Cycle of Qi in the 12 Primary Meridians

[ChristinaB]

Well of course there are even many more than that. Just because a conversation is limiting itself to one aspect of Chinese medicine does not indicate that those in discussion are unaware of the many facets of this medicine. As it has been many years since you have practiced perhaps you ought to enjoy the conversation rather than teach.

[yeniseri]

As it has been many years since you have practiced perhaps you ought to enjoy the conversation rather than teach.

Wy would you think otherwise that I am not enjoying the conversation?
This forum, in itself, is a microcosm of the real world. I have been here for this long (!?) and I remain positive of my miute contribution, as the many who have contributed their all positive views.
Yes, other than the level I choose not to go, the forum is indeed a good source of diverse appreciation.

[yeniseri]

Well of course there are even many more than that. Just because a conversation is limiting itself to one aspect of Chinese medicine does not indicate that those in discussion are unaware of the many facets of this medicine. As it has been many years since you have practiced perhaps you ought to enjoy the conversation rather than teach.

I give you an example!
I have no knowledge of where qi is at a given time but i do keep in mind the
variation(s) of zi wu liu zhu that do not fit but is accepted as truth and the end result is the same!

Check on the links, if you choose!

http://www.geneticacupuncture.com/06.SIchannel&jeunumileum.EN.htm

http://www.geneticacupuncture.com/09.Points_Bl-2.EN.htm

My last teacher, Shi Cun Wu, some years ago, authored a set of books for TCM but I learnt mostly qigong and taijiquan from him. He has always exalted students to see(k) further/higher than him and to that end I remain curious and that has taken me a little ways despite my own small ego.
How's that for excitement!
Ganbei

The Lotus does grow where it should!

[ChristinaB]

Ah no problem yeniseri! Last question - is English your second language?

I ask because as a native english speaker your posts often seem off topic or making up an entire topic of their own.

The tone of your posts is easily read as judging what others have said as inferior and appear to claim you have superior knowledge even though none who have posted before you are claiming that their posts are reflective of all chinese medical knowledge. They are generally sticking to one topic and asking fairly specific questions.

And yet as I converse with you I also get a great sense of excitement and you seem to be genuine in your desire to converse and learn on many topics.

I suppose I might often misinterpret what you are trying to bring across and I hope as communication skills improve that will not be the case!

[yeniseri]

Ah no problem yeniseri! Last question - is English your second language?

I ask because as a native english speaker your posts often seem off topic or making up an entire topic of their own.

The tone of your posts is easily read as judging what others have said as inferior and appear to claim you have superior knowledge even though none who have posted before you are claiming that their posts are reflective of all chinese medical knowledge. They are generally sticking to one topic and asking fairly specific questions.

And yet as I converse with you I also get a great sense of excitement and you seem to be genuine in your desire to converse and learn on many topics.

I will say that English is the language that I have a longer association through education and exposure! I wil say that the lineal thinking of English language does lend itself to a 'narrow' way of expression, if not thinking.

I say again that why would you think that you imagine that I judge what others have stated as inferior? Have you looked at all sides before you made such a decision statement? I have been designated the Internet Troll by the GREATER FORUM and you still imagine I am the one who judges othrs statements as inferior!
Regarding enjoyment of this forum, I made a reference to the Lotus and its growth. To me, that is apropos because the Lotus is itself because of and in spite of whatever. Actually I used the Lotus you brought forth for benefit while acknowledging a thing unseen!

HERE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON QI WITHIN THE !@ MERIDIANS
Regarding the topic at hand, I use "zi wu liu zhu" as a guideline in referencing qi in the 12 meridians. Since I have no knowledge of where qi is hence my reference of circadian rhythmicity as a tool that can assist in conjunction with
the usual tools (zi wu liu zhu).

My last link has nothing to do with inferior or other knowledge. That is what I thought I understood as sharing without sharing (My non English side of the brain). Choice is what I believe and this is how I pass on what little I know.

Please show me how I was not coherent so as to correct myself!

p.s. You appear to be stating that the Forum Government on this board have no influence therefore I am the one who is in control and makeing inferences that everybody's contribution is inferior (per what I understand you stated)

What I really think about the cycle of qi in the meridians:
I try to ascertain if qi is stronger in AM or PM so for me there are only 2 options as opposed to 12. I see qi in a differnt way judging by activity/exertion level, body/neck posture/orientation, outward expression and condition (facial expression)!

[ChristinaB]

Ah! I most certainly did not mean to imply that you are judging others as inferior. Only that perhaps I am misinterpreting you do to your style of writing.

