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  • Pattern of up's and down's

    I've noticed a very distinct pattern in my chi kung practice with regard to high's and low's/up's and down's. The pattern seems to run about 3-4 weeks, and then begin again. I start to get more noticable chi flow/sensations and have an easier time attaining the chi kung state of mind. Then one day I'll have a great session, and set a new time length record for holding horse stance. Then, crash!

    For the next several days I have the hardest time staying in a chi kung state of mind. I keep up with my daily practice, even though it is difficult and seems fruitless. Slowly that goes away as I head toward another horse stance best.

    Repeat.

    Any thoughts as to a connection between a record stance training session and the following low? I know high's and low's are a part of it, but damn the low's are tough!

    -Matt

  • #2
    You may probably hear this many many times in the course of your training - above all, enjoy your training.

    While it is good to set aims, objectives and goals (which include record-best achievements), it is all too easy to be fixated on them.

    The number one rule is to relax in stance training, and when aiming for the best/longest timing, it is undeniably harder to relax because subconsciously your mind is preoccupied with that goal. When I tell people this, the usual response is "but I feel relaxed!". And usually, they are kidding themselves.

    The second important rule is to progress gradually. Add one or two breaths/seconds per session rather than aim for the the max. I thought that Bruce Frantzis expressed it well with his 70% rule. How Sifu has once described it is that you should feel as if you could have continued for much longer at the end of the training session, rather than feel you have pushed yourself to the limit (caution: this is heavily paraphrased)

    I made the mistake of not following both rules and sure enough, there were more than enough lows to discourage me.

    The other reason for the "low" you are feeling is that your body is not ready for the surge in internal force and is telling you in no uncertain terms to slow down.
    百德以孝为先
    Persevere in correct practice

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post

      The second important rule is to progress gradually. Add one or two breaths/seconds per session rather than aim for the the max. I thought that Bruce Frantzis expressed it well with his 70% rule. How Sifu has once described it is that you should feel as if you could have continued for much longer at the end of the training session, rather than feel you have pushed yourself to the limit (caution: this is heavily paraphrased)

      I made the mistake of not following both rules and sure enough, there were more than enough lows to discourage me.

      .
      Thanks, Wuji, I had similar experience. At least, it is heartening to know that I am not alone.

      Your other points are well taken, too.

      Joko
      开心 好运气
      kai xin... .......hao yunqi... - Sifu's speech, April 2005
      open heart... good chi flow... good luck ...
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Have we not opened up thy heart ...? (The Reading, 94:1)
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Be joyful, ..and share your joy with others -(Anand Krishna)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post
        The second important rule is to progress gradually. Add one or two breaths/seconds per session rather than aim for the the max. I thought that Bruce Frantzis expressed it well with his 70% rule. How Sifu has once described it is that you should feel as if you could have continued for much longer at the end of the training session, rather than feel you have pushed yourself to the limit (caution: this is heavily paraphrased)
        The last time I held horse stance of a new record, I do remember thinking that it felt like I was pushing it to the limit. My normal daily stance training is about 25 breaths (5 minutes). But that day it was 50 breaths (10 minutes).

        It's hard for me to break out of the "more, more, more - faster, faster, faster" idea, especially when I want something. Just thinking about Sifu saying "relax, relax, relax" makes a smile come from the heart.

        Simple, but not easy...

        -Matt

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Matt,

          This is something that I struggled with for awhile, too, and it manifested in several parts of my practice, not just zhan zhuang. For instance, I have always been pretty active in sports, and over time, I equated that tired-but-content feeling after a long, hard workout with it being a successful workout. Once I started progressing in my kung fu practice to the point where I was noticeably gaining more energy and feeling more refreshed as I practiced, I struggled with thoughts like, "this wasn't a good practice because I don't feel tired" and "I need to change my practice routine or practice longer because I must not be doing enough if I am so energetic at the end." And at the same time, I knew intellectually that I was practicing correctly and gaining the expected benefits! I just had to re-train myself to accept that this was the way I should feel at the end of practice, that it was a sign of positive progress.

          Another way it manifested, specifically in zhan zhuang, was with the thought, "I'm not relaxed enough, I need to relax more." Or maybe I would attach a good zhan zhuang session with side effects, like thinking that it wasn't a good zhan zhuang session if I didn't have those shaky chi legs at the end.

