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  • #31
    Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
    I remember Sifu Maxime asking Sigung at a Lunch in Switzerland; if Zen and Amitabha Buddhism can be practiced jointly. I do not remember the exact answer but there was a clear yes! within.
    You are absolutely correct Pat, they can be practiced jointly. For example, if you recite whole heartedly the name of Amitabha while focusing with a one pointed mind on an image of a Buddha, then you will be practicing Zen and Pure Land Buddhism!

    On another note

    Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
    In ultimate reality there is no Suffering! Therefore there can not be no suffering.....
    Sufferring does actually exist, just only in the phenominal world, not the transcendental.

    Regards

    Phil
    Last edited by Shaolinfist; 17 February 2010, 12:14 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Shaolinfist View Post
      For example, if you recite whole heartedly the name of Amitabha while focusing with a one pointed mind on an image of a Buddha, then you will be practicing Zen and Pure Land Buddhism!
      I'm not sure I agree that this is Zen practice.

      Developing a one-pointed mind is certainly a necessary step for a Zen practitioner, but Zen meditation aims at an empty mind (e.g. the "Standing Mediation" part of our Chi Kung practice).

      Focusing on the image of a Buddha would be more like Ānāpānasati meditation.

      Sifu Kai Tai Spak once explained that Ānāpānasati is a preparatory step for Vipassanā, which in turn is a preparatory step for Zen.


      Best wishes,
      George / Юра
      Shaolin Wahnam England

      gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by George View Post
        I'm not sure I agree that this is Zen practice.
        The practice of Zazen does actually begin with attaining a one pointed mind. Here is a quote from this Q&A series from Sigung:

        If you are not yet focused as you start your zazen, that is fine too. Sit upright and be totally relaxed, and gently focus your mind on one thought, which may be a mantra, your dan tian, an object in front of you, or an image of Buddha in your mind. When irrelevant thoughts enter your mind, just throw them out without fuss and without question. Once you have attained a one-pointed mind, gently maintain it or let it expand into no mind.
        So the combined Zen/Pure Land practice where you focus on an image of the Buddha to attain a one pointed while reciting the name of Amitabha is an actual Zen practice as far as I'm aware!

        Regards
        Phil

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        • #34
          Zen is "no mind". "One-pointed mind" is not Zen.
          George / Юра
          Shaolin Wahnam England

          gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

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          • #35
            Meditation of One-Pointed Mind

            Taken from Sigung's amazing book, The Complete Book of Shaolin, in reference to meditation of one-pointed mind:

            In Zen Buddhism it is called Tathagata Zen, but generally Zen practitioners use it as a supportive method to tame their mind, after which they progress to Patriarch Zen using the meditation of no mind.
            Not the primary method of Zen cultivation, but Zen nonetheless!

            With regards to the original questions posted by Jimbeaux, Sigung says that

            Zen - Pure Land Double Cultivation practitioners combine both aims - to attain the Pure Land here and now instead of the after-life. This can be interpreted in two ways: their meditation is so advanced that they experience the Western Paradise while in their physical body is still on earth; or they attain nirvana which is also figuratively called, the Pure Land.
            With respect
            Phil

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            • #36
              I still don't understand, what is this Zen you speak of?



              borrowed from brother Adam Kryder
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.

              Comment


              • #37
                I still don't understand, what is this Zen you speak of?
                He he he you cheeky monkey!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Shaolinfist View Post
                  Not the primary method of Zen cultivation, but Zen nonetheless!
                  Nope.

                  One-pointed mind training is a preparatory tool for those who are not ready to practice Zen (i.e. most people, myself included).

                  The trained mind is like a sharp scalpel that is then used to pierce the illusion of reality.

                  This is different to Zen where the aim is to extinguish all thoughts and in that instant achieve Enlightenment. I'm pretty sure, though, that it is a lot easier to extinguish one thought than a thousand, which is a big plus for one pointed mind cultivation.

                  The bottom line is: recitation cultivates and sharpens the mind - that is it's purpose. Zen aims straight at Enlightenment.


                  Best wishes,
                  George / Юра
                  Shaolin Wahnam England

                  gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Loving this debate by the way, thanks to all involved!

