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  • one-sided forms?

    Hi all,
    I have been reading your posts for some time, and they have been very interesting, thank you.
    I have a question about tai chi chuan forms; why are many of the movements only practiced on one side? I asked a teacher (who teaches tai chi for health, not fighting) who said that the body's internal organs were not arranged symetrically, and the tai chi form reflected that. In a fight wouldn't it be a problem if you had only practiced a particular pattern one way?
    Thanks and all the best,
    Dod

  • #2
    forms to both sides

    Hi Dod ,

    From what I have been taught , I would have to disagree with the advice given to you by that Taijiquan teacher .

    Yes , when you practise , for example , the Yang Style short form , There are certain moves that are only done on the one side . However , once we get the form right ,we are encouraged to practise the form the opposite way around as well . A mirror of the form .In the long form , all the movements are repeated to both sides several times anyway . Does that teacher just practise the short form ?

    I think that whether you practise for just health reasons or just for combat , or both . It is important to train yourself to be comfortable performing any of the patterns using either side of the body .

    I would say that in the case of combat . It would be a great dissadvantage to only be able to use one side for each move . If I can only perform Green Dragon to one side , it will be useless if the attack comes from the side I haven't trained against .

    In the case of health . I would say that it is important to train each side of the body equally too . For example , surely it is not a good thing for your right leg to be much stronger than your left leg . This will cause imbalance in your body . I would say that it might even effect your posture over a long period of time .

    These are just my opinions . I am just a student . However , it just doesn't make sense to me to practise any move only on one side in any Martial Art .

    Best wishes ,
    Kevin

    p.s. I hope the Wahnam students/instructors can give their opinions on this topic. I will be very interested to read what they have to say . If they agree with me I'm sure they will word it better anyway .

    Comment


    • #3
      It's a good question. Unfortunately, it's a long answer.

      Kungfu sets of many styles often have techniques performed only on one side, i.e. only with the right-hand mode or the left-hand mode. There are several reasons for this, and it depends largely on the set and the style. I'll speak in general about Kungfu sets since I am not a Taijiquan expert.

      The techniques in Kungfu sets are arranged in a specific way for different reasons, or a combination of these reasons. Some are arranged for easy remembering, others for combat application, others for force training, and still others for training special skills. Most sets combine a couple of these.

      In some short sets, techniques are performed only once, obviously on just one side. Many of these sets are arranged for remembering and preserving the techniques for posterity. Repeating techniques on both sides becomes redundant and is deemed unnecessary. All of the important ingredients are contained within the set if someone chooses to extract them to practice on the left side.

      However, contrary to what might seem logical, this may or may not be necessary. Many techniques need not be practiced ambidextrously. Just like a standard boxer uses his left to jab and his right to cross, Kungfu fighters often develop a "strong" side.

      For example, in our set Crossroads at Four Gates, all of the patterns except one are performed only on one side (though some are repeated on the same side). In this set, the right-hand mode (right leg forward) is favored over left. Furthermore, during much of the set, the right hand uses a fist while the left uses a snake palm.

      It might seem logical to extract all of the moves and practice them ambidextrously, but this is not necessarily helpful, especially for combat. Why? Obviously, opponents can attack with either their left or right leg forward (standard or "southpaw"), but that doesn't mean you need to change sides. If a boxer who is only comfortable fighting in standard switches his stance in order to fight a southpaw, he's sure to lose.

      So he should practice both sides, right? Wrong. If a boxer spends equal time on both sides, he has just doubled the number of techniques to practice and (unless he practices twice as much) cut the skill level of each one in half.

      One of the reasons why boxing is effective is because they focus on skills rather than techniques. There are really only 4 techniques in Western Boxing -- jab, cross, uppercut, hook. That's it. The rest is all variation and skill.

      Kungfu uses more techniques, but like boxing, it still focuses on skills. Furthermore, Kungfu fighters are encouraged to develop their strengths and acknowledge their weaknesses. For most of us, our right hand is stronger than the left. To pretend otherwise is to be foolish.

      Ideally, sets like Crossroads at Four Gates are for right-handed people. This set works to maximize the natural strength of the right hand. Since the left hand has less strength, the set instead uses techniques that rely more on internal force for the left, like Snake strikes.

      Later, once you have mastered the set on one side, you can mirror it to practice the other side if you like, but if you have really gone deep into the techniques, this is usually unnecessary. You just don't need every technique on both sides. It is better to have one side that is strong than to have two sides that are mediocre.

      I’m not sure about the health aspects, but the “internal organs” argument sounds weak to me. The organs are indeed asymetrical, but I have never seen any asymetrical qigong. Dynamic qigong patterns often go to one side, but then they also go to the other side. I don’t see how Taiji for health would be any different. Taijiquan forms were originally created for combat, not health. If anything, the Yang form may have been rearranged to include both sides precisely for health purposes.
      Last edited by Antonius; 27 June 2003, 02:13 AM.
      Sifu Anthony Korahais
      www.FlowingZen.com
      (Click here to learn more about me.)

