"Drunken Boxer's Assorted Blockages - A Study"

[Shaolinfist]

LOL, Phil you need to chance your typong sytsem!

LOL Roland! I am actually not that slow at typing, but I am at work and I had to take 2 or 3 calls while I was in the process of typing the message!

[drunken boxer]

Whoa, this thread was supposed to be about fighting one slugger, not a multiple attack from martial artists!

These have been more great posts, I am working now but will respond in detail later where appropriate.

I do definitely think it would be useful for future reference to split this in to two threads, one about how to handle a slugger, and two about changing mindsets / having the right mindset / "Drunken Boxers Assorted Blockages - A Study"

Just had to step in to inform those who don't know me, that I am not a nasty person. I do not look for fights. Nor am I a negative or sad person. This may have come across in this thread, but I'm sure those who have met me do not think this.

Also though I've been in a few fights, I have never started one, I don't look for trouble and never have, even before I did kungfu.
Also, even before I did kungfu, in fights I just did enough to win, I didn't finish people even though I had chances - for example if the person hit the ground I didn't do what most people of my background do and start kicking them in the head. Even though this is what happened to me when I hit the ground in fights.

This is even more important with Kungfu, I have refused advice off the forum from people who suggested vicious throat attacks etc as a way to defeat a slugger. I think this is disproportionate for an argument about a girl with some drunk guy in a bar.

However - I make no apologies for aiming to be a good fighter and training towards that.

[Andy]

Dear Andy Si-heng,

Thank you for your very kind words. I can’t accept you bowing to anything of me though as there is nothing to bow to . Also, I don’t think my experience and skill is superior to yours Si-heng. Despite difference in experiences, I feel it is useful that students post to air their views and ideas so that their views and ideas can be confirmed or that an alternative perspective is offered.

Dear Martin Sidai,

I didnt mean 'superior' in the egotistic sense of the word. Your points were fairly raised and fairly put. I dont mind errors in my posts being raised by seniors or juniors, students or non-students

Im self-aware enough to know my own strengths and weaknesses and my observation on your skill level was for the benefit of other readers. Kung fu terms are courtesy but seniority is attainment and I can remember from the Tan Tui course your higher level ability despite training for a lesser period of time, ergo:

natural ability + assistant instructor = higher level skills

training vs boxers/kickboxers = greater experience

I was making this clear for other readers as my contributions on this thread should be taken with a large pinch of salt bearing in mind my lack of real experience vs boxers. Its clear from your contributions that you have trained this aspect well.

Some of the generalisations in my earlier posts were in error and Im grateful for my own benefit as well as that of other readers that this has been pointed out.

You are very gracious in your diffusal of praise but my comments in my previous post were meant as a genuine and open-hearted complement.

looking forward to further discussion,

Andy

PS I suppose this situation goes to show that forums arent necessarily a great medium for discussing the infinite intricacies of real life combat situtations!

[Andy]

Dear Paul Sihing,

You are taking this forensic dissection of your mental states very well

Should I just let the thugs have these girls and go and date a librarian?

I happen to know a girl who is beautiful and a librarian. She is also single and looking. It's a shame you dont live in Glasgow or Id introduce you

Best

Andy

[Zhang Wuji]

I am typing this on my mobile device and commuting so excuse my abruptness.

First of all, I think these discussions on mindset have a rightful place here. After all what is the title of this thread? One way of handling a slugger is not beig there when he strikes you, right?

This can take tactical form such as side stepping or not being in the arena in the first place.

I spent 5 days with you, Paul and sparring with you on some of those days. While that does not even begin to make me an expert, I know enough to determine that you are an unassuming nice guy so take my comments in that light.

Your Shaolin brothers are telling you something very important. Don't get on the defensive and miss the concern being shown. As you have learnt take a step back. Before you learn how to fight with the Chinese arts, you must exhibit martial morality. Otherwise you cannot be called a Shaolin student.

