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  • Abstention in drinking/eating meat and Karma

    Hello

    I d like to ask about these in the Frequently Asked Questions section but it seems I cant.

    I ve been following recently teachings of a spiritual master (I havent met hin in person but has representatives all over the world). It has its foots from Indian religions.

    One of the things being taught is abstention (is that the right word?) from drinking and meat eating.

    Drinking should be avoided sice alcohol clouds the mind.

    Meat on the other hand mostly has to do with Karma. Feasting on other living animals' corpse and causing death to them is supposed to burden the already heavy burdening Karma. Thanks to meat eating, countless of animals are mass slaughtered, kept confined in cages and deal with a miserable death, mostly to feed our need for a tasty meal. According to the law of Karma this is a cycle which will come back to us. Not necessarilly suffer like the animals but the sure thing is that it could burden our karmic path

    According to a book I ve read based on some past research meat isnt needed and also most cases of health problems caused by nutrition are a result of meat eating. Of all the animal kingdom only fish seems to do good and offer nutrition that no other non-animal substitute can offer.

    So I d love to hear your opinion and experiences on these since you also practice and have more frequently first hand experiences with this:

    1) Is vegetarianism a good thing for martial artists and health in general? Or do I need meat to keep enough energy nutrients flowing in my body?

    2) Is abstention in meat eating one of the many needed spiritual "laws" that have to be done to reach the highest cause?

    3) Have any of you following the teachings of the Buddha system ever heard of abstention in meat eating?

  • #2
    Damian Kissey
    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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    • #3
      I was a vegetarian for over ten years after learning about the deplorable way in which animals were raised for consumption. More recently, however, I have begun to eat meat again. Out of compassion I try to limit my consumption and buy meat from animals which are raised ethically and wisely. Many times organic meats will come from smaller ranches and farms where the animals are not subjected to the tortures that factory farmed animals are.

      Very recently, I had the good fortune to find a hunting mentor and this fall I was able to bring home a beautiful white tail deer in order to feed my family.
      Before the hunt, I offered up prayers and asked that a willing animal be sent.
      I do not consider that I killed the animal, but rather that it nobly offerred its life so that we could continue ours. After it died I said prayers for its spirit so that it might have a marvellous rebirth, which I am certain that it has.
      I do not consider that I have developed bad Karma as a result of eating the meat, on the contrary, I am filled with joy at the fact that I am able to provide my family with such wholesome and nourishing food. Every meal we give thanks for our multitudes of blessings, giving special thanks to the brave animal that sacrificed itself. I pray also that I would be willing to be so courageous myself.

      I do not regret the many years that I abstained from eating meat; being a vegetarian can be a noble sacrifice. However, as my senior brother Anthony has pointed out, it can also be a foolish one. The intention to do good is not enough. One must also have the knowledge and skills in order to carry it out.

      I wish you the best in all of your endeavours. Our powers to do good are as vast as we can imagine.

      With Blessings To All Beings,
      Charles David Chalmers
      Brunei Darussalam

      Comment


      • #4
        L'il lesson from the LV course

        At one point during the class I mentioned to Sifu that after practicing chi kung, I was more sensitive about what I ate. So when I ate junk food, I felt like it's negative effects more acutely. Sifu's answer was surprising: "you should enjoy your junk food!". Take home message for me was to eat what you enjoy, otherwise, enjoy what you eat.
        I think that the same goes for alcohol, which I enjoy a great deal. You should be able to enjoy it mindfully. I actually feel like I lose the capacity to truly enjoy my beverage if I've had a little too much.
        Okay, I've said too much

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        • #5
          sunyata

          I actually experienced this very clearly some days ago. I was at my parents home. And my father cooked some sausages to me. Usually i am thinking of all the "bad" things sausages is told to do with your body.

          This time i decided that i should enjoy them and appreciate them and that intention started a wave of blessings, to my father for making them, to everyone involved in making theese sausages possible for me too eat, including the animal, animals.

          I did not only feel my digestion of them improved, i also felt alot better in my spirit.

          /Niklas

          "If a man is called to be a streetsweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven played music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great streetsweeper who did his job well."/Martin Luther King, Jr.

