce really tough, durable, hard hitting slugger type fighters. There are fighters, especially in Britain, who have become world champions without much technique.

          I say this as a partial excuse as to why I don't understand all the points you make here, in regard to defending the uppercut, you are talking about the boxer just bringing his (parried) jab hand back to his guard and the uppercut hitting his gloves/elbows, or are you talking about something more elaborate?

          I am not sure what you mean by "true cross" do you mean when the guy throws a left jab, you throw a right cross over the top of it, deflecting it as you go? Actually I have some videos stored somewhere I will look up with Mayweather and co doing things like this. Probably best for a separate thread though if not in keeping with the original intention of this one.

          And by your standard boxing parries, do you mean things you do as a boxer, or things you do as a kungfu exponent to a boxer - what do you mean by striking the attacking hand or arm for example? (I know you don't mean parry because you said that was a separate technique.)

          PS one of the clubs I trained in, they didn't even teach how to parry the jab, and if you listen to Mike McCallum he will talk about how he is amazed how few pros actually parry the jab these days! I am not advocating this, to me it is one of the best things I have ever learned!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post
            Hi Kristian,

            I say this as a partial excuse as to why I don't understand all the points you make here, in regard to defending the uppercut, you are talking about the boxer just bringing his (parried) jab hand back to his guard and the uppercut hitting his gloves/elbows, or are you talking about something more elaborate?

            I am not sure what you mean by "true cross" do you mean when the guy throws a left jab, you throw a right cross over the top of it, deflecting it as you go? Actually I have some videos stored somewhere I will look up with Mayweather and co doing things like this. Probably best for a separate thread though if not in keeping with the original intention of this one.

            And by your standard boxing parries, do you mean things you do as a boxer, or things you do as a kungfu exponent to a boxer - what do you mean by striking the attacking hand or arm for example? (I know you don't mean parry because you said that was a separate technique.)
            Hello again!

            Yes indeed, VERY lucky the more I reflect on how few people have such access; ironically, I live in a small town with no reason at all to have martial resources of any kind, that somehow has a ton of many different kinds from all kinds of traditions! haha

            1) To address these parts, the opponent defends the "uppercut" from the patters (which actually, in my mind, is a "gunting" which means scissor in Malay, and is a Silat principle of attack (i.e. "scissoring" the attacking hands on a single target, attacking from opposing trajectories, ideally parallel, in order to both ensure you 'catch' and damage SOMETHING, or provide a surprise double attack to an opponent anticipating only one simple strike or defense/counter)) by palming it with his back hand, palm downward beneath his chin. I described the downward moving hand of the pattern parrying and pressing the jab, but the second hand that follows upward from the pattern, the boxer just simply palms/catches this way without having to move at all, hence my current "wall" in overcoming this counter/defense.

            2) As to my definition of a "true cross", exactly that You simply throw your cross over the lead jab, defense built-in (I threw the term out as that's how I was taught it, by the clarification of "true" cross vs. standard "not-your-lead-hand" usage for the punch being called a cross).

            3) By standard boxing parries, I did mean using boxing against boxing (i.e. the conventional slap/pat away of on-coming straight punches). This would be anything that deflects, so not including covering or head movement, focusing on what the hands and arms are doing regarding a boxer's defense to the pattern and the difficulties those defenses raise for my trying to apply the pattern against these situation in my experimentation. Though the pattern allows me to press down (and extended version of the boxing slap-away parry against the jab), the upward portion of the scissor motion is easily caught by the boxer by simply covering it, palm down to catch the uppercut-like fist.

            4) As far as striking the attacking arm or hand, this is in boxing (where you can uppercut or hook the arm that's in-coming), but I also mean any self-defense boxing and other limb-destruction counters to jabs and crosses (for instance, catching the fist with your elbow, slashing at the oncoming fists with your elbows, punching straight at the forearm of opponents who throw their jab with a downward/elbow-centric extension of the punch, hooking the shoulder or elbow of the jabbing arm, punching down over the fist, uppercutting the bottom of the forearm of the attacking arm, etc.). The two here that work with gloves are good examples, but the others with elbows, and even the fist counters, are a result of our bare-knuckle practice. I don't know if you know the term "Philly Shell" as well, but the defense is one I started learning toward the end of my formal boxing training and it emphasizes making "frames" out of your parallel and perpendicular forearms and hands and continuously switching and moving this frame, popping it on and off, to defend, frustrate, and counter. In this style and technique, there are quite a few punches you can do to target opponents arms and that can be targeted to your own while this "shell" is up. From this technique we practiced quite a few limb-targeted counters over time. It's similar to the karate point fighting stance oddly enough and almost allows you to make shields with your arms to defend head and body as well.

