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Dao-De-Jing - a brief discourse

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  • Dao-De-Jing - a brief discourse

    Hello Family,

    we lucky to have an online availiable translation of Dao De Jing.
    here: http://www.dao-de-jing.com/
    Maybe we can share some thoughts on the 81 chapters referring to this translation for simply practical reasons
    After discussing each chapter, I will post a new one.

    A long journey starts with one step

    A Dào that you could explain would not be the timeless Dào.

    Concepts which you can conceive are no timeless concepts.

    The beginning of the world is unconceivable, conceivable only as the myriad thing’s origin.

    Therefore: Free of permanent desire, so you behold the internal secret;
    with permanent desire, you behold the outer charm.

    Both aspects result from one and are just named differently, their common origin, however, remains unfathomable:

    unfathomable and even more unfathomable – the Gate to all mysteries.


    What do you think does this mean?

    Let´s have some fun
    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

    Anton Schmick
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

    shaolinwahnamchina.com
    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
    http://kungfu-luebeck.de


  • #2
    Dear Anton,

    Some years back I wrote about the beginning of Dao De Jing; please refer here and here.

    And for Chapter 10, here.

    Thanks,
    Joko
    开心 好运气
    kai xin... .......hao yunqi... - Sifu's speech, April 2005
    open heart... good chi flow... good luck ...
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Have we not opened up thy heart ...? (The Reading, 94:1)
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Be joyful, ..and share your joy with others -(Anand Krishna)

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Antons and Joko,
      I found the post and response interesting.
      I'd be interested to think about the Tao in this thread.
      I personally take chapter one to be a primordial expression of zen. The Tao that is differentiated through understanding and explanation is not the authentic Tao.
      By "beginning of the world," I take them to mean mundane reality arising from ultimate reality through physical worldly existence.
      Then the text links the idea of experiencing Tao through the control and elimination of desire, much like zen tradition.
      I do not know if the term "desire" is properly translated? It sounds almost too buddhist to be accurate and perhaps translators with exposure to buddhism are not picking the right term? I have seen the term desire used in many translations however.
      One simple difference between this verse and buddhism is that rather than describing mundane reality as suffering, however, the text uses the word "charm," implying that differentiated reality is essentially positive.
      And then it gets more interesting... Differentiated and undifferentiated reality arise from a common source. Understanding that is the key

      Comment


      • #4
        A Dào that you could explain would not be the timeless Dào.

        Concepts which you can conceive are no timeless concepts.

        I find this to mean that everything in existence, every who, what, why, where, and when has the Tao at its core. A core that is beyond, and outside of reality, and existence. Thus it cannot be described in concepts originating within existence.
        Shaolin Wahnam USA

        "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

        Comment


        • #5
          A Dào that you could explain would not be the timeless Dào.

          I feel this is demonstrating that the Dao is understood through awareness, not through intellect. The intellect is what categorizes things. As soon as you've categorized something by naming or explaining it, you've narrowed it down and created separation, which is impossible to do with the truth and breadth of the Dao.

          Concepts which you can conceive are no timeless concepts.

          Again, conception is using the intellect to encapsulate something. At that point you have made it material and finite and so not lasting forever. You create a manifestation of the universal truth, which is not the universal truth.

          The beginning of the world is unconceivable, conceivable only as the myriad thing’s origin.

          You can't use the byproduct of the birth of the world, man's intellect, to conceive of the origins of the world. You can only use it to see other byproducts of that creation and know that those things were created through something greater.

          Therefore: Free of permanent desire, so you behold the internal secret;
          with permanent desire, you behold the outer charm.

          If you do not try to grasp and to separate out the truth of existence to gain, you will understand it and benefit from it through awareness. If you try to pick it apart with your intellect, you will only see the surface byproducts of its greater beauty. And by desiring them you can only chase shadows of the true source. Again, the intellect or ego is a product of the force of universal creation and so can't turn around and behold and appreciate the entirety of its essence.

          Both aspects result from one and are just named differently, their common origin, however, remains unfathomable:

          unfathomable and even more unfathomable – the Gate to all mysteries.

          The result of the creation of the universe and the creation and existence of it are from the same source, just labeled differently. But to fathom, or to measure it, is impossible because the tools you would use to measure (that intellect again) are inadequate.