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          • #6
            Dear Niklas,
            Thank you for sharing that story! I also really like your quote by Dr. King in your signature line. I think it's almost even more important when one's parents offer us food, because it is something they have been doing for us for all our lives. Bon appetit!
            Munching from the heart,
            Chia-Hua

            Comment


            • #7
              Not eating meat

              I'd like to present a bit of a different side to this.I hunted and ate what i hunted till i was about 32yrs old.Then i went and sat a sesshin with a zen buddhist group and had some pretty profound openings.(I had sat zazen for quite some time prior also]When i came home i looked up at an 8point buck i had mounted on my wall and heard internally 'did i have to?'This question became a burning one and my answer was always no.I gutted,cleaned and cooked what i killed but i couldn't say honestly i had to.That was 15yrs ago and i haven't eaten meat,fish, chicken or any other sentient beings since.I have no judgement about anyone else eating meat.I've personally seen many people in different groups i'm in get quite weak and sickly after a few months of not eating meat.But not me.I am just as strong as i ever was.I'm a fighter and have been since my teens.Although i do use energy much differently since changing to Internal Arts.I practised Okinawan Karate for the large part of my life.I work in construction and don't back down from much of anything.My point is that things are not the same for everyone.Problems start when people try to make them that way.My spiritual teacher can make eating chicken look like a profound experience.[He's from quwait and they can suck a chicken bone.]I enjoy seeing him enjoy it.But i'm not suffering.It's clear that it's my way.The proof is in the pudding.I have no physical problems at all.I went for my 20 yr checkup and the doctor said keep doing whatever it is i do.I'm the only non-meat eater of anyone[in the circles i live in] in reckneck delaware where i live.And it's all cool.I could say everyone should eat mostly cheese pizza.LOL..But it works for me.I think personally that blanket statements antagonize people unneccassarily.Just wanted to throw in some different perspective.Happy Holidays all, Gusty

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gusty View Post
                That was 15yrs ago and i haven't eaten meat,fish, chicken or any other sentient beings since.I have no judgement about anyone else eating meat.
                Fluffy moss , spinaches to giant redwoods are sentient beings too

                i've heard a pro vegetarian story : mow somebody's grass they thank you , pluck someone's prized orchid they get angry , steal and eat the farmer's chicken you get hit , kill the owner's family pet dog you get arrested , but take your neighbour's life and you get hangman's noose.

                I think the degree of karmic effects from eating anything depends on the way it's done ( respectful hunters do differently then fox hunting parties ) and also the type of sentient being consumed ( human cannibalism will have more complex karmic consequences then eating cabbage ).

                Anyway , in Shaolin Wahnam , we have a good and effective guideline for all types of eaters ( life always feeds upon other lifes ) : Enjoy and relax when gathering food , cooking & eating and practise the Shaolin Arts daily.....God /Wu wei will guide you .

                With Shaolin salute ,

                damian.
                Damian Kissey
                Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
                www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Its being a long time since I posted but here it goes.

                  Thanks fo rthe link Dr. Damian Kissey
                  I didnt check the whole thread in the link but after reading some posts in there and in here these are a few comments I ll make

                  Its true some vegetarians are unhealthy. Especially those in western countries will find it hard to have a healthy diet as vegetarians. But if someone gets hold of meditteranean recipes will find lots of healthy food that dont have meat. I am note a vegan btw. I consume everything except anything derived of flesh.

                  I ve seen a few comments in here regarding respect for the slaughtered animal, blessintgs, and respectful hunters. But this brings out some questions in my mind. Compared to hundreds or thousands of years ago, nutrition was a harder achievement than today. Today there is an abandunce of food. We can find whatever we want. If we want to find nutritious food that doesnt involve flesh we can as well do so.

                  The abundance of food also brings another matter. Since humans can find meat easilly in stores, why hunt an animal in wild life, which not only is rarer to find than the countless of meat found in supermarkets, but it may also have its children waiting for it? Killing that animal also leaves its small ones to die from hunger. Its an unnecessary killing even for those that cant live without meat. There is countless of dead animals in supermarkets already for consumption.

