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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bailu View Post
    If the body is not open, then whether you only look on taijiquan as physical or not is irrelevant.
    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. I'm reading it as, "if the body lacks the flexibility and strength to perform the Taiji forms, then there is no point in discussing combat application because the person can't be doing Taiji."

    But since we're discussing doing the forms normal and mirrored, I think we have to assume the physical ability to do them. So, perhaps I've got you wrong.

    In an earlier post, you spoke of imbalance from doing movements in a "one-sided" manner. I countered by saying that even if you just focus on the physical movements, they are mostly balanced even if staying with the "one-sided" forms.

    From what I've learned and experienced with chi kung, the chi flow and internal force would easily clear up any imbalances or blockages caused by doing only a "one-sided" set. However, if you're focusing so much on the physical aspect of the forms and experience enough strain to compare it to doing thousands of push-ups, and have little to no chi flow/internal force, then perhaps the damage of the "imbalance" would be great, but certainly not because you were doing it in a one-sided manner.

    -Matt

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    • #17
      Ok, we'll look at this another way..
      If you only practice shooting basketball hoops in the right hand, you won't have equal skill in the left.


      The same with taijiquan -
      As it is first and foremost a martial art, combat efficiency is its aim. It is not efficient to only practice one sided, as some movements are only practiced to one side:

      Grasping Sparrows Tail
      Single Whip
      Deflect, Parry & Punch
      Fan Through Back
      Swing Punch

      These are just a few movements.
      Being able to perform the forms on the right side, does not mean you'll be able to use them on either side, regardless of "qi flow".

      The best way to find out what I mean is to try it.
      Practice your taijiquan form slowly to the "normal" side, and then afterwards practice in the opposite direction, and feel how you lose the internal connection, how your movements feel broken and weak.

      Give it a try.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bailu View Post
        Ok, we'll look at this another way..
        If you only practice shooting basketball hoops in the right hand, you won't have equal skill in the left.


        The same with taijiquan -
        As it is first and foremost a martial art, combat efficiency is its aim. It is not efficient to only practice one sided, as some movements are only practiced to one side:
        And in basketball, scoring points efficiently is the goal. That is why they always shoot from the floor with the dominant hand. As with a boxer, the skill is most important, not how many techniques.

        I would say when combat efficiency is the aim, why would you waste your time practicing both sides to get them to a certain level, when you could practice one side and bring it to twice the level.

        Soldiers don't train to shoot a gun from both shoulders. Drivers don't train to drive both right and left hand-drive vehicles. Students don't train to write with both hands. Baseball players always swing the bat from the same side. When it comes down to needing a skill to work for you, the one that is practiced the most works.

        Yes, I'm sure there are situations when having the same skill on the opposite side would be a benefit, but having a higher level of skill on one side only will nearly always trump a double-sided, lower skill level.

        -Matt

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        • #19
          Originally posted by drop360 View Post
          When it comes down to needing a skill to work for you, the one that is practiced the most works.
          And if you are attacked from a different angle than you are used to?
          If your opponent comes from your left instead of right?

          Yes, I'm sure there are situations when having the same skill on the opposite side would be a benefit, but having a higher level of skill on one side only will nearly always trump a double-sided, lower skill level.

          -Matt
          I would argue that only having skill on one side is not having a whole skill at all, no matter how skilled you are.

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          • #20
            Interesting discussion indeed.
            Originally posted by Bailu View Post
            And if you are attacked from a different angle than you are used to?
            Then you have trained incompletely. This has nothing to do with whether or not you train all skills on both sides explicitly. This is about learning to work with the skills you have and developing them to a level where the attacks used can be handled using them regardless of the direction, hand form, body part or stance (or lack thereof).

            I can't imagine an angle or direction which is not covered in our basic levels of training.
            Sifu Andrew Barnett
            Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

            Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
            Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
            Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Andrew View Post
              Interesting discussion indeed.

              Then you have trained incompletely. This has nothing to do with whether or not you train all skills on both sides explicitly. This is about learning to work with the skills you have and developing them to a level where the attacks used can be handled using them regardless of the direction, hand form, body part or stance (or lack thereof).