In my line of work, I had come across people being killed for all the wrong reasons. In one particularly senseless case, two guys were arguing about the dumbest thing and one of them gave the other a half-assed karate - like kick. The victim fell and broke his neck. It is not about some girl in a bar. It was some matter no one can even recall. And it is naive to think you won't use deadly force on anyone. How if you land a glancing blow, he slips on some beer and hits his head against a sharp edge and dies. Any time you get in a fight yu can kill someone or be killed. Even if you defeat the guy on the ground and walk off, can you be sure he is not going to pull a gun and wax you? That is the real point I am driving at, not just in relation to you but to all practitioners. If you must fight then fight to win. But choose your battles wisely.

[Guest]

BTW I like Zhang Wujis and Captain Kirks Posts very much.

Lol! You're the second person in two days


And to Sifu Roland ... like I said, I'm not interested in that sort of thing

Paul,

First of all, gotta agree with Sifu Wuji here. I was once told, by an experienced fighter, that against multiple opponents he would start breaking elbows, things like that. He said it casually, almost as though that wasn’t a bad thing. I even thought it was 'cool' to be so casual about hurting people. But, later, I found out that broken elbows are considered medical emergencies, because the fractured bones can puncture blood vessels. I'm a compassionate heart, and I'm happy being myself, not trying to be cool 'n' casual breaking people's bones.

You can’t say that fighting is okay because you don’t unnecessarily pound your opponents. Any broken bone can do considerable internal injury. Any broken bone can need to be re-set (painfully, no matter how much anaesthetic they give you). And recovery can take a long time. And it takes up the time of paramedics and the medical services, when you could have avoided all of that by walking away, or resolving the blockage you’re carrying.

Just had to step in to inform those who don't know me, that I am not a nasty person. I do not look for fights. Nor am I a negative or sad person.

You don’t have to be nasty or angry to attract fights.

Also though I've been in a few fights, I have never started one, I don't look for trouble and never have, even before I did kungfu.

It doesn’t matter. If the fights are coming to you, that’s a sign.

Should I just let the thugs have these girls and go and date a librarian?

So you think you’re better than all these thugs? That you have to ‘protect’ these girls from their false choices, from choosing somebody who you think is wrong for them? So you’re doing the same thing as these thugs – out looking for a girl – and you’re doing it to ‘protect’ them from their own mistakes? Or you think you have to stop the thugs from satisfying themselves?

I don’t have to tell you about the flawed logic there, besides the selfishness, pride, and non-forgiveness.

Also, even before I did kungfu, in fights I just did enough to win, I didn't finish people even though I had chances - for example if the person hit the ground I didn't do what most people of my background do and start kicking them in the head.

I have only been in one ‘fight’, if it could be called a fight. Although there was a good chance that this bully was trying to put me in hospital. It was physical intimidation. I think he was so blinded that he didn't even know what he was trying to do to me.

He attacked me. By the grace of God – and God did genuinely protect me during that fight – I escaped without a scratch from this TaeKwonDo bully trying to put me in hospital, even though I did nothing.

I had no desire to hurt him, or even to win. I didn’t even touch him. And, in doing so, I ‘won’. I forgave him and moved on. I didn’t descend to his level or feed him my negative emotions, which is what he really wanted. He just wanted me to become a beast like him.

To defend yourself, saying you don’t ‘finish’ people, is a fallacy. I would respect someone more who said he didn’t finish somebody because he defused the situation, ran away, handled it peacefully, or plain wasn’t there in the first place.

However - I make no apologies for aiming to be a good fighter and training towards that.

You don’t need to apologise to us. But you might need to apologise to yourself, if you are pursuing your training out of a blockage or an impure motive.

[Zhang Wuji]

Sorry, but who is Capt Kirk???

[Martin Do]

Dear Andy Sihing,

Dear Martin Sidai,

I didnt mean 'superior' in the egotistic sense of the word. Your points were fairly raised and fairly put. I dont mind errors in my posts being raised by seniors or juniors, students or non-students

Im self-aware enough to know my own strengths and weaknesses and my observation on your skill level was for the benefit of other readers. Kung fu terms are courtesy but seniority is attainment and I can remember from the Tan Tui course your higher level ability despite training for a lesser period of time, ergo:

natural ability + assistant instructor = higher level skills

training vs boxers/kickboxers = greater experience

I was making this clear for other readers as my contributions on this thread should be taken with a large pinch of salt bearing in mind my lack of real experience vs boxers. Its clear from your contributions that you have trained this aspect well.

