"Drunken Boxer's Assorted Blockages - A Study"

[Charles David]

yet people are trying to make me feel bad for trying to increase my martial ability and ability to defend myself.

Can you support this claim with evidence?


Yours,

Chas.

[drunken boxer]

Hi Charles, this is the full quote

On this thread I think at times I have miscommunicated, or people have misunderstood me. Now, maybe I did the same thing in misunderstanding people, but it seemed to me that here we are in a Kungfu ie Martial Arts school yet people are trying to make me feel bad for trying to increase my martial ability and ability to defend myself.

The important words you left out are "it seemed to me that here we are in a Kungfu ie Martial Arts school yet..."

By "it seemed" obviously I meant: That is what I thought. I can't really give evidence of what I thought other than to say what I thought. That is what I thought on first reading of some posts. But not now.
I have also said in the full quote above that it could have been me misunderstanding people - and I think it was.
And also I said "seemed" and not "seems" meaning that this thought was in the past and not now.
I no longer think that is what people meant, indeed conversely since then people have said things like there is nothing wrong with trying to be a powerful fighter.

So in summary, I don't and never did feel bad about trying to increase my martial ability, and I no longer think that people were trying to make me feel bad for it.

[drunken boxer]

Actually two things just came mind.

Charles, you were there one of the times I discussed this issue with Sifu, so maybe you can remember what he said. A clue is there was much laughter around the discussion.

Also, I wanted to say that you are one of the people who has very bravely stepped up to defend our school when we had people criticise and challenge us from outside. You, and the others who did this, inspired me greatly. On those occasions I did feel bad because I am not a good enough fighter to do this, to defend Kungfu and defend our school. I want to become a good fighter for reasons like this so that I can defend myself, my family, my school. I hope I never have to of course, just as I'm sure you would prefer not to have to face challenges from outside.

thanks
Paul

[Charles David]

Better People

Paul Siheng,

Thanks for your kind words. I'm far from being a great fighter, but our practice has improved my courage and righteousness.

Thanks also for your clarification. I'm glad you no longer feel this way. There is absolutely no reason you should feel bad about setting a goal to become a powerful fighter. To repeat an oft-made point: training diligently in our kung fu improves our lives in so many ways, so we don't just become better fighters, we become better people.

No, I don't recall Sifu's response to you that night in the Thai restaurant. Did he tell you to find a pretty librarian?

Yours,

Chas.

[drunken boxer]

Did he tell you to find a pretty librarian?

Ha ha! I read this today just before I got on the plane home for holidays, and it gave me a great laugh, thank you!

Thanks for your kind words. I'm far from being a great fighter, but our practice has improved my courage and righteousness.

Your courage and righteousness is what inspired me.

Thanks also for your clarification. I'm glad you no longer feel this way.

Yes, I thought something initially, now I think I was wrong, and on this issue I'm glad to be wrong.

There is absolutely no reason you should feel bad about setting a goal to become a powerful fighter. To repeat an oft-made point: training diligently in our kung fu improves our lives in so many ways, so we don't just become better fighters, we become better people.

Thank you. Yes Sifu used the words recently formidable but compassionate. This thread has reminders to train both I think. On the plane I was reading The Art Of War, and combined with words from Wuji and James and others I had some illuminating ideas of ways to go deeper with compassion and one of the ways is to give a lot of thought to such ideas discussed to try and avoid fights. Will write more when I have time but now I'm off to enjoy some quality time with my folks.

Thanks again,
Paul

[Shaolinfist]

Oh second thought, I may have poorly explained something. I would never laugh at someone in a condescending manner. I'd laugh inside myself and pay them no mind. Not laughing inside at THEM, but laughing at life. At how good it is to be alive, at how nothing can stop you when you believe in yourself, at the games people play over such trivialities, and at how complicated some people make life, when life is extremely simple.

Smile from the heart.
Think the best thoughts.
Enjoy the flow of life.
Have good aims and objectives.

The rest falls into place.

All the Best,
Alex

It did also occur to me after I posted what I said that it could be interpreted as meaning actually laughing in the persons face, but of course this would be rude and indeed provocative in most situations. If you note my example of when I was provoked in a club this is not how I would act. As Alex said and I actually meant, the laughter is in your heart, is not malicious and manifests outwardly as confidence and a nonchalant smile. Much much better than a deflated self esteem, hurt and anger. My signature says it all really, create your own reality.