              I can't imagine an angle or direction which is not covered in our basic levels of training.
              Perhaps we may have to agree to disagree.
              If you're training works for you, I'm happy for you. However, I will continue to practice both sides

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              • #22
                Great thread

                Great thread, thanks to PM for resurrecting it and Bailu for keeping it going.

                Like my Wahnam brother Alex (apologies I don't know the correct term of respect), I originally assumed the answer would be a definitive "train both sides equally" but clearly, like everything else in life, things are not always "black and white".

                Thankfully as students we don't need to worry about such things, we should train as our Sifus instruct us...anything else would be foolish.

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                • #23
                  Hello everyone and especially Bailu

                  I was struggling with this question years ago and I can't believe I never knew about this thread.

                  Just a quick one as I need to rush off...I found that the Taijiquan form was created by a master (if you believe the Zhang Sanfeng origin theory) or masters who knew exactly how the qi flow should move in the body during the form. I had always wondered why there is no right-handed Single Whip or a left hand punch in Taijiquan. As already said by Antonius and others in this forum, energy is expressed differently through the left and right hand. Conventionally, the right hand is Yang and is represented by a fist, and the left, being Yin, by a palm.

                  There is a pattern or response for any direction. Contrary to popular belief, the Taijiquan form is actually ambidextrous when it needs to be and uni-directional otherwise. Ok, gotta go, but just to share that when I learnt Baguazhang, I was able to do the Circle Walk patterns in the reverse side without thinking after I had mastered it on one side. How? By letting my qi flow and not thinking about it. I suspect the qi in our bodies is smarter than we think (or than we can possibly think).
                  百德以孝为先
                  Persevere in correct practice

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bailu View Post
                    And if you are attacked from a different angle than you are used to?
                    If your opponent comes from your left instead of right?



                    I would argue that only having skill on one side is not having a whole skill at all, no matter how skilled you are.
                    If attacked from a different angle? Well, I would do the same thing as if I were attacked from the back, or from the front even - adjust my stance accordingly, and apply my technique.

                    I would be much happier to have a technique that I can apply with 85% success with one hand, than the same technique that I can only apply with 50% success, but with either hand.

                    I think arguing that a uni-lateral skill is not a whole skill is silly. Skill is skill. Look at anyone who has reached elite skill. Would a poet who can write beautiful English, but cannot sing not have a complete English language skill? Does an Olympic high jumper who always jumps from the same foot not have complete jumping skill? What about a famous portrait painter who has never painted the outside of a house - incomplete painting skill?

                    -Matt
                    Last edited by Matt F.; 16 March 2009, 10:32 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bailu View Post
                      If you're training works for you, I'm happy for you. However, I will continue to practice both sides
                      If your teacher instructed you to practice both sides, please, please, please continue to do so.

                      And likewise, if it's working for you, I, too am happy!

                      -Matt

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                      • #26
                        Hi,

                        Had a bit of weekend free time so I was reading articles on shaolin.org and it linked me to this thread.

                        I have to say, I agree with Sifu Matt on simply adjusting the stance and applying the technique. Personally I don't really mind if I only do black tiger with my right hand and white snake with my left for the rest of my life (of course, if there were a better alternative I'd be happy). For now I won't worry about that, since Sifu Matt has told me to only practice as taught by Sifu Wong until I have mastered it.

                        My main reason for initially wanting to practice mirrored versions of the forms was simply because of the uneven stances, as Bailu mentioned. In the basic Black Tiger Steals Heart form, especially the first two combat sequences, the bow arrow stance is done with the leading left leg almost all the time, and the false leg stance with the weight on the right leg almost all the time. By the time I finish the form, I can feel my right leg trembling whereas my left leg barely feels any fatigue. Perhaps there might be imbalance in leg strength if I practice daily, three years down the road? I remember in my enthusiasm of learning I overdid it on my first day of learning the set, and woke up with a pain in my right hip-groin area which lasted a couple of days due to those false leg stances.

                        Most other forms don't appear to have this issue so maybe it's only just for this particular case? I "remedy" it by doing stance training, switching between a right leg bow arrow and left leg false leg stance several times until my left leg feels equally fatigued. Arm movements are not nearly as taxing so I don't worry about that. For now I'm only doing it on the physical level anyway, so my experience may not apply to the rest of the Shaolin Wahnam members.