            As far as parrying the jab, once I learned head movement, I fell in love, but after quite some time away from drilling head and body movement against all strikes, parrying has returned as a great favorite, especially with my developing bridging skills, sticking and causing some frustration is safer and easier at the moment for me* than dipping and dodging haha But good head and body movement is still my go-to and my secret obsession haha (HENCE my search for some solid drunken style skills... somewhere... some day...)

            Let me know if anything here only added more verbal confusion! I'll try to make a short video response if so at some point this week.

            Best,

            Kristian

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
              Hi all! Hope everyone's training has been going well. The question of the moment is: What are you working on right now? How long are you planning to work on it?
              Slowly and I mean slowly working through The Essence of Shaolin

              Comment


              • #22
                Ok thanks Kristian.

                1. Ok understood. Can't recall seeing anyone defending an uppercut like that, but it is something I haven't studied much. I've just realised I have never paid much attention to uppercut defence. In my own sparring and boxing, no one really used uppercuts on me much that I can remember, probably because we weren't very high level, although I used them a bit, actually stopped one person with them. I didn't throw that many and can't remember how people defended them. I could study some pro fighters to see how they deal with them. The reason I don't study them much is because no one really used them on me in the ring that I can remember much, and definitely no one ever used them on me in the street. It is usually me trying to get in close range rather than the other I suppose is another reason.

                2. Cool, got it. In our terminology I have seen this as an almost no-defence-direct-counter ie just punch over the top of it without even touching the jab, or have seen them wait till the jab falls short, seen a slight parry then over with the cross. In training scenario description I have seen Floyd Mayweather do the one where he throws the right cross to deflect the jab and go on to punch at the same time, but can't recall seeing it in a fight - probably I have but its been too fast for me to notice.

                3. Ok got it, thanks.

                4. Very interesting. In terms of boxing, have seen boxers use the elbows to defend a couple of ways. In terms of striking the opponents arm can't say I've seen that as much, though you could include the way some people throw a jab as a defence to a right cross, ie if you throw the jab up beside your shoulder then there is a good chance you will strike the right hand coming in, or it will merely strike your jabbing arm/shoulder (and not your head) I suppose that is one.

                I've not seen boxers really hook or uppercut at incoming punches, maybe you have, or maybe you mean that is mainly in the bareknuckle stuff? Of which I have no experience other than watching on youtube from a safe distance! I remember one of my first streetfights though from school, the guy had got a head start, hit me a few times and I was kind of buckled over, then I just started swinging kind of hooks where I was trying to punch his punches at the same time as moving forwards, so I probably swiped about 4 times which hit his arms (clumsily) bought me time whilst I was moving forward and by the 5th and 6th swings I was actually hitting him. I can't remember if that idea came to me in the fight naturally, or when I was working on the punchbag in preparation (I knew the guy wanted to fight me.)

                I haven't heard of the Philly Shell but it sounds very interesting!

                I tried to move my head and my feet when boxing, but my boxing "enlightenment" was learning how to parry as part of learning defence in my first "technical" club. So it was my favourite.

                In terms of kungfu, I am very interested in what you say because being small myself, I think "limb destruction" techniques are one of the best things for a small person to use. It can be difficult to reach past a bigger persons long arms, so it makes sense to have moves to target those arms I think.

                Thanks for the info Kristian, enjoyed reading that.
                Last edited by drunken boxer; 12 September 2017, 06:19 PM. Reason: included previous reply in text by accident

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mark CH View Post
                  Slowly and I mean slowly working through The Essence of Shaolin
                  Some people just have far too much time on their hands

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post
                    .

                    This probably means I am neglecting some basics, I know you guys prefer the original combat sequences and so on, but I did used to practise all that, knew the main sequences, tried to break records in stances etc (not that I ever did lol!) .
                    Fan, yes. Haha. If not of the sequences themselves then the lessons they each teach in fighting. The sparring methodology, and what the sequences can become. It's all in the philosophy pages.

                    I'm so glad my Sifu made me practice stances and footwork for a year then slow movement through the combat sequences.
                    Shaolin Wahnam USA

                    "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hi David, probably it started because the first time through, I couldn't see how to use anything in the basic sequences against a boxer, like when I tried black tiger, fierce tiger or precious duck, I just got hit myself even when it was just someone playing a boxer let alone a real boxer, and I never saw anyone else using them either at full speed against a boxer at that point.