                    Originally posted by George View Post
                    The bottom line is: recitation cultivates and sharpens the mind - that is it's purpose.
                    Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree! Recitation in and of itself does not acquire merits or train the mind, it develops compassion and we gain blessings. As was previously stated, there are no merits to be gained from recitation, it is not a path to Enlightenment. It is the focusing of the mind on a single object whilst reciting that sharpens it, and that is Zen, if only at the preliminary stage.

                    I understand what you are saying, that the ultimate goal of Zen is the attainment of no mind, but at the same time even when letting go the mind must be focused.

                    Originally posted by George View Post
                    One-pointed mind training is a preparatory tool for those who are not ready to practice Zen (i.e. most people, myself included).
                    But we practice Zen every day! Letting go is the core of our training, and that is not meditation of one pointed mind.

                    Originally posted by George View Post
                    I'm pretty sure, though, that it is a lot easier to extinguish one thought than a thousand, which is a big plus for one pointed mind cultivation.
                    That I believe is the reason why it is a tool used in Zen training.

                    It seems to me that this is a debate of semantics more than anything. Zen can have meanings on different levels. You are talking of Zen of the highest level, and saying that the Zen I talk of is not Zen! However even though the Zen I talk of is of a lower level, it is still Zen nonetheless and can be used as a tool to achieve Zen of the highest level.

                    Anyway, I'm not going to intellectualize any further at the fear of someone jumping in and saying that Zen is a brick!

                    With Shaolin Salute,

                    Phil

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Shaolinfist View Post
                      He he he you cheeky monkey!

                      ssssssssssssssstTHONG!! - You just got hit on your head by your Zen masters stick.......

                      Repetition:

                      I still don't understand, what is this Zen you speak of?

                      sincerely
                      Pat
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Ouch!

                        **Rubs his newly found Zen awakening!**



                        LOL!

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                        • #42
                          Dear Phil,
                          how are you after your awakening?

                          actually post nr. 36 and nr. 40 were never ment to be a joke in any way, they were ment to be funny, yes, but not a joke.
                          The first, as far as I remember is not even grown in Adams garden it was first said by a famous Zen master, but I can't remember which one at the time, and I still cant recal the name of the master which would have beaten you for your reply unless it came from a sudden deep understanding and therefore seeing your own ridiculousness.

                          What I wanted to say is that your discussion with George was following a path that would lead to more or less senseless arguing about whether that daffodill over there is blue or red......

                          In fact you were talking at crossed purposes; What you were talking about was different practices, practices that could or could not be used by a Zen practitioner. They may for better understanding sometimes be called soandso-Zen. Now what George was talking about was a state, and Zen is a discription of a state, the state of "empty mind" or "non" or "." or just " "

                          The practices that you might use to reach this state may vary vastly. For instance you can reach Zen through washing your bowl (Thank you Jimbeaux) or by choping wood, carrying water, that would then be caled Washing bowl Zen, but the practice as such is, as a matter of fact, not Zen.

                          Yours
                          Pat

                          PS for better understanding Follow the sign below....
                          Last edited by Kingmonkey; 18 February 2010, 11:24 AM.
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
                            Dear Phil,
                            how are you after your awakening?
                            Painfully aware!!

                            Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
                            actually post nr. 36 and nr. 40 were never ment to be a joke in any way, they were ment to be funny, yes, but not a joke.
                            That is exactly as I took them.

                            Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
                            What I wanted to say is that your discussion with George was following a path that would lead to more or less senseless arguing about whether that daffodill over there is blue or red.......
                            I must say that I feel like it was a debate rather than an argument, and I love a good debate! Although obviously it is not good to over intellectualize, a good debate actually deepens your understanding.

                            Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
                            PS for better understanding Follow the sign below....
                            Very nice!

                            Regards

                            Phil

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Kingmonkey View Post
                              you were talking at crossed purposes
                              I'd ditto that.

                              It's like like practicing throwing and catching a ball with a friend.
                              It's definitely not baseball, but it's preparing/practicing for baseball. So, in a sense, it also IS part of baseball.

                              But that said don't forget that all teachings are one in the same.
                              But of course, they also are not!

                              Sigung: This is a great exercise for women, because it makes them beautiful and radiant.
                              Student: And what does it do for men?
                              Sigung: It makes women beautiful!
                              Smile from the heart!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jimbeaux View Post
                                It's like like practicing throwing and catching a ball with a friend. It's definitely not baseball
                                It depends on the circumstances, as throwing a ball to eachother is most certainly a part of baseball!

                                With metta

                                Phil

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