          I'm afraid I have no suggestion for the "Gate to all mysteries". Perhaps I can't even pretend an intellectual response to this. And ironically, the first section of the Dao is describing how we're unable to do what we're trying to do right now!

          Comment


          • #6
            Just yesterday - without having seen this thread - I came upon this widget:





            Have a nice weekend!
            confermezza
            ... alles, alles, alles ist doch auf Liebe aufgebaut ..." (Ellen Auerbach, 1997)

            Comment


            • #7
              Dear Family!

              I am glad, we (or the Dao? if there is a difference ) got the Discussion running again!

              I like Alex´s thoughts! And thanks for restarting the thread!

              Time for Chapter 2!

              When in the world everybody knows
              the beautiful in its effect as beauty –
              then the ugliness, as well;

              when everybody knows
              the good in its effect as goodness –
              then the evil, as well.

              That's why ...
              being and non-being mutually create
              [each other],
              difficult and easy mutually complete
              [each other],
              long and short mutually measure
              [each other],
              high and low mutually lean towards
              [each other],
              sound and voice mutually harmonize
              [with each other],
              before and after mutually follow
              [each other].

              Therefore: wise men stay with
              non-interfering affairs
              they practise the wordless teaching.
              All things unfold there,
              yet not controlled by them!
              They emerge,
              yet don't possess,
              act, yet don't claim,
              their tasks are accomplished,
              yet they won't take any credit
              For only not piling up anything,
              therefore they have nothing to lose.



              Beautiful!

              Look forward for your comments!

              Kind greetings,
              Anton
              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

              Anton Schmick
              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

              shaolinwahnamchina.com
              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

              Comment


              • #8
                I am glad, we (or the Dao? if there is a difference ) got the Discussion running again!

                I like Alex´s thoughts! And thanks for restarting the thread!
                I only helped the Dao along because I thought it said Oct 2011 not 2010. But I guess it doesn't matter how something good happens, does it?

                When in the world everybody knows
                the beautiful in its effect as beauty –
                then the ugliness, as well;

                I would say this is explaining that when the intellect (the thing that believes it "knows") judges the truly beautiful it merely judges its physical byproducts and so creates ugliness as well because then it starts weighing one thing against another instead of excepting everything as it is.

                when everybody knows
                the good in its effect as goodness –
                then the evil, as well.

                Same as above, the intellect wants to mimic true goodness, but can only attempt to duplicate the outward reflections of it, and so creates evil in its attempt to pick apart and differentiate goodness from non goodness.

                That's why ...
                being and non-being mutually create
                [each other],
                difficult and easy mutually complete
                [each other],
                long and short mutually measure
                [each other],
                high and low mutually lean towards
                [each other],
                sound and voice mutually harmonize
                [with each other],
                before and after mutually follow
                [each other].

                Because the intellect is merely a tool to judge and weigh physical experience to translate it to the higher self, anything it "understands" and analyzes becomes separated into dualistic opposites such as being and non-being, long and short, etc, etc.

                Therefore: wise men stay with
                non-interfering affairs
                they practise the wordless teaching.
                All things unfold there,
                yet not controlled by them!
                They emerge,
                yet don't possess,
                act, yet don't claim,
                their tasks are accomplished,
                yet they won't take any credit
                For only not piling up anything,
                therefore they have nothing to lose.

                Being wise is to not give in to the intellect's attempts to change things that it judges as good or bad and the wise then inherently radiate truth that teaches others by being above physical matters. From this connection to the higher Dao, they have and do everything without needing to grasp at it or claim ownership. And because they have attached themselves to nothing in the physical world, they have nothing to fear in loss.

                And thank you Anton, for the opportunity to clarify my own thoughts with this exercise!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would state only that the first line of the Tao Te Ching comprises the entirety of the essence of the teaching.

                  There is the universal spread of undifferentiated energy and there is the phenomenal realm. As soon as we try to explain with the intellect we are within the phenomenal realm and no longer the tao.

                  Simple. The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.

                  Every other chapter is an attempt to describe this same concept with more and more words and therefore less and less direct understanding.

                  The purpose is for you to have a direct experience or understanding of the Tao...at that point nothing else is needed. Just smile form the heart and let your understanding flower in your life : )
                  from the Heart...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlexKreitner View Post
                    I only helped the Dao along because I thought it said Oct 2011 not 2010. But I guess it doesn't matter how something good happens, does it?