Some of the generalisations in my earlier posts were in error and Im grateful for my own benefit as well as that of other readers that this has been pointed out.

You are very gracious in your diffusal of praise but my comments in my previous post were meant as a genuine and open-hearted complement.

looking forward to further discussion,

Andy

PS I suppose this situation goes to show that forums arent necessarily a great medium for discussing the infinite intricacies of real life combat situtations!

. Shaolin Salute with a Smile from my heart and a "virtual" hug to you .

Best wishes

Martin

[Guest]

It took me a Google search to get it first time too ...

My username is 'James T'. Captain Kirk's name is James Tiberius Kirk -- 'James T' Kirk.

Like I said, two times in two days

[drunken boxer]

Well I am now coming to realise how I get into verbal fights at least lol!

Ok, taking a break from work to respond to a few more posts.

Hi Paul

I only have two quick points. First, as I am not a fraction as experienced as you in such actual fights, I will defer to your suggestions as well as the excellent counters from Andy and Martin. But I will also remind you to check out the DVDs of the advanced course last October where Sifu went into many fine points on this area - I just reviewed them over the weekend, and I realised how much I had missed or fogotten.

Hi Wuji
I don't know if you remember but I did really badly on that section of the course! This has been the same with every course and every class, I always find the boxing attacks the most difficult to deal with, more than the Kungfu or when we act Karate, Wrestlers etc.
I actually remember well that you were one of my partners for that and I was really struggling to follow Sifu's advice when defending against you. I think one of the principles that Sifu was teaching that day was one that Nick emphasised last week and I feel I'm starting to get it.

Therefore, whether it comes across or not, I'm a whole lot happier than I was when I started this thread. And even then I'll let you into a secret - although I realised I was dramatically more combat deficient than I thought - I was still happy! The training and chi flow I've been having lately has been so incredibly good. This is why I feel that perhaps these blockages have always been there, its only now that I feel the strength in my training to face them.

I am also concerned at the sheer number of fights you have been in - they seem to be more than those all my friends in the police force on active crime patrol have ever encountered.

I don't think its that many, maybe you are referring to where I said I have to avoid a fight every other week on average?
The actual number of fights I've been in is much less.

You believe that only bars have beautiful girls.

No I don't! Dear Wuji, I think this is my failure to communicate again, this is where I've emphasised one point for the sake of brevity but really I could write a whole other thread on what I think about girls, where the most of them are, which ones I like best etc.

It may surprise you that I hold exactly the opposite view. I believe you have severely limited your choices with this one thought.

No I agree a beautiful girl is a beautiful girl wherever she is, and they are to be found in the street, on trains, in shops and many other places. But they are concentrated in pubs/clubs and have given the signal that they may well be approachable by the virtue of going there and dressing attractively. Whereas I personally feel less inclined to 'hassle' girls who are just going about their day to day business. On this brothers (and sisters!), feel free to share all your tips lol!

I was thinking about your initial posts a while back, and two Shaolin Wahnam instructors in the UK itself came to mind.

Not sure who / what you mean? I can think of a few instructors who have very beautiful girlfriends etc if thats what you mean?

Like I always say, the most beautiful girls in the whole world are Chinese

Preaching to the converted here brother! Though I'd like to do a world tour of Sweden etc to make sure. I have seen many beautiful girls of every race, and I don't just mean superficial beauty but radiant beauty from the heart, a beautiful smile, or just "something about them". Since training our arts, I have come to appreciate the beauty in many more women, I find girls attractive who my friends do not, or who the girl herself does not think so. But yes there are many incredibly beautiful Chinese girls.

[drunken boxer]

and they are, but for a minority of the city girls who are into clubbing, not found in bars.