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      • #4
        Thank you both for your help,
        Take care,
        dod

        Comment


        • #5
          Anthony sifu - excellent answer, thank you!
          Pavel Macek Sifu

          Practical Hung Kyun 實用洪拳

          sigpic

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          • #6
            I accompany - Sifu Anthony - Excellent answer!

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            • #7
              I've been taught by three different teachers, all with quick seperate backgrounds.
              However, they all have stated (quiet seperately from each other) that Taijiquan should be practiced on both sides, and this is a concensus that I pick up in my further reading.

              Initially, students start learning the "right sided" form (that is, the first movements are to the right), and after a year of training the full form to the right, the student then practices the form to the left, twice to the left and once to the right in each practice session. This is to rebalance the body after a year of just practicing on one side.
              Then, after a year of consistant two left and one right practice, the student should then practice the form once on each side in each practice.

              Re: the internal organs decision -
              Sure, the organs are asymetrical, however each movement should be practiced on both sides, in order to stimulate both Yin & Yang within each organ. Practice on a single side can lead to an imbalance of energy, which can lead to health problems.

              As Alex Kozma put it to me:
              "Tai Chi is about balance, so how could you not?" (practice it on both sides?)

              Comment


              • #8
                infinitum?

                I wonder, then, if we should use both hands to write with?

                Still,


                Charles
                Charles David Chalmers
                Brunei Darussalam

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Charles David View Post
                  I wonder, then, if we should use both hands to write with?

                  Still,


                  Charles
                  The fact is, you can! One side might be better at writing than the other, but that's Yin and Yang!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Bailu,

                    Indeed I do write with both hands. My question was should one?

                    With Kind Regards,


                    Chas.
                    Charles David Chalmers
                    Brunei Darussalam

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Bailu,

                      Indeed I do write with both hands. My question was should one?

                      With Kind Regards,

                      Charles
                      Charles David Chalmers
                      Brunei Darussalam

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Charles David View Post
                        Hi Bailu,

                        Indeed I do write with both hands. My question was should one?

                        With Kind Regards,

                        Charles
                        If you want writing skills that are applicable in street situations, yes!
                        What if you're presented with paper on the left side and you've only practiced right handed? What if you right arm is in a cast? LMAO!

                        Sorry, it's a bit early here!

                        To be honest, I think that we could go down the path of "should we do this, and if so, does that mean we should do this also" for ever. As humans, we like to over-intellectualise everything we do, and how can we ever reach a truely relaxed stated if we're worrying whether or not we might need to open a door with one hand or another, etc etc...

                        However, in Taijiquan terms, even if we're not looking at the medical issues, but purely at the martial aspects, then it is still fairly plain that it should be practiced both sides. As I stated, it's not just about "learning sets" on each side, but as you move through the form, you are constantly exercising joints, muscles, tendons etc... If you are only doing the form on one side, then you are only exercising these things on the one side also! It's the equivalent of doing 10,000 push ups on your right up, and 10 push ups on the left - unbalance!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Interesting developments in this thread.

                          I originally assumed that doing the sequences in reverse was "obviously" the right way. However, when I hear my far more experienced sihings opinions then I listen. I think Sihing Anthony's thoughts make a ton of sense. I have noticed over the past week that I *am* developing more skill on both sides even as I only practice the forms on the standard side. I assume it is because of the way the sequences are designed.

                          I have also practiced some of the patterns by themselves on both sides.

                          I will continue to practice the sets the standard way, and do both sides when/if I practice the patterns by singly.

                          All the Best,
                          Alex
                          "Take a moment to feel how wonderful it feels just to be alive."
                          - Sifu

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bailu View Post
                            To be honest, I think that we could go down the path of "should we do this, and if so, does that mean we should do this also" for ever. As humans, we like to over-intellectualise everything we do, and how can we ever reach a truely relaxed stated if we're worrying whether or not we might need to open a door with one hand or another, etc etc...

                            However, in Taijiquan terms, even if we're not looking at the medical issues, but purely at the martial aspects, then it is still fairly plain that it should be practiced both sides. As I stated, it's not just about "learning sets" on each side, but as you move through the form, you are constantly exercising joints, muscles, tendons etc... If you are only doing the form on one side, then you are only exercising these things on the one side also! It's the equivalent of doing 10,000 push ups on your right up, and 10 push ups on the left - unbalance!
                            I must say, these two paragraphs seem very contradictory.

                            I understand your reasoning, however I think you may have fallen into the same trap you just warned not to fall into. From my very limited experience with Taijiquan, even the movements that seem one-sided have close to equal movements (bending and extening both knees, turning to the right as well as the left, opening and closing of both shoulders, etc.). So, just viewed through a physical perspective, it's all quite balanced. And viewing Taijiquan as only physical would cause you to miss out on, well, Taijiquan!

                            I know it was just an analogy, but if your Taijiquan practice is anything like doing 10,010 one-armed push ups, then I think something might be wrong...

                            -Matt

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by drop360 View Post
                              And viewing Taijiquan as only physical would cause you to miss out on, well, Taijiquan!
                              My second teacher once said "spend 5 years developing Li, then spend 5 years focusing on qi, then 10 years on the whole".

                              If the body is not open, then whether you only look on taijiquan as physical or not is irrelevant.

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