When you say “As much as I recognize the various cycles, time of day, disease manifestation, I am as amazed as the subject because there are at least 5 variables or combination thereof of dis-ease conditions improvement. Are they responding to:”

Do you mean you are fascinated by the topic and all the aspects that affect Qi as well as circadian rhythm? Or do you mean you are amazed that we would think the circadian rhythm is all there is? Also can you explain why you change the subject from the simple discussion of circadian rhythm to “disease improvement”. Are you opening a new topic or is that supposed to relate to the previous discussion?

What i am trying to understand is if you make these jumps from one subject to another because you are interested in opening up more topics for conversation or do you intend for your comments to relate directly to what is wrong or “missing” from other posts?

As you should be able to see I am not saying that you are doing either one of these things or even something else, rather that from your posts I continue to find it hard to understand what you want to say. I personally am fascinated by the forum for the reason that it seems so easy to misinterpret electronic communication and I hope to be able to enhance the mental clarity of my own posts.

As for the “internet troll” my desire is to give you the benefit of the doubt and rather than blindly accept that designation I would rather try to understand you as best I can.

I sincerely hope I did not offend by asking if your native language is something other than English. I thought perhaps that would explain my difficulty in understanding what you are trying to get across.

I agree the English language can be limited : )
However, most of the posts I see in this forum are well written, concise, and relatively easy to understand. The quote of you above contains both grammatical errors and unclear points of reference to the topic. It is also unclear whether you are asking a question or giving a statement. I have NO intention of belittling your English - I use this example ONLY to illustrate to you why it can be difficult to understand what you are trying to get across in your post. Hence the mistaken inferences!

[yeniseri]

When you say “As much as I recognize the various cycles, time of day, disease manifestation, I am as amazed as the subject because there are at least 5 variables or combination thereof of dis-ease conditions improvement. Are they responding to:”

Do you mean you are fascinated by the topic and all the aspects that affect Qi as well as circadian rhythm? Or do you mean you are amazed that we would think the circadian rhythm is all there is? Also can you explain why you change the subject from the simple discussion of circadian rhythm to “disease improvement”. Are you opening a new topic or is that supposed to relate to the previous discussion?

What i am trying to understand is if you make these jumps from one subject to another because you are interested in opening up more topics for conversation or do you intend for your comments to relate directly to what is wrong or “missing” from other posts?

However, most of the posts I see in this forum are well written, concise, and relatively easy to understand. The quote of you above contains both grammatical errors and unclear points of reference to the topic. It is also unclear whether you are asking a question or giving a statement. I have NO intention of belittling your English - I use this example ONLY to illustrate to you why it can be difficult to understand what you are trying to get across in your post. Hence the mistaken inferences!

Most of the forum's posts are well written,, somewhat imprecise and hard to understand but that is just as life is so I really have nothing to say on the matter so I say nothing. It is not a problem for me! I am just repeating what you stated but from my own vantage point.

I am not aware of any grammatical errors on my part unless your reference is my use of tense structure. Please show me so I can be more "correct". i.e. correct myself.

I stated, to wit

As much as I recognize the various cycles, time of day, disease manifestation, I am as amazed as the subject because there are at least 5 variables or combination thereof of dis-ease conditions improvement. Are they responding to:
a. Me
b. The healing environment (cleanliness or lack thereof, incense)
c. Yangshenggong/neigong/qigong method
d. Direction facing
e. Touch (manually correcting postures)

I see where I should have said "at" as opposed to as (incorrect as you indicate for a grammatical error) BOLDED as. I should have stated that it makes no difference at the beginning level the cycle of qi in the 12 meridians.
For the purposes of licensure, it is necessary so one needs to know the accepted schedule of such.

Why would one want to know that since it is inmpossible to say/not where qi is at a certain period. We all possess qi!? I took it a step further, which I did not explicitely state, that through asking, observation, pulse and other external visual cues, one plots a plan of action to circumvent the condition! Call it dis-ease, disease, disease improvement, disease amelioration, etc. To me these are minor so instead I linked 2 source to show there are divergent schedules/variations of meridians not often mentioned but people accept based on what they were told. I made no mention of anything. Hopefully people will read and think and ask their own questions.
If someone used zi wu liu zhi principles/concepts (a good guideline, nonethless), wouldn't they want to solve a problem i.e. help in assessment of disease/problem condition and improve said condition/disease. I realize disease by itself is a reminder of allopathic stuff so perhaps chronic dis-ease maybe better as in combining the 2 words! I don't know!