Agreed, much to my disappointment I hardly every see Chinese girls in UK clubs even though I see many of them near where I work, on the trains, shopping etc.

I am sure you know where i am going with this and who these instructors are

I don't honestly! My guess is you mean certain UK instructors who have beautiful Chinese partners? If so I can think of more than two so I don't know who you mean!

Some of the most beautiful girls I know have never seen the inside of a pub, club or bar. Rather, they frequent bookshops and libraries.

I wouldn't know where to start in this territory! Go up and say "What are you reading?" or something? Serious question - the most serious on the thread maybe! I'm not joking!

Some people are "fight-magnets" They may be plain unlucky, but if trouble keeps looking for them, it is a recurrent problem and therefore there is an identifiable cause. This is different from the masters who may have had to deal with attackers out for their lives. Have you considered if they got into the fights for just and worthy causes, just like Lai Sigung who fought for the street food vendors, rather than for personal trivialities.

Yes brother I agree with all your points in this paragraph.

A couple of questions to ponder: Are fights really unavoidable? Is it ultimately a question of ego and insecurity that I stay to fight? Am I prepared for all the consequences of a fight, just to get my girl and teach the jerk a lesson? What if I kill the smoker scum with a single well-aimed Poisonous Strike? And all for what ? - a girl I picked up in a bar who may well be out of my life next week.

Good points, but let me breakdown the kind of trouble I've got in.

1. A couple of times I've been randomly attacked, in an area where noone knows me, for no reasons. One example is the fight I got in which I've described on the forum where two guys just jumped me in the park one day. In another I was coming out of a shop in a main street in the central part of a UK town ie the bit that is normally the safest. 6 skinheads, a couple armed with poles/pieces of woods set upon me. Remember I'm from Northern Ireland where being assumed to be of the 'wrong' religion or from the 'wrong' area is in many peoples minds a good enough reason to attack. If your friends in the police were in the northern ireland police it is not likely they'd have seen less fights than me.

2. A few times my friends have, for whatever reasons, got in fights, and been losing, and I've stepped in to help.

In 1 and 2 I'm not sure how I could avoid this, without losing out on living my life freely in scenario 1, or without losing or letting down my childhood lifelong friends in scenario 2.

3. The rest are the times when yes, I could have backed down and allowed people to kick sand in my face unchallenged, bully or intimidate me. Yes ego is involved heavily. But when Sigung Lai stuck up for the man being bullied... what if the man himself was being bullied, but had the ability to fight for himself - would he be wrong to do so?
That said, in the bar/club scenario I'm talking about, which probably makes up about 10% of the fights I've been in, yes its about ego. Its the fact that some guy has tried to kick sand in my face (embarassing and infuriating) and in front of a girl in order to win her (multiply the rage by 10 because a girl is there.)
In the heat of the moment I want to teach him a lesson yes. When its gone this far I've forgotten about the girl, because if she is attracted by his bullying behaviour or in my verbal or violent response then I'm no longer interested in her. Its purely between me and the guy and about the disrespect he has shown.
But I agree its not worth killing or even hurting or probably not even fighting the guy for. Though I do wonder where to draw the line on what is the level of intimidation / disrespect / bullying one should take before responding. My current thought is either walk away or deliver a verbal rebuke but only use force if attacked by him first.

[drunken boxer]

Hi James

I think you have a wrong impression of me. Thats ok. You only have my words to go on here as we've never met, and it seems that time and again I fail on this thread to convey my true meaning. Thats my bad.
I would also ask you and others to decide whether you are reading a lot of things into my words that aren't there. Yes you could have incredible third eye perception derived from our arts, but you could also be jumping to conclusions.
Just as I could be a nice guy being misunderstood on here, or I could be a guy with blockages, and ego issues etc that need to be sorted out, which I'm not aware of but that you and others are helping me to see.

One other point, some of the situations I describe in here where in the past before I did kungfu. I've only been in two fights since I started kungfu (only one every three years) once when I was randomly set on in a park (previously discussed) and once to stop my friend getting beaten up. In the second one, I didn't hit anyone, I used a parry and a grip on the attacker to stop him hitting my friend, then let him go.

