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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mbyte View Post
    I know a lot about strength training. I still think that you all under
    rate strength training. Strength training isen't body building.
    Yes and no. I think that strength training and other physical activities are well enjoyed by Wahnam members, just that it may not form the core of our training regimen. Part of the issue of strength training is the manner, not the content of the training. For instance, running is well discussed on the forum. If you are "training to failure" or pushing your body too hard, that will certainly cause deleterious effects for your chi flow. On the other hand, if you take a measured, gradual progress route, then it will have less impact.
    Similarly, weight training is generally not recommended for kung fu training. This is because some weight training styles involve "traning to failure", exerting your muscles with high weights and low reps to the point that you can't do any more. An alternative is a lower weight higher rep approach. It should but understood however that this a means to build internal force.
    Any kind of training regimen that locks up tension in muscles will have deleterious effects for qigong. But once you get to more advanced levels, I think it's possible to incorporate some kind of weights only after a good foundation of internal force has been built up. To my mind examples include: using dumbells in the art of 30 punches, but only after practicing it for some time; or using heavy weaponry such as the trident for jing training.
    Of course, this is not to imply that every one who jogs or everyone who lifts weights does the "training to failure" approach. At the same time, the prevalence of the "no pain no gain" mentality is also a clue on popular attitudes towards physical exercise. I ride the bus to commute, and one thing I do to pass the time is to look at the faces of joggers. I'd many look like they're in pain, or just completely zombified. Only a few are actually smiling.
    I myself enjoy badminton quite a bit, and realize that it might cause tightness in some areas (rapid bursts of speed). But hey, it's loads of fun!
    Last edited by Chiahua; 11 December 2008, 07:02 PM.

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    • #17
      I didn't realize my post would spark such an interesting and informative discussion!

      I do think that the "Chi Kong" demonstrated in the linked document would cause all kinds of unbalanced -and very focused- tension. Although I've been practicing Chi Kung for a short time, I can see the importance of balance and harmony.
      Every time Sifu speaks about the benefits of Chi Kung, he emphasizes "health and vitality for work and play". If all we do is strength or weight training, some other areas will undoubtedly suffer...

      It's all about the Yin/Yang...

      Here's the Chi KONG master showing the pattern "Carrying the girl while growling"



      Diego

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      • #18
        For strength training swimming is a bit usless. To describe it, it's like a free american infomercial gimmick. It doesn't build strength at all.


        I know a lot about strength training.
        Sorry.... I couldn't resist that one
        Last edited by Adam B; 12 December 2008, 12:16 AM. Reason: Spelling
        Adam Bailey
        Shaolin WahNam USA

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        • #19
          For strength training swimming is a bit usless. To describe it, it's like a free american infomercial gimmick. It doesn't build strength at all.
          Actually, it depends on what kind of muscular strenght is in question. Most people I guess would recognize explosive muscular strenght as "strenght".

          I'm an "old" swimmer myself, with some ten years of active swimming experience in the past.

          You get explosive strenght also from swimming, but not near as much as from say tough weight training, just as you said Mbyte.

          You get a lot of enduring strenght from swimming though, something you do not in for example specialized weight training.

          An example here is a friend of my stepfather, who is a very big and well known strong man in Norway. He lifts some 220kg in bench press I've been told. Once, he was assisting another friend of my stepfather, who is a farmer in throwing bound together balls of hay into a storage silo.

          I do not know the weight of the hayballs, but they were lighter then the weights he usually trains with. After exactly 30 throws the strongman was suddenly almost unable to continue. The farmer had to do the rest himself.

          Turns out the strongman's muscles was so used to work with up to 30 repetitions (his training schedule) that anything past became a chore. Does this mean the farmer, who actually cannot lift some of the strongmans usual training weights is stronger? Apparently yes and no.

          Considering how many strokes one does when swimming for example 1000 meters, being able to do just 30 or so very powerful strokes would suggest someone able to swim 1000 meters without getting tired is stronger then someone managing just 100 meters very intensively.