Many people think that they healed the disease (problem causing conditions) but as much as I do use qigong/yangshenggong technology, I would never take the benefit of self aggrandizement (sorry for the spelling) acknowledging that I am the one. I recognize that I am a minor calatyst and stating the variables involved in the process are many so that is why I stated as above so as to add a little food for though in my tiny frame of mind. Perhaps the shift was too overwhelming, I do not know! I am imperfect so please excuse me! I will try to only add what can be handled by the forum.

Mentioning circadian rhythmicity to make a referential correlation to the qi in the 12 meridians was/is simple enough and it was not my intent to make it appear one was better than the other. They can both work off each other.

Indeed the two hour cycle relates to time of day as determined by the sun

though I am not sure what you meant I had an idea so no need for me to worry!
Do you like comedy? Time of night is determined by the moon? nah leaving!

[ChristinaB]

OK! So easy answer - you want to expand the topic.

I agree there are many diagnostic techniques correlated to determine any given Chinese medical diagnosis. As well as many methods used to “treat” or aid in the amelioration of said diagnosis.

The ebb and flow method would certainly be one small technique a physician might use but of course a well versed physician will likely use a great deal more information to make their diagnosis and treatment protocol effective and appropriate.

In fact I would choose a great deal more than five variables to describe what truly happens in the treatment of disease through chinese medicine and for me the use of incense would not be one of them, just as perhaps for you the ebb and flow would not be your choice. (to quote you: “Why would one want to know that since it is inmpossible to say/not where qi is at a certain period.”)

More importantly I would certainly hope individuals read and learn but I would much more prefer that they put what they read into practice and make the true determination of what works for them or doesn’t based on direct experience. Especially if they have the good luck to learn directly from a Master who speaks from such direct experience.

Great conversation, thank you.

Is the topic of taking credit for a patient’s healing a new topic or is that statement directed at something someone has said?

From your tone at the end should I infer you are exasperated by my questions? I would have thought you would appreciate someone trying to understand your posts rather than blindly accepting you as a troll.

[yeniseri]

In fact I would choose a great deal more than five variables to describe what truly happens in the treatment of disease through chinese medicine and for me the use of incense would not be one of them, just as perhaps for you the ebb and flow would not be your choice. (to quote you: “Why would one want to know that since it is inmpossible to say/not where qi is at a certain period.”)

Excellent point! Agreed. I am ignorant on the number of variables in the healing process but I choose 5. My last full time teacher once stated the it is important to recognize 3 hearts, for others it is 6, perhaps 7 but the point is one must have a kind heart, a forgiving heart and a joyful heart. Some have expanded it within the realm but for the 5 variables that I name, it is feasible for you to have 10 variables. It is so small so why waste time!

Why do I use incense? One teacher who died in his late 30's (not sure of his real age) Huang Yucheng use to talk about "Changing The Picture" so I reframed it to changing perspectives.

The following statement prompted me to comment, to wit

.......cycle remains true to GMT as well - so for those of us in the usa who shift our clocks for the "artificial" daylight savings - the actual two hour time slots for energy opening in the 12 channels becomes an hour off during the second half of the year!
I make this statement from direct experience of utilizing open energy points on patients in my clinical practice for the last two years.

I am ignorant on the matter so I choose not to make a statement but to add something for thought. Do I ask my teacher if the 2 hour cycle is GMT, Central Time, Pacific Time or Beijing time? I haven't a clue! Please understand I am not denigrating you!

Is the topic of taking credit for a patient’s healing a new topic or is that statement directed at something someone has said?

From your tone at the end should I infer you are exasperated by my questions?

I am not exasperated by your question but intrigued by them. You have incredible insight and still waters run deep but you choose to venture and probe so you must be very skillful at what you do.

Have you experienced the Dream State as an insightful way to assist in diagnoses? This is ebb and flow per my definition. No need to wait for a dream but as you work and do, the answer will appear but will you recognize it?

If you have a gift for someone and they are not there to receive or accept it, to whom does the gift belong?

[Andrew]

I am really enjoying Christina's insights as well as her clear and concise presentation --- despite yeniseri's "help"

[Molly]

I am also enjoying your insights Christina. I made my original post with near-complete ignorance of the subject matter. After nearly a year of study I can only say I've leveled up to ignorance . The deeper I dig, the more I uncover.