[drunken boxer]

Hello again everyone,

As I mentioned in the last post I was thinking a lot about fight avoidance whilst reading my latest copy of the Art Of War. I noticed some tie ins between Sun Tzu's words and some on this thread from James, Wuji and others (so you are keeping good company guys!)

Before I go into that I would like to say that I think this thread has now brought up two further interesting and related topics for discussion, as well as the original topic. The three are:

1. How to handle a slugger (ie the original and main purpose of the thread)

2. Morality of fight avoidance - the area focused on in the latter part of the thread.

3. Fight avoidance mindset.

Topics 2 and 3 to me are different topics if you allow me to explain.

Topic 2 is what I need to think about in terms of the sort of barroom brawl scenario - an area that involves thinking about morality, predicting behaviours in others and myself. It is those percentage of fights I've got in that could be to some extent predicted and avoided, or where a decision could be made to avoid it at some stage. That is the area where Sun Tzu provided some insights for me over the weekend, that I'd like to discuss further.

Topic 3 involves the much more difficult type of situation where a person gets set-upon, attacked or mugged for no reason whilst going about day to day life, like when I got attacked in the park. This issue has been talked around here but no concrete suggestions or techniques have been put forward. I.e. if someone said to me "use the advice on the thread" for this, I could not, I would not know how to.

So on further reflection, I'd like to restate my original belief that the thread should be split, I believe into 3 threads along the lines I've suggested.

Anytime I have asked Sifu a direct question about combat, he has given me a direct answer about combat. To the best of my recollection, he has never talked about the other issues around that first.
For example on the Intensive Taijiquan Course I asked Sifu about handling multiple attacks and he showed me the tactics and techniques to apply to multiple attacks. He didn't ask me to consider how I got in the situation, why was I a fight magnet etc.
Therefore I believe this thread should be kept direct like that.

A very important caveat to that - is that those times I've asked such questions have been on courses. The most important requirement for attending those courses is to follow the 10 Shaolin Laws. I think that Sifu can then presume, for this reason and the fact that he knows me, that I plan to uphold the 10 Shaolin Laws and try to be righteous in applying the lessons taught.
Whereas on this thread perhaps some people have thought that was in doubt, or was not evident from the words, and I have no problem with people raising this issue with me. I have reflected on it and am continuing to do so. I believe the most important words on this whole thread are:

Before you learn how to fight with the Chinese arts, you must exhibit martial morality. Otherwise you cannot be called a Shaolin student.

I believe I do exhibit martial morality. But also believe I am still at risk of getting into fights, and also that I have a joint duty as a Shaolin student of avoiding fights where possible, but being able to handle them where avoidance is not possible. And the first stage in this in my belief is to handle a slugger. But I would also like to continue to explore the other 2 topics as well, believing all 3 could benefit me immensely.

Paul

[drunken boxer]

Ok in regards to Topic 2 I realised some things when reading Sun Tzu. This was the version "Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare" recommended by Anthony S Siheng on another thread.

One major point Sun Tzu emphasises is of course planning. Knowing the enemy situation before battle. Knowing the terrain. Gathering information and planning accordingly. He regards it as a great shame to be ill-informed when there were opportunities to become informed.

It seems with the barroom scenario above, there are opportunities to do this. I know a fair bit about the terrain and the 'enemy' situation in advance.
I already know that it is my choice whether to enter clubs / bars or not. I know that within them it is my choice whether to talk to girls or not. I know that if I do talk to them, there is a chance that an aggressive thug may try to butt in on the conversation. It is my choice to decide what to do if this happens. Not only that but I can make this decision beforehand. I also take responsibility for my choice at each stage of this decision chain.
So as well as being compassionate if a fight breaks out, I can choose to be compassionate in advance, by choosing a pre-planned compassionate response, or indeed by planning to not be there.

Again the question of where to draw the line comes up.
Should I not go to bars/clubs? Should I not talk to girls? Yes there are other means of meeting girls than in bars and clubs. But I find them more difficult. And... its already difficult enough without building in more difficulty! So I think that whilst I should work on other ways of meeting them, in the meantime I should still go to bars and clubs. And I should try to talk to girls. And when someone butts in I should take whatever action is necessary to NOT provoke a fight. Either by walking away or whatever. If the person still wants to come after me and throws the first punch, only then am I right to respond. And even then, I am drilling methods in my training (worked out thanks to this thread before it went off on this tangent) where I defend the punch and respond only with a push or a grip. I can change it to a strike for a different situation.