Though I may be wrong, I'm trying to be honest.

Do you actually want to let go of whatever is causing you to be a 'fight-magnet'?

Yes.

I could have all the martial ability I want. Seriously, I could - I could train kungfu diligently, spar lots, and then test myself against top Wahnam fighters. But I don't want to

Fair enough. I do want to. I want to become a formidable fighter like Sigung Ho, Sigung Lai, Sifu, Tai Siheng Kai, and many others in our school. Of course I probably won't get near that level, but I want to be able to defend myself at least.

At the moment, Paul, I don't know where your heart is. You want to meet beautiful girls. Fine, but are you doing this because of a deeper issue yet? Sometimes the time isn't right for you to get a girl. The fact is, whenever you do, you end up having to fight - at least, that's the impression you're putting across. What's God trying to show you?

No, if I put that impression across then I put the wrong message across.

What are you trying to say with the above quote? That, if you can hit hard, you don't need to worry about your mindset, your heart, your morals, your conscience? There's anger in that quote, Paul - the anger that being able to hit hard is far more useful and valuable to your life than living happily, peacefully, and knowing your God. For me, those things are far, far, far more important.

Yes ok, I can see how this would come across wrongly. Let me flesh it out. By "If you have the right martial ability you don't have to worry about mindset" I meant that if you have supreme combat ability, then even if you get in a fight you can defend yourself successfully without hurting anyone. Furthermore this confidence will radiate I believe and discourage would be attackers, none of who actually want a fight they just want an easy target to beat up.
What I didn't mean, and I could see how you would think this, was that with a lot of martial ability, any mindset is ok. No of course not, with power comes responsibility, its not ok to be immoral, nasty a etc just because you can fight of course not. I meant that you don't need to thinkabout the fight avoidance mindset if you have this radiant combat ability.

Where's your forgiveness?Where's your peace? And why do you mention Taisipak Kai's presence - the one that 'made sure' people didn't fight him? Well, sure it might. Strong Shen comes as a result of our training. But strong Shen doesn't always manifest as an 'aura' that means people don't come near you. I get the feeling you'd like to have that aura - you'd like to have that 'threat' behind you. But why would you want to threaten others? Why do you still have this ego, even after many years of training?

Again I see how you thought this, let me try again. First of all I did not mean to imply that Tai Siheng Kai was intimidating or threatening, not at all. Rather he was radiantly happy, glowing, kind eyes, a big smile. He exuded power, presence, charisma but in a good way.
And no I don't want to be threatening. Perhaps maybe if I'm walking home at night and a few hooligans come across my path I would like to appear powerful and peaceful, exude the fact that I won't start trouble but that I can handle them if they want any. But I wouldn't want to appear threatening per se as 99.99% of the people I meet even when walking home late at night are ordinary decent people.

[drunken boxer]

Hey Paul,
First off: I would like to echo Wuji's comment. Most girls are certainly not found in a club or discotheque.

Those girls who are clubbing, are most of the time just enjoying themselves meaning dancing and enjoying ht relationship with their friends and therefor not so interested in meeting someone. It's just not the place to have fruitful interactions. Or they are out for a one night stand, meaning they dress like making men truely fight for them, feeling and beeing attrackted. then of course you will find many "horney" testosteron pushed male near by. I avoid the analogy to Monkey like behaviour, because basically the Monkey is regarded as an hounorable beeing

So if you are out to get into this situation you gotta take the fact that it's a matter of fact that the more male-like will succed. Either he has a lot of money or he is the strongest.

The other types of girls, which are out to meet a person for a real relationship are not found at such places. U will meet them everywhere else, like in a nice restaurant, taking a girl out for dinner, in a nice bar, in dancing schools, in cooking schools, in the library (yes you will fins them there), at the station, in a museum and so on. then timing and spacing even becomes more important. And the right approach. Often you meet a girl without intention.

