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Combat efficiency and spiritual cultivation

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  • Combat efficiency and spiritual cultivation

    If someone is only interested to reach the very highest level in combat efficiency, is then spiritual cultivation still necessary?

    To make the point clearer: Please don’t confound spiritual cultivation with training of the mind! For this topic, spiritual cultivation means more the “universal realm” and training of the mind means more “our earth realm”. For example to stay calm and have no emotions coming up during a heavy life-death fight against several armed opponents counts as a result of training of the mind and not as spiritual cultivation.

    I like to read your opinions and experiences about this question and I will share my view with you.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ronny
    If someone is only interested to reach the very highest level in combat efficiency, is then spiritual cultivation still necessary?
    I'd say yes Someone who wnats to soar for the highest attainment in Kung Fu needs to practice Chi Kung. Someone who wnats to soar for the highest attainment in Chi Kung meditates Guess from whom this quote is

    Originally posted by Ronny
    To make the point clearer: Please don’t confound spiritual cultivation with training of the mind! For this topic, spiritual cultivation means more the “universal realm” and training of the mind means more “our earth realm”
    I respectfully diagree on this my fellow Brother When you train your mind no matter if it's genuine Kung Fu Tai Ch Chuan or Chi Kung, then you meditate on one. This means you try to get one with the Universal mind.

    Originally posted by Ronny For example to stay calm and have no emotions coming up during a heavy life-death fight against several armed opponents counts as a result of training of the mind and not as spiritual cultivation.
    In such a situation you just let your energy flow, while staying at you Dantien. This is certainly a result out of body/energy/mind training.
    Staying at your Dantien is certainly a part of spiritual cultivation, because beeing able to do so means that you have realised that you don't act with your intellectual mind, rather with your Universal mind. The Dantien actually is the seat of our Universal mind.

    So, I'd say to be able to defend yourself against several armed attackers is also a result of you spiritual cultivation.
    "From formless to form, from form to formless"

    26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
    Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

    Website: www.enerqi.ch

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    • #3
      This is an all Swiss thread to date .... but I'd like to add to it anyway

      Originally posted by Ronny
      If someone is only interested to reach the very highest level in combat efficiency, is then spiritual cultivation still necessary?
      This depends very much on what you consider to be the highest level in combat efficiency. If you consider part of spiritual cultivation to be calmness in all situations, then yes, this will be a big help to achieving optimal combat efficiency. However, you do not need spiritual cultivation per sé to be highly combat efficient.

      Roland's quote from Sigung Ho is excellent and very relevant here. We do, however, have to maybe separate the highest level of Kung Fu (which, in Shaolin Wahnam, related to spiritual attainment) with "pure" combat efficiency.

      Originally posted by Ronny
      Please don’t confound spiritual cultivation with training of the mind! For this topic, spiritual cultivation means more the “universal realm” and training of the mind means more “our earth realm”
      Interesting distinction. I wonder what others think about this.

      Originally posted by Luo Lang
      The Dantien actually is the seat of our Universal mind.
      As I understand it, this is not quite true .. but it may be a case of semantics. The Universal Mind is just that --- the Universal Mind. We can connect to it in a meditative state of mind. But we do not "possess" a Universal Mind ourselves. The "Heart", in this case, could be seen to make this connection. The Dan Tian is the main energy centre of the body. Is it also the home of the "Heart"?
      Sifu Andrew Barnett
      Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

      Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
      Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
      Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

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      • #4
        hi all,now we've got a scotsman in the mix
        quote:
        For example to stay calm and have no emotions coming up during a heavy life-death fight against several armed opponents counts as a result of training of the mind and not as spiritual cultivation.
        if you train spiriually alongside your kung fu training,your spiritual training will help you transcend your fears,
        ive had people try to intimidate me with the intent of violence and it was smilling from the heart and staying at the dantien that got me out of these situations without having to defend myself physically.i look forward to reading your posts.
        best wishes jez
        Last edited by jez; 9 February 2007, 11:04 AM.
        ".....Irrespective of race culture and religion." Sifu.

        Love to All.

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        • #5
          Past Masters Example

          Another Scottish Perspective:

          I always find the following quote from Questions and Answers Nov 1999 pertinent on these issues:

          The Venerable Harng Yien was the most senior as well the foremost of Chee Seen's disciples. Unlike the others who were frequently involved in fighting, he was also the most peace-loving. He placed spiritual cultivation far above combat efficiency. Paradoxically, or perhaps because of this spiritual focus, he was also the best fighter among the ten.
          Great topic for discussion though.

          All the best

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          • #6
            Ohh Jonny my man, I was exactly refering to this quote!!!! Scottish and Swiss mind's melted together, haha.

            Well I can only speak out from my experience. When I began with Chi Kung back in 1994 I was absolutely not interessted to get more combat efficiency. I was searching for getting my health back and well, to find out where to come from and where to go, as I lost my religion.

            When I met Sifu many years after I began my search I was not interessted in combat efficiency, rather I was still searching for good health and spirituality. As we know Sifu, Sifu could convince me that Kung Fu could also give me what I was looking for, besides the fact that I would improve my combat efficiency.

            And well, from my own experience the Monkey gives me tremendous joy, good health, spirituality and a little combat efficiency
            "From formless to form, from form to formless"

            26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
            Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

            Website: www.enerqi.ch

            Comment


            • #7
              one helps the other

              Hello all,

              in my opinion it is the best way to work on both.
              Why? In spiritual cultivation your deep understanding of life and the beings is crowing.
              That means in combat you will stay calm and rootet with the right awareness wether a storm or earthquick is trying to shake you.