          Luckily, I've been given excellent guidance, and I don't think it can be said any better than Wuji. Relax and enjoy your practice. Just do it to the best of your ability at that time and the rest will take care of itself. It may also help to practice being grateful for your practice sessions. If you look over your results over a longer period than just the last few days, I'm sure you will see that the length and quality of your zhan zhuang has improved tremendously since you first started. So even if your horse stance session didn't feel as good as yesterday's, you can say to yourself afterwards, "that was a tremendous session. I am grateful that I was able to have it." Because even though I freely admit it is sometimes difficult for me to practice, whenever I do, each practice session is a treasure and a privilege.


          Best,
          Chris
          Chris Didyk
          Shaolin Wahnam USA


          Thank You.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post

            The number one rule is to relax in stance training, and when aiming for the best/longest timing, it is undeniably harder to relax because subconsciously your mind is preoccupied with that goal. When I tell people this, the usual response is "but I feel relaxed!". And usually, they are kidding themselves.

            The second important rule is to progress gradually. Add one or two breaths/seconds per session rather than aim for the the max. I thought that Bruce Frantzis expressed it well with his 70% rule. How Sifu has once described it is that you should feel as if you could have continued for much longer at the end of the training session, rather than feel you have pushed yourself to the limit (caution: this is heavily paraphrased)
            Thank you, that was an "aha!" moment. I'm always taken aback when someone posts something like 25 breaths for 5 minutes. I always seem to be stuck at 50 breaths at 3 minutes, which probably means I'm breathing much faster than I should be....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Grimlock View Post
              If you look over your results over a longer period than just the last few days, I'm sure you will see that the length and quality of your zhan zhuang has improved tremendously since you first started. So even if your horse stance session didn't feel as good as yesterday's, you can say to yourself afterwards, "that was a tremendous session. I am grateful that I was able to have it." Because even though I freely admit it is sometimes difficult for me to practice, whenever I do, each practice session is a treasure and a privilege.
              Ooooooo. I like this!
              少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

              Facebook

              "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

              -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by sunyata View Post
                Thank you, that was an "aha!" moment. I'm always taken aback when someone posts something like 25 breaths for 5 minutes. I always seem to be stuck at 50 breaths at 3 minutes, which probably means I'm breathing much faster than I should be....
                Hi Sunyata,

                I believe that the breathing (and breathing rate) should be natural. While Matt's rate of 25 breaths in 5 minutes may be right for him, 50 breaths in 3 minutes may be right for you (if it makes you feel any better, my natural breath rate in zhan zhuang is similar to yours). My breathing rate even fluctuates sometimes from session to session. Remember that the 3 golden rules are "Relax, Relax, and Relax", not "Breath slowly, breath slowly, breath slowly"


                Hey Mark,
                Glad you liked that! I have found it helpful in my own practice.
                Last edited by Grimlock; 8 May 2007, 01:32 PM.
                Chris Didyk
                Shaolin Wahnam USA


                Thank You.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Grimlock View Post
                  I believe that the breathing (and breathing rate) should be natural. While Matt's rate of 25 breaths in 5 minutes may be right for him, 50 breaths in 3 minutes may be right for you (if it makes you feel any better, my natural breath rate in zhan zhuang is similar to yours). My breathing rate even fluctuates sometimes from session to session. Remember that the 3 golden rules are "Relax, Relax, and Relax", not "Breath slowly, breath slowly, breath slowly"
                  Aha!



                  I got it in my head that relaxed = slow, when it really should = gentle or natural.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Brothers

                    Some really good advice and pointers coming up so far. I completely agree with Chris about one's breathing rate varying with the individual. I used to stress about my breathing being too fast and this is the classic mistake countered by "Don't worry just enjoy your practice". We all have unique energy systems and breathing patterns the key is that each time you train you are relaxing deeper and deeper, including the breath. I can say from the heart that when we let go of how we think our training should be, we will trully start to flow.

                    Another point I would like to make for Drop360/Matt is that often when we have a stance training session that is for no apparent reason more difficult, it often indicates that for some reason we are more emotionally or mentally tense. In this scenario it is best to smile from your heart and enjoy your Zhang Zuang. You will instantly start to relax emotionally and will find the quality comes back.

                    I also agree with the advice to progress gradually, but don't mistake this to mean stance training should be a walk in the park. Remember we are learning to relax in a demanding stance, so that all elements of our life become more relaxed and flowing.

                    All the best

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Joie de Vivre

                      Matt,

                      Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Thank you all for your wise responses.

                      This article, Ups and downs with Shaolin Chi Kung, by our Sihing Anthony, should be of interest.

                      Still Enjoying,
                      Charles David Chalmers
                      Brunei Darussalam

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At the risk of beating this issue to death, I remembered and was able to dig up a great post from Sifu Roland that initially caused the whole "breathe naturally" thing to click for me.
                        Chris Didyk
                        Shaolin Wahnam USA


                        Thank You.

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