Your thoughts, including criticisms, are welcome. I am clearly not an expert or decided on the best course of action so your thoughts can help.

[drunken boxer]

Lol, I guess I did indeed ask for that title! Thanks Charles

[AlexBaranosky]

Hi Paul,

I think you should dispell any notion of not going to clubs because they are some kind of hotbeds for evil.

If you could go to clubs before Wahnam training there's no reason you shouldn't be able to go to them after training and get even more out of your experience there. I find chi flow has made me infinitely more relaxed, which is important for dancing

I've been to countless clubs since my time with Wahnam. I used to go dancing twice a week, every week. Not one fight. As Wahnam students we are obliged to spread love, which means spread love on the dance floor Spread love to any would be "Thugs" .

Who are these "thugs" anyway? I wonder where the label comes from? I imagine these beastly dudes barging in and stealing away your precious dance-partner. It's somewhat of an over-the-top caricature. Maybe its an Ireland thing, and different culture over there, but if I was you I'd wonder about this label of "thug" and who are the real people behind it, etc etc. You might find its way too general a term, and could possibly be painting your perceptions of others toward the negative unduly. Don't forget to always think the best thoughts!!!!!

All the Best,
Alex

[drunken boxer]

I also should add that in terms of the 3 topics, topic 1 on the other thread is to me the most urgent. That is the one that will save me if I get trouble today or tomorrow. Because I believe my skills are at the level where I must be most concerned with not getting hurt, rather than not hurting. Meaning that if I were to get into a fight today with a slugger, I would give him somewhere between a 50%-90% chance of winning. Unless I were to strike him first in which case I'd give myself a 95% chance of winning. But I would never strike him first.

What I'm saying is I believe I have done quite well using kungfu to increase my striking power, but not so well in developing the skills to defend this type of attack. At this stage I am much more powerful, ie I hit harder than I did as boxer, but I am not yet as skilful as I was using boxing. If I can become equally skillful with Kungfu, which is my aim, then I believe I will be a formidable fighter and many times better than I was as a boxer.

That is the only thing that has caused me distress lately, this realisation that a slugger has an excellent chance to beat me, and it was what sparked the original thread. That is my main problem and the one that I am working to fix. I feel that I've made a very good start on it since the thread began, and hopefull will enjoy further progress until I reach the level I need.

I hope I never have to face a slugger, and it would be great if through the study of topics 2 and 3 I find ways to always avoid this. But I'd still want to be able to handle one at the very minimum, thats the least any martial artist should be able to do I believe, ie defeat an untrained opponent no matter how big or vicious he is.

[drunken boxer]

I think you should dispell any notion of not going to clubs because they are some kind of hotbeds for evil.

If you could go to clubs before Wahnam training there's no reason you shouldn't be able to go to them after training and get even more out of your experience there. I find chi flow has made me infinitely more relaxed, which is important for dancing

Yes thats what I thought, shouldn't it be even better now! Well perhaps it can be, if I develop the right mindset as has been discussed, backed up with combat ability for emergencies.

I've been to countless clubs since my time with Wahnam. I used to go dancing twice a week, every week. Not one fight. As Wahnam students we are obliged to spread love, which means spread love on the dance floor Spread love to any would be "Thugs" .

Who are these "thugs" anyway? I wonder where the label comes from? I imagine these beastly dudes barging in and stealing away your precious dance-partner. It's somewhat of an over-the-top caricature. Maybe its an Ireland thing, and different culture over there, but if I was you I'd wonder about this label of "thug" and who are the real people behind it, etc etc. You might find its way too general a term, and could possibly be painting your perceptions of others toward the negative unduly. Don't forget to always think the best thoughts!!!!!

I'm not quite talking about dance partners, things probably are different here! When I used to dance more, I really did get in fights then, someone always was convinced that you'd "spilled their pint" "banged in to them" or "banged into their woman" and they weren't always easy to persuade that was not the case / an accident. For my part, in my younger days, long before kungfu, yes I admit I didn't always try too hard to persuade them. usually I did though. I'm fine with that one now, I have no problem apologising and walking away in this situation.