                      However in hindsight, a lot of that was probably to do with incorrect covering/opening/use of guard hand for one thing.

                      And on the other thread I keep mentioning, Matt Fenton generously shared a sequence he practises composed from the basic sequences, that I took on in part, and have since managed to use with some moderate success against a boxer. So the upshot is, I should take a project to revisit the basic sequences with those insights. It's one of a few things I would plan to do when my work/life balance shifts a bit more toward life in future hopefully!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hello again! Sorry for being incommunicado, the weather's been having an interesting effect on the workplace here in Florida, but hopefully things will be smoothing out over the coming weeks. Glad to see there's been some discussion here when I was gone!

                        Thanks for sharing the boxing and MMA perspectives, Kristian and Drunken Boxer! I've never spent much time at all actually training boxing or MMA; all I've ever done is occasionally spar or work with a few such folks over the years (as well as a plethora of people who said they practiced kung fu, but only sparred like boxers).

                        Regarding uppercuts, I've had the dubious pleasure of getting hit by plenty of those, especially at the beginning of my aiki jujutsu days; such strikes were considered a part of the basic syllabus, so we trained those quite a bit! Granted, they were often performed from the Horse Riding stance, as were most of the other strikes in that style. Funnily enough, the main defense used against that was an inward Cloud Hands-like movement, followed by a stolen step similar to the third combat sequence in the Flower Set, followed up with an appropriate counter-attack. Personally, I had much better success using that sort of counter (or most counters, to be honest) when an opponent fully committed to their strike, kick, or what-have-you.

                        I've never punched "over" an incoming strike without touching it, but we learnt something similar-though-different at the Cosmos Palm course. I was also lucky enough to catch a video of an Intensive Taijiquan course to see Sifu demonstrating Fierce Dragon Across Stream (aka Lazily Rolling Up Sleeves) to simultaneously brush aside an incoming strike and to hit the opponent (or even fell them or lock them in a qin-na maneuver) in increasingly subtle ways. This video gave me the "Aha!" moment that unlocked the idea of using the transitional and component movements of a pattern (including its footwork in moving to an appropriate location) which Kristian mentions above to give me much better safe coverage, even in seemingly "wide open" movements (for which Baguazhang is unfortunately famous). It was a fun geometry lesson for me, having to ponder (intellectualize, even ) over what angles of attack were covered by particular movements, and what angles of attack an opponent could exploit and transform into in the course of my own defense. The idea was born for me back in 2011, gained some traction after practicing Baguazhang from 2012 to 2013, but the first time I actually saw it in action or was able to perform it myself against a real free sparring opponent was in 2015. Go figure, hahaha. Better yet, all of the component movements and techniques are found in the basic syllabus, though the idea (aka the mental awareness of the strategy, though I've met plenty of fighters who have unconsciously gained these skills from plenty of free sparring, but are unable to verbally tell me why they are successful fighters in specific terms) may not have occurred to folks.

                        I have far more experience (and a curious delight) in damaging an opponent's incoming "weapons." Perhaps I just like punishing people who attack me, who knows, hahaha. I first ran across the idea in Tantui, especially early on in the third combat sequence Second Brother Chops Firewood and later on the patterns Copper Hammer Strikes Rock and Single Strike Bell Sounds to damage an opponent's arm or leg with a smashing strike and then using a whipping strike against an avenue of attack left open by a numbed or injured limb. I had a surprisingly high level of success against some Muai Thai practitioners using that, numbing up their wrists and forearms before they could transition from a long punch to an elbow. I'm only about 5'5" myself, which means that I occasionally struggle to reach things on the top shelf. Then again, my jumping is all right, so occasionally the Tantui comes out again there. :P

                        I get the feeling that people like David and me are addicts that keep trying to push the basic sequences onto an unsuspecting public, hahaha. They've just worked so well for us that it's pretty silly, almost like magic. I mentioned before to some folks that the reason I adore the Cosmos Palm set is because it's such a natural outgrowth from the basic sequences. In fact, there's one sequence which is basically "just" the Black Tiger Steals Heart sequence, except with vertical palm strikes instead of level fists. The guard hand and covering motions that I've used to make Black Tiger work are made much more explicit in Sifu's performance of the Cosmos Palm set.