I would like to shift the discussion a bit, if I may. Christina, I'd like to hear your insight about treating people based on the 24 hour cycle. Do you find that certain conditions are easier to treat when the qi has entered that specific meridian according to the cycle?

Also, I have another question to which I've had some difficulty finding an answer. There's a whole chapter in the Yellow Emperor's classic about times of day and year to treat patients. There are statements about acupuncturing less in the winter, more in warm weather, not reducing during the new moon, nor tonifiying during the full moon. Yet, we treat patients year round, regardless of the season or phases of the moon. From my limited understanding it seems that this flies in the face of the original advice given in this book. I guess I'm not so much looking for an answer to this but rather to hear your opinion as an experienced practitioner. Thanks for your input.
Molly

[ChristinaB]

Well I can say that I have been "playing" with a few of these concepts in the clinic over the past two years and it certainly has yielded some interesting results.

About flying in the face of some of these statements - it is true that there is a massive amount of knowledge and understanding in the classics that we know very little about.

The Chinese physicians of the past (like the kungfu practictioners of the past!) were likely so much more skilled than we are that a mistake of not following the patterns of qi, yin and yang movement in nature could likely have yielded very poor results and vice versa.

That being said as a practitioner I have always noticed that sometimes I can perform a given treatment and achieve incredible success and other times have a much lesser result.

Is the treatment not as dynamic as I thought, the situation different for the patient, my energy off? Or was it too much on a full moon or was there more or less Qi in the channels I was using at that particular moment?

These questions led me to explore things like the relative fullness of the moon, open point theories and just what it is that makes a treatment more or less effective. I can say that I am grateful that I have a lifetime to "practice" and figure some of this out as it is not easy!

Obviously the Qi of the practitioner (or lack thereof) as well as the Qi available in the patient are incredibly important. In acupuncture we are essentially dealing with the movement of Qi in the channels in an attempt to balance yin and yang throughout the system.

So what if the energy that is circulating at a given time is strongest in a particular point or channel? Wouldn't it make sense that if you have more to work with your results would be more? I have definitely found this to be true.

However - it is only true if those points or channels are related to their specific condition and make sense in a treatment protocol. When I first began using open points I would just check what was open and if it was a point that was indicated I would add it to my treatment protocol - I DEFINITELY saw a difference in outcome - some were astonishing. Not only that but I consistently get a stronger de qi response from the patient when using the open point - even in patients who typically did not have the sensitivity to feel de qi!

Of course then daylight savings happened or the turn of the chinese new year or the turn of a season and suddenly the open points weren't open exactly when they should be! The suddenly in the spring they were there again?

sidebar
(How do i know if the points are open or not? Lucky for me my long history of pulse diagnosis and more importantly my force training like one finger shooting zen have led my fingertips to be extremely sensitive. I am able to palpate points and determine whether the energy at the points is empty, stagnant or flowing smoothly - usually open points can feel strongly flowing and may have the bubbling, chaotic feel of stagnation as well - it is just much stronger and easier to access than a point that doesn't have this extra burst.)

That being said there are no truly un open points but of course this is a matter of frame of reference not a contradiction to the system.

So how do we figure out the daylight savings issues etc...we just keep palpating and checking the charts and most importantly - paying attention to what the heck is going on in nature around us at that given time!

Open points are generally part of the five antique points and as such relate to the five elements - the entire system stems from the Ebb and flow method which determines spiritual, emotional and physical stems for the year, month, day, hour and seasons (Jia Zi calender system) - meaning it relates directly to the cycles of 5 elements in nature and the macrocosmic effect on the microcosm of the five elemental balance in the human system.

Therefore, paying attention to the natural cycles going on around us is essential for truly developing a means to utilize the macrocosmic energy to influence the microcosm - or in other words, practice awesome acupuncture
If we are aware that a full moon is a time of more Qi flowing in the channels - we should be able to use more points and not drain a patient, however shouldn't we also be able to use less points and get a stronger effect?!

For example the effect of the moon on the physical system magnetically should exert no more influence on the water in a human body than holding a pea with your arm extended out above you because of it's great distance. Yet it moves the oceans and nurses in a psych ward will tell you all the patients get "nuttier" on a full moon, and in hospitals women give birth more frequently - um more qi pushing on "blockages" maybe??

Why don't we practice qigong in a thunderstorm? Should we cancel our patients during Hurricanes here in Florida? Or just use less points to reduce a chaotic effect? Since most people get raging arthritis during these storms and we have to pay bills - i suppose the latter...