I'm talking about rude people who butt in when I'm talking to a girl, with no thought for the fact I was talking to her first. Usually they pretend they are being friendly but we know what they are really doing, ie me and him know. If I was 6ft 6 musclebound skinhead would they butt in? No. And therefore, they are, by any definition - bullies. What should be done with bullies? Again, where to draw the line?
Being in doubt on this, for now I'm opting for safety first and doing nothing, even though I've read many stories of Masters who did not take too kindly to attempts to bully them or their friends.

[Guest]

Hi Alex,

I think you should dispel any notion of not going to clubs because they are some kind of hotbeds for evil.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, very gently, but very flatly and categorically. My vision of an idyllic society does not include clubs.

Saying their "hotbeds of evil" is a way of exaggerating my point against you, before I've even made it. But the simple fact remains that I know energies when I feel them, I know the energies around me. And the energies in clubs are, unfortunately, appalling. Besides, the music playing often has a syncopated beat, which is destructive to life. If you wish to learn more, you can check out this page: http://www.reversespins.com/music.html

I've been to countless clubs since my time with Wahnam. I used to go dancing twice a week, every week. Not one fight. As Wahnam students we are obliged to spread love, which means spread love on the dance floor Spread love to any would be "Thugs" .

What's the old saying, about where angels may fear to tread? Or the saying about not casting your pearls before swine?

To clarify, I'm not specifically talking about about fighting, or about thugs. It's about how clubs carry very destructive energies, and as such I consider it wise to avoid them.

James

[drunken boxer]

I'm going to take a short break from the forum for a couple of days, as I've been talking a lot recently, and I am going to use all the talking time to focus on learning the sets from Wing Choon, then come back on.

Two points before I go.
I don't agree with James about clubs. I get a bad feeling in some clubs but for me personally its just nerves either because there is trouble in the air (or I imagine there is) which can be scary or because I know I'm going to talk to women which is much much scarier...
Perhaps James is right and has a better sensitivity to bad enery than me, and I'm not being flippant maybe he has, a lot of people do, but I'm going to need more than that to stop going to clubs.

The other one is I may indeed be, or have been, a fight magnet. I'm small, gentle by nature (yes I am!) and was not a very confident person when I was younger and these fights and issues started - which was before I was even a teenager. I got in a lot of fights and I felt vulnerable. But were it not for this then I probably would never have taken up martial arts, starting with boxing and leading to Shaolin Kungfu. I may not be in this position where I am striving to become an excellent fighter using a great art. So I should thank all those 'negative' situations in my life which have led me to this point - because there is nowhere else I'd rather be!

And I'm not saying that this is necessary - other people have had good karma and had a more comfortable path to the same place and thats probably even better! We should both enjoy it.

[AlexBaranosky]

Hi James,

You are generalizing. What is a "club"? There are many kinds of clubs as there are kinds of people. The most important factor is my own energy; my energy is much more important than the energy around me. I'm a Wahnam student, and I allow my spirit to shine wherever I am. So how can some negative energy have any effect on me? Furthermore, with a trained mind, I think only the best thoughts, and find good karma results no matter where I go.

Clubs are where people go to have fun. But you're perspective is focused in the wrong direction such that you see the same physical experience (a club) as a negative thing! Perspective is often more important than reality

All the Best,
Alex

P.S.
"Besides, the music playing often has a syncopated beat, which is destructive to life"
Can't disagree with you any more! Remember your perspective, it can make you see things in a way that is not in your best interest.

Hi Alex,

I'm going to have to disagree with you, very gently, but very flatly and categorically. My vision of an idyllic society does not include clubs.

Saying their "hotbeds of evil" is a way of exaggerating my point against you, before I've even made it. But the simple fact remains that I know energies when I feel them, I know the energies around me. And the energies in clubs are, unfortunately, appalling. Besides, the music playing often has a syncopated beat, which is destructive to life. If you wish to learn more, you can check out this page: http://www.reversespins.com/music.html


What's the old saying, about where angels may fear to tread? Or the saying about not casting your pearls before swine?

To clarify, I'm not specifically talking about about fighting, or about thugs. It's about how clubs carry very destructive energies, and as such I consider it wise to avoid them.

James