              If you train your combat efficiency you will train automatically all your senses and that will help you to crow in your spiritual cultivation. To catch the unversal truth you need the help of all senses to understand all is one.
              May all beings be happy

              Kai
              ______________
              Shaolin Wahnam Germany
              www.shaolin-wahnam.de
              www.Cosmos-Chikung.de
              www.Anicca-Praxis.de

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              • #8
                To build on what Jez said,

                Cultivation of the mind enables us to increase our combat efficiency.

                Spiritual cultivation helps us avoid the fight in the first place.

                If I had to choose, I would choose the latter (because it is a lot less effort not to have to fight with anyone ), but I would prefer to have a solid foundation of the former, so that I have the luxury of taking my time persuing the latter.

                To answer the original question: yes, of course it is possible to reach a very high level of combat efficiency through mind training alone - just look at the Samurai. Thing is though, are you willing to have the life that comes with it?


                Best wishes,
                George / Юра
                Shaolin Wahnam England

                gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

                Comment


                • #9
                  Nice thread and some good answers and quotes.

                  My question is can we achieve the highest level in any art without it becoming spiritual?
                  I think that anyone who is passionate about a subject or a practice and who's life is deciated to that cause will find that it grows to become more than just the application of paint on canvas or the final rock face before the summit.

                  In the Zen/Chan tradition enlightment may occur in a split second whilst undertaking almost any task. Does that mean we shouldn't concern ourselves with separate spiritual training? Well, if that task could lead to enlightment then surely that is spiritual training! How duelistic of us to separate them.

                  Cheers

                  Simon
                  Shaolin Wahnam South London
                  http://www.wahnam.blogspot.com

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                  • #10
                    Hello everyone,

                    I would like to respectfully disagree with most of you (or perhaps I just enjoy playing Devil's advocate and stirring up things to get a good discussion going ).

                    Certainly, to attain the highest levels of fighting proficiency requires attaining a few added qualities, such as calmness, a mind that is poised to analyse things in a efficient way, spontaneity and the ability to make intuition-driven decisions. But I think that these qualities do not translate necessarily towards spiritual cultivation. There are (were) outstanding martial artists, well capable of applying their knowledge at the highest martial level, who were 1) uninterested in spiritual cultivation or 2) real assholes or even dowright evil. The tales and stories of the Jianghu (ie the outlaw world of "rivers and lakes", ie distant wilderness) in ancient China illustrate this.

                    Regarding the "training the mind" aspect first quoted, I think it is a pretty good point and an important distinction. There are numerous ways of training the mind that have nothing to do with spiritual cultivation, in fact they are often used in the pursuit of sometimes dubious empowerment goals. NLP, affirmations, etc are all practices that will train the mind and improve its abilities without involviong the individual in spiritual cultivation.

                    In any case, if your point is that people tend to gravitate towards spiritual cultivation once they've started thneir journey in the martial arts, I agree, mostly because the impulse towards righteousness is natural in all people! But there are no guarantees... I think!

                    Best

                    José de Freitas
                    Portugal

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi José de Freitas,

                      Have you never watched a single film in your life? Don't you know that the good guys always win?

                      In reality who the good guys are and who the bad guys are is very much subjective. Again, what is considered 'spiritual' can also be subjective. Maybe some of you had images of meditating monks but the simple person finding peace and beauty in day to day life is just as valid.

                      To me, the 'downright evil' will have to be selfish by their very nature. It is the nature of all learning that only the humble will appreciate and therefore benefit from what is taught.

                      There are also physical changes that accompany moods and emotions. If you imagine a happy person your mental image is of someone relaxed. Think of some angry and maybe you picture someone red in the face, fists clenched. I don't have to tell you which is better for fighting.

                      I believe that the same is true to mental anger or tension. It may not show itself physical but will still have the same effect on your fighting.

                      Simon
                      Shaolin Wahnam South London
                      http://www.wahnam.blogspot.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I’m very well aware that you can’t strictly distinct between "training of the mind" and "spiritual cultivation" but I did this distinction only for this topic to lead the discussion in a certain direction.

                        For me a very highly spiritual human being like Buddha (in his human reincarnation as Siddharta Gautama) or Damo (Boddhidharma) is just not attackable. Of course I have no proof (and it’s therefore only my personal view) but I think even if you would prepare yourself hardly for years with only one aim to kill Buddha or Damo, at the deciding moment when you stand in front of one of them, your very strong intention to kill them would suddenly disappear, your "killing state of mind" you had until a second before would change to a more pieceful state of mind. This is because (again I have no proof of that, it’s just my personal view) the very high spiritual level of Buddha or Damo is so powerful that it can change the state of mind of even a very evil person.

                        It’s funny but at this very high spiritual level "fighting" really becomes "boring" . Of course at this level "fighting" is not anymore part of your mind. And of course we can’t compare "normal" spiritual human beings with Buddha or Damo because they are just the top of the top. But even at lower spiritual levels your spiritual training will help you tremendously for your combat efficiency or even better, to be able to stop the fight before the fight starts.

                        So for me it’s a clear YES that spiritual training is necessary to reach the VERY HIGHEST LEVEL OF COMBAT EFFICIENCY! Of course different people have different views on what this very highest level of combat efficiency really is. Because this is not a 100% white or 100% black discussion I can and must accept different views!

                        Have fun with this discussion!

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