If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Welcome to the Shaolin Wahnam Institute Virtual Kwoon and Discussion Forum.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.
When considering joining our community, please read our Forum Rules and FAQ. Please also note that this forum, although open to the public, is actually a virtual extension of the Shaolin Wahnam Kwoon (Martial Arts School). Upon "entering" the school, we do expect our guests and members to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner at all times.
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Please follow this link to find out what a Virtual Kwoon is.
I remember Sifu Maxime asking Sigung at a Lunch in Switzerland; if Zen and Amitabha Buddhism can be practiced jointly. I do not remember the exact answer but there was a clear yes! within.
You are absolutely correct Pat, they can be practiced jointly. For example, if you recite whole heartedly the name of Amitabha while focusing with a one pointed mind on an image of a Buddha, then you will be practicing Zen and Pure Land Buddhism!
For example, if you recite whole heartedly the name of Amitabha while focusing with a one pointed mind on an image of a Buddha, then you will be practicing Zen and Pure Land Buddhism!
I'm not sure I agree that this is Zen practice.
Developing a one-pointed mind is certainly a necessary step for a Zen practitioner, but Zen meditation aims at an empty mind (e.g. the "Standing Mediation" part of our Chi Kung practice).
Focusing on the image of a Buddha would be more like Ānāpānasati meditation.
Sifu Kai Tai Spak once explained that Ānāpānasati is a preparatory step for Vipassanā, which in turn is a preparatory step for Zen.
The practice of Zazen does actually begin with attaining a one pointed mind. Here is a quote from this Q&A series from Sigung:
If you are not yet focused as you start your zazen, that is fine too. Sit upright and be totally relaxed, and gently focus your mind on one thought, which may be a mantra, your dan tian, an object in front of you, or an image of Buddha in your mind. When irrelevant thoughts enter your mind, just throw them out without fuss and without question. Once you have attained a one-pointed mind, gently maintain it or let it expand into no mind.
So the combined Zen/Pure Land practice where you focus on an image of the Buddha to attain a one pointed while reciting the name of Amitabha is an actual Zen practice as far as I'm aware!
Taken from Sigung's amazing book, The Complete Book of Shaolin, in reference to meditation of one-pointed mind:
In Zen Buddhism it is called Tathagata Zen, but generally Zen practitioners use it as a supportive method to tame their mind, after which they progress to Patriarch Zen using the meditation of no mind.
Not the primary method of Zen cultivation, but Zen nonetheless!
With regards to the original questions posted by Jimbeaux, Sigung says that
Zen - Pure Land Double Cultivation practitioners combine both aims - to attain the Pure Land here and now instead of the after-life. This can be interpreted in two ways: their meditation is so advanced that they experience the Western Paradise while in their physical body is still on earth; or they attain nirvana which is also figuratively called, the Pure Land.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.
Not the primary method of Zen cultivation, but Zen nonetheless!
Nope.
One-pointed mind training is a preparatory tool for those who are not ready to practice Zen (i.e. most people, myself included).
The trained mind is like a sharp scalpel that is then used to pierce the illusion of reality.
This is different to Zen where the aim is to extinguish all thoughts and in that instant achieve Enlightenment. I'm pretty sure, though, that it is a lot easier to extinguish one thought than a thousand, which is a big plus for one pointed mind cultivation.
The bottom line is: recitation cultivates and sharpens the mind - that is it's purpose. Zen aims straight at Enlightenment.
The bottom line is: recitation cultivates and sharpens the mind - that is it's purpose.
Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree! Recitation in and of itself does not acquire merits or train the mind, it develops compassion and we gain blessings. As was previously stated, there are no merits to be gained from recitation, it is not a path to Enlightenment. It is the focusing of the mind on a single object whilst reciting that sharpens it, and that is Zen, if only at the preliminary stage.
I understand what you are saying, that the ultimate goal of Zen is the attainment of no mind, but at the same time even when letting go the mind must be focused.
I'm pretty sure, though, that it is a lot easier to extinguish one thought than a thousand, which is a big plus for one pointed mind cultivation.
That I believe is the reason why it is a tool used in Zen training.
It seems to me that this is a debate of semantics more than anything. Zen can have meanings on different levels. You are talking of Zen of the highest level, and saying that the Zen I talk of is not Zen! However even though the Zen I talk of is of a lower level, it is still Zen nonetheless and can be used as a tool to achieve Zen of the highest level.
Anyway, I'm not going to intellectualize any further at the fear of someone jumping in and saying that Zen is a brick!
ssssssssssssssstTHONG!! - You just got hit on your head by your Zen masters stick.......
Repetition:
I still don't understand, what is this Zen you speak of?
sincerely
Pat
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.
actually post nr. 36 and nr. 40 were never ment to be a joke in any way, they were ment to be funny, yes, but not a joke.
The first, as far as I remember is not even grown in Adams garden it was first said by a famous Zen master, but I can't remember which one at the time, and I still cant recal the name of the master which would have beaten you for your reply unless it came from a sudden deep understanding and therefore seeing your own ridiculousness.
What I wanted to say is that your discussion with George was following a path that would lead to more or less senseless arguing about whether that daffodill over there is blue or red......
In fact you were talking at crossed purposes; What you were talking about was different practices, practices that could or could not be used by a Zen practitioner. They may for better understanding sometimes be called soandso-Zen. Now what George was talking about was a state, and Zen is a discription of a state, the state of "empty mind" or "non" or "." or just " "
The practices that you might use to reach this state may vary vastly. For instance you can reach Zen through washing your bowl (Thank you Jimbeaux) or by choping wood, carrying water, that would then be caled Washing bowl Zen, but the practice as such is, as a matter of fact, not Zen.
Yours
Pat
PS for better understanding Follow the sign below....
Last edited by Kingmonkey; 18 February 2010, 11:24 AM.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.
What I wanted to say is that your discussion with George was following a path that would lead to more or less senseless arguing about whether that daffodill over there is blue or red.......
I must say that I feel like it was a debate rather than an argument, and I love a good debate! Although obviously it is not good to over intellectualize, a good debate actually deepens your understanding.
It's like like practicing throwing and catching a ball with a friend.
It's definitely not baseball, but it's preparing/practicing for baseball. So, in a sense, it also IS part of baseball.
But that said don't forget that all teachings are one in the same.
But of course, they also are not!
Sigung: This is a great exercise for women, because it makes them beautiful and radiant. Student: And what does it do for men? Sigung: It makes women beautiful! Smile from the heart!
We process personal data about users of our site, through the use of cookies and other technologies, to deliver our services, personalize advertising, and to analyze site activity. We may share certain information about our users with our advertising and analytics partners. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. You also acknowledge that this forum may be hosted outside your country and you consent to the collection, storage, and processing of your data in the country where this forum is hosted.
Comment