                    When in the world everybody knows
                    the beautiful in its effect as beauty –
                    then the ugliness, as well;

                    I would say this is explaining that when the intellect (the thing that believes it "knows") judges the truly beautiful it merely judges its physical byproducts and so creates ugliness as well because then it starts weighing one thing against another instead of excepting everything as it is.

                    when everybody knows
                    the good in its effect as goodness –
                    then the evil, as well.

                    Same as above, the intellect wants to mimic true goodness, but can only attempt to duplicate the outward reflections of it, and so creates evil in its attempt to pick apart and differentiate goodness from non goodness.

                    That's why ...
                    being and non-being mutually create
                    [each other],
                    difficult and easy mutually complete
                    [each other],
                    long and short mutually measure
                    [each other],
                    high and low mutually lean towards
                    [each other],
                    sound and voice mutually harmonize
                    [with each other],
                    before and after mutually follow
                    [each other].

                    Because the intellect is merely a tool to judge and weigh physical experience to translate it to the higher self, anything it "understands" and analyzes becomes separated into dualistic opposites such as being and non-being, long and short, etc, etc.
                    Agree!

                    Yet the opposites create each other!

                    Therefore: wise men stay with
                    non-interfering affairs
                    they practise the wordless teaching.

                    All things unfold there,
                    yet not controlled by them!

                    They emerge,
                    yet don't possess,
                    act, yet don't claim,
                    their tasks are accomplished,
                    yet they won't take any credit

                    For only not piling up anything,
                    therefore they have nothing to lose.


                    The wise do not interfere! The say: It´s not my business! Thereby they practice the wordless teaching (Imagine practicing Lifting the Sky in a crowd of thoughts, without to interfere with the crowd of thoughts, you let them go! They are not my business! This is wise!

                    All things unfold! So beautiful! And everything is accomplished, no need to claim, posses or take a credit.

                    Since they possess nothing, there is nothing the wise can lose.

                    Dao de jing is not very easy to comment on and I am not an expert! But I guess we all can share!
                    Hope to read more comments from you!

                    Kindly, Anton.
                    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                    Anton Schmick
                    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                    shaolinwahnamchina.com
                    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                    http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ChristinaB View Post
                      Simple. The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.

                      Every other chapter is an attempt to describe this same concept with more and more words and therefore less and less direct understanding.

                      The purpose is for you to have a direct experience or understanding of the Tao...at that point nothing else is needed. Just smile form the heart and let your understanding flower in your life : )
                      How True and beautiful at the same time!
                      Thank you very much Christina Si Je!

                      All the books derive from practice. To understand the meaning of concept, the study of theory is not enough. The practice is essential and far more important.

                      Smile from your heart!

                      Yet sometimes one can benefit from the study of the classics, and I believe, now is the time for a new chapter!

                      Let´s have fun with Chapter 3!


                      Not exalting the proficient ones
                      lets people not compete.

                      Not overestimating,
                      goods hard to obtain
                      lets people not steal.

                      Not to be able to see,
                      desirable things
                      lets people's hearts
                      not be confused.

                      Therefore:
                      wise men govern
                      by emptying their desire,
                      filling their needs,
                      weakening their ambitions,
                      strengthening their bones.

                      Constantly they keep people,
                      imperceptibly without desire.

                      They cause the aware people
                      not daring to interfere.

                      Act without interfering
                      thus nothing will be undone!



                      Look forward to read more!

                      Enjoy!
                      Anton
                      Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                      May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                      Anton Schmick
                      Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                      shaolinwahnamchina.com
                      http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                      http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                      http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Merry Christmas dear Family!

                        The Daodejing discussion fell asleep and I´d like to interfere, before everyone drifts away in the Dao without leaving stuff for us mere mortals

                        This is my current understanding of this chapter and may change within the next years. But here is how I feel about it:

                        Originally posted by Anton S. View Post

                        Not exalting the proficient ones
                        lets people not compete.

                        Not overestimating,
                        goods hard to obtain
                        lets people not steal.

