Happiness in Amitabha's Pure Land

[Kingmonkey]

*laugh out loud!*
I knew there was something wrong with that one, but I just couldn't think of the right one....
But if you and hopefuly many others have some fun, then it had some deeper sense anyway...
Pat

[George]

Hi Benedikt,

If you are free of suffering when you are reborn in sukhavati, aren't you enlitened at the sime time you are reborn there?

No, if you were Enlightened then you would not be reborn in the Western Paradise. Nor would you be free of suffering simply by being born in the Western Paradise.

In ultimate reality, the Twelve Nidanas do not apply: thus, there is no ignorance, activity, consciousness, or modality, no senses, contact, perception, or desire, no attachment, becoming, birth, or age-death, and no ending of any of these.

http://www.flowingzen.com/heartsutra.htm

Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Benedikt]

To quote George:
Nor would you be free of suffering simply by being born in the Western Paradise. (Sorry I dont know how to quote)

In Sigungs book about Sukhavati there is a line where Sigung says:

"Sukhavati, the Western Paradise of Eternal Bliss Is free from all suffering."

The Amitabha Sutra says:
"Sariputra, why is this world called Sukhavati or Eternal Bliss? It is because the inhabitants of this world not only have no suffering, but also boundless bliss. Thus, it is named Sukhavati or Eternal Bliss."

For me enlitenment meant: Free yourself from suffering. But I can be wrong and no suffering is "just" a side effect of enlitenment. That is why I questioned.

After reading the Amitabha Sutra again I have to say Sukhavati must be a real nice place.

Greetings

[George]

That's a good point - it's been a while since I read that. I guess that means you can be free from suffering in Western Paradise.

You're definitely not Enlightened just by being born there though - you're just placed in the perfect conditions to reach Enlightenment.

[George]

For me enlitenment meant: Free yourself from suffering. But I can be wrong and no suffering is "just" a side effect of enlitenment. That is why I questioned.

Freeing yourself from suffering is still dualistic thinking. There is no suffering. That said, experiential understanding of this is not as easy as intellectual understanding...

After reading the Amitabha Sutra again I have to say Sukhavati must be a real nice place.

Agreed!

[Shaolinfist]

I think the bottom line is, to be Enlightened is to be free from suffering, but to be free from suffering does not mean you are Enlightened!

But I can be wrong and no suffering is "just" a side effect of enlitenment

To be Enlightened is to transcend the phenomenal realm, and as suffering is an aspect of the phenomenal world, so Enlightenment frees you from it.
But there is also this one special place within the phenomenal realm where suffering does not exist, Sukhavati!

Peace
Phil

[Kingmonkey]

Freeing yourself from suffering is still dualistic thinking. There is no suffering.

Very Important point! Thank you George Siheng.

I think the bottom line is, to be Enlightened is to be free from suffering,

No!

but to be free from suffering does not mean you are Enlightened!

Yes!

In ultimate reality there is no Suffering! Therefore there can not be no suffering.....

If there is suffering there also is no suffering, and vice versa, that's dualism.
To become enlightened means to overcome dualism in every imaginable way.
If there is light, there also has to be dark, without dark, light will not be light anymore. if there is good, there also has to be bad, without bad good will not be good, it will simply cease to exist.

Imagine: The rain forests that are widely cleared are considered bad by a lot of people. clearing them may be bad for us and for certain animals and plants, but on the other hand they may be considered good for different animals, insects, plants and bacteria. To the universal reality it just doesn't make any difference, The universal laws don't care for humans, rain forests etc. If one disappears, an other will appear, it's all just a changing of the shape of the existing energy.

One has to accept bad in the same way one accepts good and then one will rescind the other, this will be non-dualism.

But to do this intellectually will not work, you have to experience it and become non-dualistic.....

yours Pat

[Jimbeaux]

To be enlightened is freedom from bliss.

(To this Pat will soon reply: No!)

Perhaps he can't deny this:
To be enlightened is to wash your bowl.

Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Jimbeaux]

Just thought of some food for thought:

First question:
Sigung says in "The Complete Book of Zen" that saying the name of Amitabha gains an individual no merit for enlightenment, and that the practice is for deluded people who do not understand prajna (pp. 112-113). So why should we bother doing it??

Second question:
On page 8 of Sukhavati, Sigung writes that to be reborn there, we have to: (1) Have faith that that there is a Western Paradise of Eternal Bliss; (2) Make a vow that you want to be reborn there; (3) Cultivate the practice that accomplishes your vow. How can we make a vow that we want to be reborn in Sukhavati if our primary desire is to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime and thus have no need to be reborn in Sukhavati?

These are two questions that came up for me in reading those books (I'm reading both at the same time, and I'm not finished with either). I have my own ideas, but I'd love to hear what others think.

Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Benedikt]

First question:
You can attain a one pointed mind.
You show respect to Amitabha Buddha. Namo means: pay homage and take guidance from...
By repeating his name you can inspire other beings to take guidance from Amitabha Buddha.

Second question:
If you cannot achive enlitenment this lifetime you have a place to go with a lot of good conditions to become enlitened.

You can make your vow like that:
I vow to be reborn in the western paradise if I'm not perfectly enlightened this very lifetime.
Of corse your vow should be more respectful, not just a sloppy sentence. Just speak with your heart. Mine was just an example to show what I mean.

[Shaolinfist]

First question:
Sigung says in "The Complete Book of Zen" that saying the name of Amitabha gains an individual no merit for enlightenment, and that the practice is for deluded people who do not understand prajna (pp. 112-113). So why should we bother doing it??

This is because for many people, it is too difficult to become Enlightened here and now, as most are not spiritually ready. It will take them many many lifetimes of suffering and cultivation to achieve Perfect Enlightenment. However out of his boundless compassion Amitabha vowed not to become Enlightened unless he could create Sukhavati, where beings could be reborn and cultivate without suffering until they reached Perfect Enlightenment! Namo Amitabha!
So technically, reciting the name of Amitabha does not gain one merits as it is different from spiritual cultivation, although there are methods of recitation that incorporate spiritual cultivation too.

Second question:
How can we make a vow that we want to be reborn in Sukhavati if our primary desire is to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime and thus have no need to be reborn in Sukhavati?

Because we understand and accept our weakness as human beings, and how difficult it is to achieve Perfect Enlightenment, although we may strive to achieve it. Also because we accept with open hearts the wonderful gift that Sakyamuni gave to us when he taught us about this Pure Land, of which otherwise we would have no way of knowing! It truly is a wonderful thing...

Namo Amitabha!
Namo Sakyamuni!

Phil

[Kingmonkey]

To be enlightened is freedom from bliss.

(To this Pat will soon reply: No!)

Yes ....
... but no, not because of what you may have thought of...
I just would prefer peace instead of freedom, because it's perfect inner peace that will bring you freedom and not freedom that will bring you perfect inner peace. In our present world so many people are running around searching for freedom instead of standing still for a moment and gather some inner peace.....


Question one:
Reciting Amitabhas name, if done sincerely, can help you be reborn in Sukhavati, which is still in the phenomenal realm. There you will find perfect circumstances to practice until you'll find enlightenment. Gaining merit through the practice of prajna and dhyana will lead to enlightenment when you have purified your mind and have overcome the dualism of the phenomenal world.
Not everyone is ready to realize the profundity of prajna and dhyana and therefore it is better for them to recite the Buddha Amithabas name and be reborn in Sukhavati by cultivating blessings.

Question two:
Are you completely assured that you will attain enlightenment in this life?

In my own personal opinion Zen as such is just a practise or a philosophy only when it comes together with a religion or spiritual system it becomes whole. I'm not quite sure if Zen Buddhism without Buddhism will work.
I do think that you can be a Christian or Muslim or any other true spiritual system and practice Zen but if you practice Zen without any spirituality I guess it will either lead you to nowhere or to spirituality. This assumption I take from my own experiences.
Why should this spiritual system going along with our Zen practice not be Amitabha Buddhism......

I remember Sifu Maxime asking Sigung at a Lunch in Switzerland; if Zen and Amitabha Buddhism can be practiced jointly. I do not remember the exact answer but there was a clear yes! within.

How can we make a vow that we want to be reborn in Sukhavati if our primary desire is to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime and thus have no need to be reborn in Sukhavati?

1. Suffering's Origin (Dukkha Samudaya):
   "This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."

Yours
Pat

PS: Nice Post Phil, I didn't see it before posting mine, very nice

[Kingmonkey]

I just found this and thought it might be of interest.....

To me this really sounds very reasonable

[Shaolinfist]

Also because we accept with open hearts the wonderful gift that Sakyamuni gave to us when he taught us about this Pure Land, of which otherwise we would have no way of knowing! It truly is a wonderful thing...

I would also like to extend my deep gratitude to Sigung for sharing this truly amazing gift with us, you have changed my life forever and there is no way I could ever repay you for your kindness and generosity.

Thank you Sigung, from the bottom of my heart....

Phil

[Jimbeaux]

Thank you to those who responded to my questions. You have not confirmed my own answers to the questions, you have taken them further.

I never thought I'd become Buddhist, but nothing happens on accident.

I will do my best to adhere to the last lines of the Platform Sutra:

Do not waste your time by not cultivating this teaching.

I love those words. They can apply any of the Shaolin arts, or to anything at all.