          So depending on the point of view, you both get and do not get strenght from swimming

          However compared to the several specialized types of muscular strenght training I find internal force much more advanced, and stronger as well.

          Examples are internal force applied explosively through punches, staticly through "unbendable" arms and legs, enduringly through sparring for hours without getting tired, but actually gaining energy.

          And then you have things like for example cosmos palm and offcourse chi kung for health and vitality that just completely leaves mechanical strenght training behind, be it lifting weights or swimming. And training internal force strenghtens every aspect of ones body (and soul), instead of sacrificing energy better spent on for example internal organs and bodily functions to building and maintaining big muscles.


          ...All of this offcourse completely pales compared to a bulging sixpack
          Last edited by Omar; 12 December 2008, 09:19 AM. Reason: Keyboard will not place letters on the page as ordered to by my unfailable fingers
          When one door closes, another one opens.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Adam B View Post
            Sorry.... I couldn't resist that one
            It didn't occour to you that an olympic swimmer uses every possible means of training to contribute to his olympic standard such as strength training.



            Thats the muscle i'm talking about.

            The diffrence basic diffrence between strength training and body building is that body builders do more reps with heavy weight. Basically they train to failure while a strength trainer avoids that. Low weight and high reps untill failure are considered useless by strength trainers because it doesn't build strength. Of course their is the explosive aspect. Strength is meant to be used. Strength just for the sake of strength is useless. Get a skipping rope and a bit of labour and make that stength usefull and explosive. I don't understand why Kung fu isen't about muscle. We have muscles and in kung fu and chi kung their not used. why do we have them then. There has to be a way of using them that is compatible to internal force. Could a kung fu or chi kung practitioner be able to get up an 8 foot wall really fast? I can.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mbyte View Post
              Could a kung fu or chi kung practitioner be able to get up an 8 foot wall really fast? I can.
              I would say yes, practising chi kung and especially Shaolin kungfu gives an abundance of energy. For the interesting stuff, read from question and answer 8
              When one door closes, another one opens.

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              • #22
                I guess a picture isn't worth 1000 words these days

                It didn't occour to you that an olympic swimmer uses every possible means of training to contribute to his olympic standard such as strength training.
                Yes, Mbyte, I'm fully aware that modern olympic athletes also lift weights and do other training.

                You made a very broad sweeping statement about your knowledge of strength training. The point I was making was that while you might be and expert on a specific type of strength (presumably weight training, I'm still not sure), there are many types of strength. By saying that swimming is useless for building strength you made it very obvious that you do not know a lot about strength training as it relates to swimming. That was my point.

                If you're not convinced that swimming can build strength, I'll offer you a chance to test your statement. Practice swimming until you can do Michael Phelp's WARMUP to the workout posted on this link. You can even add an extra 30-45 seconds to the time requirements for the combination 100's and cut the number of reps in half. This shouldn't take you more than 3-6 months of daily practice to be able to do this warmup. If you get to the point where you can do that and still feel that you haven't built any strength, I'll concede to you that it's completely true that swimming doesn't build strength. On the other hand, if you're not willing to put in at least a basic amount of effort, please don't make broad sweeping statements about topics you are unfamiliar with (I swam competitively for 5 years).

                All the best,

                Adam

                P.S. Just because in kung fu we're not focused on the muscles themselves, or to use your term, we're not "about muscle" does not mean they aren't being used. I'm currently in the process of improving my horse stance, and I can gaurantee you that I'm using and building muscles; I'm just not forcusing on them (or at least trying not to ).
                Adam Bailey
                Shaolin WahNam USA

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mbyte View Post
                  There has to be a way of using them that is compatible to internal force. Could a kung fu or chi kung practitioner be able to get up an 8 foot wall really fast? I can.
                  If we didn't use our muscles, I'm sure we'd have difficulty even standing up