This is the awesome aspect of chinese medicine where seemingly contradictory answers can both be true at the same time because it all depends! It depends on the frame of reference, the conditions of both patient and practitioner, the time of year, time of day, style of acupuncture and many many more. Don't be overwhelmed - be grateful - for if you can make a solid argument for what you see, what you want to do and apply your technique with skill and good thought or intent - you are sure to obtain great results! So you can choose this system one day and choose another on a different day and just enjoy your practice!

So I realize this made things wayyy more difficult rather than simpler but that it the beauty of the incredible complexity of chinese medicine. Luckily we are not as powerful as past masters so we are less likely to mess people up by not knowing some of these things ( a little knowledge is a dangerous thing).

However we are lucky enough to practice shaolin kungfu and be learning from a true master. Which means we have a great responsibility to practice with care and diligence but more importantly to not worry, not over-intellectualize (even though it is sooo fun in this situation), and to go with the flow during our treatments..trusting that we can use whatever knowledge we have been taught well and with positive effect. Intent after all still leads our Qi! Your intent is formed by what you know and relatively unaffected by what you don't know. So as you learn practice what you know from experience with confidence, and play with what you know only from studies respectfully until you have a practical experience!

Sadly we don't have a lot of living masters in this system. Van Buren spent his life trying to recreate this system form the classics and clinical practice and he has some living students who still practice variations of this system. Roisin Golding is one of those students and recently wrote a fairly good book on the subject called The Complete Stems and Branches. Most of these teachers are living in England so perhaps some of our kungfu friends over there might get a chance to learn directly and share with us?!

Food for thought - it seems Sifu is able to receive instruction even still from his past masters and even pull incredible gifts of past skills and sets from the ether - perhaps as we progress and follow his teaching some of us will find a way to link to past chinese medical masters and glean some of these skills?!?! Anyone meditate on Hua To much?!

[ChristinaB]

So I realized a couple simple answers might help to stimulate your brain further

When evaluating statements from the classics remember they are written with assumption that you already understand the basics of the theory. The classics aren't basics - they are advanced, which is why they can be confusing.

One example - the full moon

Why would they say not to tonify on the full moon? Because that is a time of fullness, of relative excess to the time of the new moon - excess leads to the potential for stagnation, therefore invigoration is required not tonification.

the new moon is a time of relatively less Qi available, therefore too much movement in a channel could send all the qi right out and create a condition of deficiency. Since we want to balance the qi, yin and yang in the channels that would be bad!

You can go further and say that the full moon will create the most excess in the channels that tend towards excess - specifically the yang ming or tai yang. So what would you think to do with that information?

[yeniseri]

When evaluating statements from the classics remember they are written with assumption that you already understand the basics of the theory. The classics aren't basics - they are advanced, which is why they can be confusing.

One example - the full moon

Why would they say not to tonify on the full moon? Because that is a time of fullness, of relative excess to the time of the new moon - excess leads to the potential for stagnation, therefore invigoration is required not tonification.

I will try to stay on point per previous points
1. In my limited knowledge, the Classic are guidelines of the era, attempting to provide a window for us to use as appropriate. Professionally, they are not "advanced" but serve as a roadmap. They are confusing based on the various translations or assumptions of the translator based on thier own understanding. Another one of my teachers was a calligrapher of some repute and based on what I understood from him, there are characters that despite their usage, they are 'unable' to be understood even by those who are part of the cultural milieu.

2. Based on new moon and full moon, one can still keep them in mind when doing acupuncture but still 'tonify' per the condition.

3. There is a class of qigong where you practice 3-5 days before and after a full moon but type of yangshenggong/qigong does appear to make a difference.
If the subject come in with a vigorous facade, sure, steady, coherent, etc then more basics but less bringing qi through baihui type movements.
If the individual appears frail, unsteady but still able to carry on with normal tasks then full moon practice of lesser duration and frequency will surely benefit the subject (invigoration)

3. It was stated

full moon will create the most excess in the channels that tend towards excess - specifically the yang ming or tai yang. So what would you think to do with that information?

I would not look at the meridians per se (yangming or taiyang but they are surely applicable) but at the external character(istic) of the person as in personality (agitated, quiet, coherent body whole body movement, etc, OR if they report they are more aware of pulses in said meridians or others.

Just commenting and not meant to usurp anyone's superior knowledge or experience!

[Jeffrey Segal]

Excellent posts, Christina!!!

I'm really looking forward to meeting you (and Chris) in Sabah.

It's Saturday morning here, time for me to train and then go to the clinic

Warmest greetings from Melbourne,