                        I'll admit that early on, before I attended Baguazhang, a lot of the videos I watched of people performing the basic sequences came from videos of people who were in "just learning the sequences" mode and often just "letting" the initiator enter into them without a decisive taming hand or "asking the way." I'll admit that I may have picked up some bad habits from watching those videos, especially since I was training without the benefit of a sifu in those times, but I was still able to draw on my aiki jujutsu experience (which had plenty of hard sparring and no one just "giving" me free entry, even at the basic student level). In aiki jujutsu, we didn't formally learn "asking the way" at the basic student level, but we all learnt early on that if we didn't move the opponent's arm out of the way, we'd run right into their guard-hand (often a guard-fist).

                        I believe it was the video series of How to Think and Act like a Master that really demonstrated safe and decisive entry. It doesn't hurt that there are plenty of videos of the current generation of instructors and advanced practitioners that are demonstrating rock-solid fundamentals, not to mention the main specialties that were available to practitioners of Shaolin Wahnam "back in the day," including some material that I'm sure would be very useful for the upcoming Winter Camp.

                        At an individual technique level, though, I'm not too ashamed to admit that the first time I sparred someone that actually knew what to do with their kung fu (David, back in 2015), the first time I used Precious Duck, he just smacked me in the top of the head when we were going through the basic Shaolin sequences. Now I reflexively use White Horse Turns Head instead, which uses the back palm and arm as a protective "roof," especially when I move from high or middle to low. Yet another lesson I gained from Tantui. I think that in another life, I may have become a Northern Shaolin specialist, but instead I learnt how to walk in circles, hahaha. Oh well, Tantui is thankfully well preserved in the Canadian and Japanese branches of Shaolin Wahnam!

                        Welcome to the party, Martin siheng! How has the practice been treating you lately?
                        I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
                          I have far more experience (and a curious delight) in damaging an opponent's incoming "weapons." Perhaps I just like punishing people who attack me, who knows, hahaha. I first ran across the idea in Tantui, especially early on in the third combat sequence Second Brother Chops Firewood and later on the patterns Copper Hammer Strikes Rock and Single Strike Bell Sounds to damage an opponent's arm or leg with a smashing strike and then using a whipping strike against an avenue of attack left open by a numbed or injured limb. I had a surprisingly high level of success against some Muai Thai practitioners using that, numbing up their wrists and forearms before they could transition from a long punch to an elbow. I'm only about 5'5" myself, which means that I occasionally struggle to reach things on the top shelf.
                          It was very good to hear that you've had success vs Muay Thai practitioners with this Fred! Can I ask, did you strike their arms as they punched, like intercept the punch on its way in? That's my assumption, or did you for example take a step back to avoid the punch then strike their arm at it's sort of 'spent' range, or maybe attack their arms while they were holding them in guard position?

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                          • #28
                            Different patterns helped me out with different timing of the opponent's punch, especially with those Tantui swinging arm techniques. I found that the combination of Copper Hammer Strikes Rock/Single Strike Bell Sounds worked best for me after my sparring opponent's strike was "spent" at near full extension. Some times I would simply swallow back in my stance to strike their arm before shifting back forward to strike at their body or head; other times, I would step back into a False Leg stance to use a whipping fist akin to Single Whip Saves Emperor, especially against a long or low attack such as a thrust kick or anything akin to Precious Duck.

                            At the opposite end, some times I just felt like smashing my way through their guard-position arms. In those situations, I had the most success with repeatedly chaining Second Brother Chops Firewood (a tactic which Sifu called Three Rings Around the Moon in Tantui). Most of my non-kung fu partners had no idea what to do against that since your swinging arms almost seem to make a blender effect in the space within your reach. Most kung fu people, however, if they are confident in threading and bridging skills, however, or if they just so happen to have enough force to stop your swinging arms cold with a block or grip, will know what to do against that tactic. Otherwise, however, you can almost just walk right through most opponents, especially those who lack the confidence and willpower to defeat you.

                            Back when I first used Three Rings Around the Moon, my main force training for about two years had been Baguazhang force training. Despite that being relatively flowing, I was still battering my way through folks of my size or greater, despite them having some decent muscular strength. I wouldn't be surprised if someone who had spent significant amounts of time on Golden Bridge, One Finger Shooting Zen, or Iron Arm would have even more success with that rather straight forward and destructive tactic.
                            I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

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                            • #29
                              Ok thanks, if it works on muay thai guys, it should work on just about any style, so good stuff.

                              I've never been fast enough so far to strike a boxers arms as they punch with straight punches, though I can parry a decent amount (using either boxing movements or kung fu / cloud hands type movements). Then again, I've never practised those particular striking moves enough to expect them to work, it's kind of an unvirtuous circle ie I don't practise them enough, so they don't work so well, so I don't think they work for me so well, so I practise them even less, so they work even less well, etc. What I have wondered is could I parry the first punch or two and then strike the parried/spent/retreating arms as a first step.