                        Just sharing

                        - Daniel

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wonderlusterer View Post
                          Hi,

                          Had a bit of weekend free time so I was reading articles on shaolin.org and it linked me to this thread.

                          I have to say, I agree with Sifu Matt on simply adjusting the stance and applying the technique. Personally I don't really mind if I only do black tiger with my right hand and white snake with my left for the rest of my life (of course, if there were a better alternative I'd be happy). For now I won't worry about that, since Sifu Matt has told me to only practice as taught by Sifu Wong until I have mastered it.

                          My main reason for initially wanting to practice mirrored versions of the forms was simply because of the uneven stances, as Bailu mentioned. In the basic Black Tiger Steals Heart form, especially the first two combat sequences, the bow arrow stance is done with the leading left leg almost all the time, and the false leg stance with the weight on the right leg almost all the time. By the time I finish the form, I can feel my right leg trembling whereas my left leg barely feels any fatigue. Perhaps there might be imbalance in leg strength if I practice daily, three years down the road? I remember in my enthusiasm of learning I overdid it on my first day of learning the set, and woke up with a pain in my right hip-groin area which lasted a couple of days due to those false leg stances.

                          Most other forms don't appear to have this issue so maybe it's only just for this particular case? I "remedy" it by doing stance training, switching between a right leg bow arrow and left leg false leg stance several times until my left leg feels equally fatigued. Arm movements are not nearly as taxing so I don't worry about that. For now I'm only doing it on the physical level anyway, so my experience may not apply to the rest of the Shaolin Wahnam members.

                          Just sharing

                          - Daniel
                          Hi Daniel!

                          I just wanted to address your leg trembling after doing the black tiger steals heart set by asking if you spent enough time in stance and footwork in your personal training before you moved on?

                          Proper foundation training should ensure that there is no imbalance, and build plenty of strength both internal and external to do sets without fatigue, in fact the sets should make you feel refreshed and energized.

                          Have a good one,
                          David
                          Shaolin Wahnam USA

                          "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by David Langford View Post
                            in fact the sets should make you feel refreshed and energized.
                            Thank you David, for highlighting it once again.
                            .•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`°irene°´¯`•.¸¸. ´¯`•.

                            ---------------------------------------
                            “I wish I could show you when you are lonely or in darkness the astonishing light of your own being.”
                            Hafiz

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by David Langford View Post
                              Hi Daniel!

                              I just wanted to address your leg trembling after doing the black tiger steals heart set by asking if you spent enough time in stance and footwork in your personal training before you moved on?

                              Proper foundation training should ensure that there is no imbalance, and build plenty of strength both internal and external to do sets without fatigue, in fact the sets should make you feel refreshed and energized.

                              Have a good one,
                              David
                              Hi David,

                              I guess I could spend a lot more time on stances I actually use these sets as stance practice (focusing on the stances more), since the footwork movements, changing directions, etc. make sense, rather than "stance-walking" randomly around the room. So, I perform the footwork in mirror to train the stances on the other leg equally. I always feel it important to note that I have not YET learned from Sifu Wong, and am a complete beginner so my training is still pretty physical, and the aim of set practice is not to master the set or develop force, rather to just learn the sequences and stances. I still feel quite energized though, but surely not nearly as much as if performed properly

                              On the overall thread topic though, I think one-sided forms are not an issue on the more intermediate-advanced levels I know the first 2 sequences of black tiger which I mentioned was developed for very basic sparring training, so it is probably an exception in the world of kung fu sets.

                              Have a good one too, and hope I didn't make any mistaken claims
                              Daniel

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                              • #30
                                Hey Daniel,

                                In that case I am happy that you are going to learn from Sigung, his courses are fantastic, I am sure it will be a huge turning point for you.

                                In this case since you haven't learned from a master yet, I would avoid zhan zhuang, and just proceed gently at the form level of the basic sets so you can be ready to get the skills without having to focus on learning the techniques at the course.

                                Since you are just focusing on learning the outward forms in preparation for your first course, and have not done the usual foundation training yet, discomfort is okay as your body gets used to the new positions, but pain means you overdid it, or did it wrongly.

                                Also make sure you do not throw yourself forward into the stances.

                                Have fun and enjoy yourself!

                                David
                                Shaolin Wahnam USA

                                "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

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