                  This topic of musculature and its relation to our kung fu has been discussed fairly extensively--it's one of the recurrent subjects of this forum, and I don't get tired of re-reading some old threads on the subject. In the holiday spirit, here are some posts that I found via search:


                  Weights and qigong

                  Training jing

                  External training
                  Role and value of muscular strength
                  Strength, especially this post: http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpos...7&postcount=36


                  Your approach to strength training, if I understand you correctly Mbyte, is not all that different from how we view strength. One of the crucial differences is that if we are doing strength training there must be the qigong state of mind (mental aspect). Perhaps someone doing some kind of strength conditioning falls into this mental state incidentally, but it may be qualitatively different from qigong. It'd be interesting to read about top level athletes describing being "in the zone", or what some psychologists call "Flow".

                  As far as jumping up walls, in Shaolin Wahnam I think these acrobatic feats are less emphasized. However, in a previous school (Taiji Praying Mantis, which is from Northern China) some of the Sifu's were known for such acrobatic feats.

                  I think we all agree that "amazing abs" may please some ladies, but may not be congruent with our(Shaolin Wahnam's) model of health:


                  Cheers!

                  PS Sihing Adam thanks for posting that website, I was just reading on Tyson's work out. Nuts! In one of those threads I linked to I believe Drunken Boxer said that Tyson never trained with weights.....
                  Last edited by Chiahua; 12 December 2008, 08:01 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Omar View Post
                    Actually, it depends on what kind of muscular strenght is in question. Most people I guess would recognize explosive muscular strenght as "strenght".

                    I'm an "old" swimmer myself, with some ten years of active swimming experience in the past.

                    You get explosive strenght also from swimming, but not near as much as from say tough weight training, just as you said Mbyte.

                    You get a lot of enduring strenght from swimming though, something you do not in for example specialized weight training.

                    An example here is a friend of my stepfather, who is a very big and well known strong man in Norway. He lifts some 220kg in bench press I've been told. Once, he was assisting another friend of my stepfather, who is a farmer in throwing bound together balls of hay into a storage silo.

                    I do not know the weight of the hayballs, but they were lighter then the weights he usually trains with. After exactly 30 throws the strongman was suddenly almost unable to continue. The farmer had to do the rest himself.

                    Turns out the strongman's muscles was so used to work with up to 30 repetitions (his training schedule) that anything past became a chore. Does this mean the farmer, who actually cannot lift some of the strongmans usual training weights is stronger? Apparently yes and no.

                    Considering how many strokes one does when swimming for example 1000 meters, being able to do just 30 or so very powerful strokes would suggest someone able to swim 1000 meters without getting tired is stronger then someone managing just 100 meters very intensively.

                    So depending on the point of view, you both get and do not get strenght from swimming

                    However compared to the several specialized types of muscular strenght training I find internal force much more advanced, and stronger as well.

                    Examples are internal force applied explosively through punches, staticly through "unbendable" arms and legs, enduringly through sparring for hours without getting tired, but actually gaining energy.

                    And then you have things like for example cosmos palm and offcourse chi kung for health and vitality that just completely leaves mechanical strenght training behind, be it lifting weights or swimming. And training internal force strenghtens every aspect of ones body (and soul), instead of sacrificing energy better spent on for example internal organs and bodily functions to building and maintaining big muscles.


                    ...All of this offcourse completely pales compared to a bulging sixpack
                    Hi friend,that part with the haybales was so interesting.I had a conversation with a physio who went to university with a british hammer thrower(olympics 1976) wont name him!!! Anyway to earn money while at uni he went labouring on a building site.Now apparently the man was an animal in the Gym on the weights. A 400lb bench presser if I recall.

                    The morning after the first day of the building site he struggled to get out of bed.The second day he quit.

                    Its like those old Irish navys digging roads ,poweful men,but probably couldnt lift a big weight to save their lives.The body is fascinating!!!

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