                              I did some applications with a guy who practises iron palm, and he was able to 'slap' punches on their way in. We didn't go full speed I suppose, then again fortunately he went nowhere near full force. I believe it would have a chance of working for him at full speed, and I certainly believe if it did he could take the opponents arms out of action.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post
                                Ok thanks, if it works on muay thai guys, it should work on just about any style, so good stuff.

                                I've never been fast enough so far to strike a boxers arms as they punch with straight punches, though I can parry a decent amount (using either boxing movements or kung fu / cloud hands type movements). Then again, I've never practised those particular striking moves enough to expect them to work, it's kind of an unvirtuous circle ie I don't practise them enough, so they don't work so well, so I don't think they work for me so well, so I practise them even less, so they work even less well, etc. What I have wondered is could I parry the first punch or two and then strike the parried/spent/retreating arms as a first step.
                                When I first started meeting strikes with elbows or striking on interception, I had to do a fairrrrr bit of that philly shell game (i.e. crashing in with my shoulder, rolling my forearms or swinging them out to deflect or 'ride' the punch before striking it or the opponent, and a ton of covering and duck-unders) to protect myself. In my head, I thought that eating some shots or covering them was worth getting those one or two or three necessary hits on the arm or hand to make the opponent reassess that tool as a viable answer to the kinetic question of me in the fight. After improving my head and body movement, I could wait out most shots. But MOST beneficial was my in-fighting style; this is also the reason why grappling has always been the most fun and exciting game for me, ever. I am a very very close range style of fighter by preferance, lots of slow twitch muscle dominance and years of training geared toward that natural dispostion to further that imbalance. I do much better when I am close enough to crash into the opponent, "swim" against their arms, or wrap and pass them into clinches, takedowns, or even just openings to hard smack, punch, elbow, headbutt, whatever, than I do keeping distance or staying in the middle ground, waiting to get ripped by a hard body hook or overhang.

                                A good set of drills to try to get better at interception is to work foot and body movements that DON'T require you beating the strike to its destination. Timing* is MORE than being faster. If I move earlier, I might as well be faster than you. Cool, kindergarten over, here's the real next-level key: forget moving first or sooner, unless you're SUPER good at reading people and even then are psychic enough to see a feint coming; rather than move first, ARRIVE first.

                                Example: opponent is throwing a step-in cross after his initial jab, you read the lightness of the jab and see his feet start to change; you don't try to swing at the cross or catch it on an elbow (could though), you step-off at an angle and drive that sweet hook or liver shot deeeeeeep into him as the cross hits the air that used to be occupied by you. You don;t have to beat the timing, or try to get off before he does, just execute the END first. You want to end up with your fist deep in enemy territory, ideally organs and bowels; so rather than cut-off the strike, which requires a lot more practice, get used to cutting off the entire exchange at* the opening.

                                "How does this help me intercept strikes," one asks?

                                By being able to position yourself as the winner of exchanges by intercepting arrivals, intercepting exchanges (between initiation of contact and end) becomes muuuuuuch more comfortable and 'safe' feeling (interception is ALWAYS risky business).

                                First cover well enough to fight period; then learn to cut-off the openent mid-combative-'sentence'; thennnnnn when comfortable enough to stay safe AND stop problems dead, start ending things sooner; THAT'S where strike interception that aims at the strike itself, in my limited experience and opinion, has not only the most value and utility, but also the highest likelihood of being an effective tool, instead of a one-off gimmick the opponent learns and defends from then on, or, worse, a huge mistake when the focus should be on winning the combat by the means you CAN use, rather than a neat skill that may need more training at the moment.

                                Using kung fu for this has been very advantageous in past when encountering heavily loaded-up strikes; for subtle, faster jabs and combinations, what has helped and saved me more than ANYTHING so far has been my stance and structure, no question. SOOOOOOO many boxers and quite a huge number of muay thai exponents need that style of mechanical, muscular "propulsion" movement to engage or disengage; with a solid stance, you don;t need to burst, or plant, or explode; you can deliver and take whatever at all times and all ranges. Once in close, where I like to be in boxing to smother strikes, kill their range power, and start dropping body shots or peeling and pressing their hands for head hooks, my stance and structure are the only things that will let me generate the necessary power, struggle-force to smother, and also integrity to not get pushed away or fold from incoming hits that get through.

                                Just some more random thoughts. SUPER interesting thread pieces so far! Can;t wait to see how this shirt comes out!!!

                                Kristian

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