                        Not to be able to see,
                        desirable things
                        lets people's hearts
                        not be confused.
                        People´s hearts are not confused when they see no difference between good and bad, beautiful and ugly, desirable and avoidable. Seeing no difference - means here seeing the good within the bad, seeing the ugly within the beauty and the beauty within the ugly. Seeing the change within the things, sensations, emotions..etc.
                        People give up striving and competing and melt with Dao.

                        Originally posted by Anton S. View Post

                        Therefore:
                        wise men govern
                        by emptying their desire,
                        filling their needs,
                        weakening their ambitions,
                        strengthening their bones.
                        The wise men walk their talk and get rid of their desires. Nothing is desirable - they stop the struggle. When desire is gone - the needs are filled. When the needs are filled - ambitions are weakened. The wise strengthen their bones - this is a line that I believe (now) means the wise engage in internal work.

                        Originally posted by Anton S. View Post

                        Constantly they keep people,
                        imperceptibly without desire.

                        They cause the aware people
                        not daring to interfere.

                        Act without interfering
                        thus nothing will be undone!
                        By not causing people to desire - those do not dare to interfere the Way of Dao. Don´t interfere the Way of Dao - and Dao does it - nothing is left undone.

                        In one sentence:
                        Give up desires thus feel satisfied, strengthen your bones and let the work to the Dao

                        Ahh.. breathe out

                        Please comment and share your understanding We are a discussion forum after all and everyone comprehends this from her / his current level.


                        Merry Christmas!
                        Anton
                        Last edited by Anton S.; 24 December 2013, 11:14 AM.
                        Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                        May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                        Anton Schmick
                        Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                        shaolinwahnamchina.com
                        http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                        http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                        http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Meanwhile Chapter 4.
                          huhuhu so much stuff a true Daoist would´t talk about

                          The Dào:
                          “empty”,
                          and yet, in use,
                          otherwise not to fill
                          Abysmal, oh,
                          like all things' ancestor:

                          It blunts their sharpness,
                          untangles their knots,
                          softens their glare,
                          unites itself with their world.

                          Hidden, oh,
                          yet otherwise present.
                          I don't know, whose child it is –
                          seemingly Heaven's prelude.


                          Please share your comprehension!

                          Kindest regards, Anton.
                          Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                          May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                          Anton Schmick
                          Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                          shaolinwahnamchina.com
                          http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                          http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                          http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When I write or explain the texts, I understand them much deeper. This is why I enjoy teaching and sharing stuff that inspires me.
                            So if you also like to deepen your own understanding, please feel free to share here!
                            No one will judge you.
                            We all see things from our karmic view, i.e. level of our training etc.

                            I´ll share what I currently understand from reading this:

                            Originally posted by Anton S. View Post
                            The Dào:
                            “empty”,
                            and yet, in use,
                            otherwise not to fill
                            Abysmal, oh,
                            like all things' ancestor:
                            Dao is transcendental, it cannot be identified, it´s empty. Yet it is full.
                            and It gives rise to all (phenomena)

                            Originally posted by Anton S. View Post
                            It blunts their sharpness,
                            untangles their knots,
                            softens their glare,
                            unites itself with their world.
                            Dao is spread throughout all phenomena and "rounds" them up, it integrates them within one.

                            Originally posted by Anton S. View Post
                            Hidden, oh,
                            yet otherwise present.
                            I don't know, whose child it is –
                            seemingly Heaven's prelude.
                            It´s hidden and present at the same time. Hidden because you can´t point at it. Present because it´s everywhere
                            Lao Tse doesn´t know where the Dao comes from. He claims it´s "seemingly" the work of Heaven!

                            Sidenote: It is foolish to intellectualize about transcendental stuff, because seeming differences of empty and full, hidden and present - are cancelled by logic.

                            But most of you know from experience anyway

                            So time for the next!
                            Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                            May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                            Anton Schmick
                            Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                            shaolinwahnamchina.com
                            http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                            http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                            http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No. 5

                              Heaven and Earth are
                              not kind:

                              thus myriads of creatures
                              are treated like straw and dogs

                              Wise men are not kind either:
                              thus all people
                              are treated like straw and dogs

                              Heaven and Earth: the space between,
                              it's like a bag-pipe!

                              Empty, yet not collapsing,
                              in motion, and even more productive.

                              Many words refer to exhaustion
                              not as good as keeping the center.
                              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                              Anton Schmick
                              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                              shaolinwahnamchina.com
                              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                              Comment

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