Well, as I said elsewhere, on this I am very open to learning! I have only started relationships with girls from two main places, one is bars/clubs and the other is being introduced through friends / workmates etc. To strike up a conversation in a bar or club is one thing that I understand, to strike one up in random locations is something I don't do much, other than with my friends when I was younger just shouting at groups of girls on the street or from our cars. Sounds rough but some of them wanted to be shouted at! Oh yeah I forgot about cars, that was a main avenue back home!
Adapting to more civilised means of meeting them may take me some time... and another thread lol!
All help appreciated.

That said Wuji is right with his statement of Chinese girls, nevertheless Swiss girls and ladies are beautyful as well. You shall find them all over the world and believe me or not, they would like to be found. Ladie's want to be beautyful and they do not want it to keep it for themselves.

Thanks that made me smile!

So, finally out from your post you seem to have a deep rooted blockage, as you feel as well, if you observe yourself closely.

You attrack beeing involved into such situations. Either you have a bad timing and spacing or your mindset ist just magnet like. This is something which can easy be resolved. just clear this mental perverded view and dust out of you.

then nothing against beeing a good fighter. But not to avoid such happenings, but rather to be able to defend yourself in life. This what I mean with a correct righteous mind set. if you train with the aim of not beeing involved into troubles then your mind set is perverded. It implements that you wait for troubles, meaning you ask for troubles. letting go of this will help you. Train the Arts to become life loving, healthy and combat efficient if it's needed. But not to try to avoid bad situations. Actually beeing not involved into troubles is a side effect of your training of a good chiflow, good timing and spacing and most importantly of your heart opening.

I agree with all of that except for:

This is something which can easy be resolved. just clear this mental perverded view and dust out of you.

Dear Siheng, I don't what you mean, I don't know know how to do this or I would have done it, and I cannot see how it could be easy.

[drunken boxer]

We practice our priceless arts not to pick a fight, but to enrich ourselves in every way. Learning Shaolin Kungfu is not a means for us to mask or cover up our insecurities but to come to terms with them and be liberated from them.

I don't want to pick fights, but I see what you mean in terms of developing fighting ability to cover up other things like fear maybe.

And for those lucky enough not only to have attended a Special course but an Advanced course with Sifu, it is worthwhile to bear in mind Sifu's admonition that what we have learnt should be used for good. Right, that is about as big a hint as I can give..

Dear Wuji, I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean, I can only guess, but yes I know that the arts should only be used for good. I do not want to hurt anyone or prove my fighting prowess to anyone. I only want to go about my life being safe and feeling safe.

[drunken boxer]

I can't recall anyone saying it was easy, it's simple, yes, just do it, but it's not at all easy....

That old chestnut... Ok fair point.

possibilitys to think about, some of them have at least partly already been answered, but nontheless;

Possible blockage one: What makes a nice/ beautiful girl?

Possible blockage two: What does one expect from such an evening spent with that girl?

Possible blockage three: What happens when such a bloke appears, what happens to your mind, what happens to your body, what reactions appear?

Possible blockage four: What's so bad about a librarian?

Possible blockage five: Where are the similarities between your fight situations and Sitaigung Ho's or Sitaigung Lai's, where are the differencies?

Ok I'll play:
One: I don't know, eyes, smile, the way she carries herself on first impression. After that then whether she has a good heart.

Two: Fun. Maybe excitement, a knot in the stomach. Maybe even falling in love.

Three: Fear then rage then frustration then fear. As in Fear: "Oh no he might attack me." Rage: "How dare he frighten me, I'll teach him a lesson." Frustration "I can't hit someone just for this, all I can do is defend myself if he hits me." Fear "I'm not skilful enough to defend myself safely."

Four: Nothing wrong with a librarian! Sorry for the stereotype - a programmer should know better!

Five: Depends which of my fight situations you mean, but of course there's where in some cases life threatening encounters with armed dangerous men. Mine were with common thugs. They were able to handle theirs, or they might not live to tell the tale. I was not able to handle all of mine, but live to tale the tale bar a few bruises.