                  Also unlike hundreds and thousand of years ago where humans lived and grew up their animals, which also resulted to some connection and respect between them, animals today are used like objects. Some of us may be blessing the animal and feel respect for it, but at the same time we create a miserable life for countless of other animals, that doesnt necessarilly have to do with the pain and misery they feel during slaughter, but during their whole lives.

                  They are injected with hormones thus grow faster and get slaughtered sooner, fed with dead animals, live in confined spaces during their whole limted life, never see nature in which they were bound to live in....all these are a result of high demand, and of money hungering businessmen. In other words the animal gains nothing, because it sacrifices its whole existence since the day it is born. The closest connection we usually have with animals are with dogs, cats and other pets. Other animals are seen in zoos and television.

                  Recently I found a truck fool of goats. Since I love animals I aproached them in hope I ll caress some. Some of them stared at me directly in my eyes in that confined space, trying to get a smell. Watching their eyes I saw nothing but innocense and ignorance. It was almost like watching a small kid.

                  These animals were going to be slaughtered. And its indeed very annoying atleast for me to think of so many animals, probably millions of them every year living like that and being slaughtered in a very miserable way.

                  Atleast if most of these animals were sent to Afrika in villages were people are dying from lack of nutrition the hell with it. These animals would have given their lives to people that need them the most. But they are giving their lives for profit, and for people that are dying from too much food instead.

                  Also the meat industry doesnt cause misery only to those animals. As it is expanding it creates further destruction to nature. Forests have to be cut down, areas where free living animals live have to be flattened and transformed into an industrial area and so forth.

                  Today even the simple tuna is expected to be depleted in a few years time. Imagine the destruction we are causing.

                  If we see someone slaughter our dog, cat or any other favourite pet to feed himself we will feel terrified and sadness as if we lost a human friend or relative. But a pig(a very smart animal), a goat, a sheep. a cow etc, we dont have the appropriate connection with and realisation of them since we see them everyday.....as a material in our plates, which then ends up in our mouths, and the most powerfull impression we get from these animals is taste.

                  I many times feel just like you people, like its ok to eat an animal and such for the reasons you mentioned, but sometimes I wonder (and especially after these thoughts) if this feel is a result of this consuming and materialistic society programming us to feel like that thus clouding our minds and blinding us from having the right feelings.

                  Anyways I d like to close this post by saying that the spiritual master I found (but unlike my friends I never seen him in person) initiate people when they are ready to live as vegetarians and dont drink, which also puts me in a dhilemma reading all these opinions. I also think this master seems to read people's karma from distance (unless I am fooled) which may show some truth to the importance of this.

                  A woman once sent him a request for initiation. He denied her. His reply was "how can you seek the truth through a lie?". When she was asked if she has done anything she shouldnt have done she replied "me? no......well ok...I ate a sausage or two sometimes". My friend saw that woman.
                  Last edited by Zenon; 10 January 2007, 01:03 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zenon View Post
                    Anyways I d like to close this post by saying that the spiritual master I found (but unlike my friends I never seen him in person) initiate people when they are ready to live as vegetarians and dont drink, which also puts me in a dhilemma reading all these opinions. I also think this master seems to read people's karma from distance (unless I am fooled) which may show some truth to the importance of this.

                    A woman once sent him a request for initiation. He denied her. His reply was "how can you seek the truth through a lie?". When she was asked if she has done anything she shouldnt have done she replied "me? no......well ok...I ate a sausage or two sometimes". My friend saw that woman.
                    Dear Alex ,

                    Thank you for your post.

                    If i may ask , what is the name of the spiritual master or his representative in Cyprus you referred to above?When studying in Belgium in 1980s , i corresponded with some internal arts group in Cyprus and Greece.

                    Best wishes in all your good endeavours.
                    As Sifu Andrew stated to you before " The Guru will appear when the chela is ready".

                    With folded hands ,

                    damian .
                    Damian Kissey
                    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
                    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you for your wishes

                      My master is Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji


                      This is the "movement"
                      This is the only official website of Radha Soami Satsang Beas and Science of the Soul. RSSB is a religious organization guided by the fundamental spiritual beliefs found at the heart of most religions, under the mentorship of a living spiritual teacher.



                      I ve found something in Wikipedia although there arent much mentioned.


                      The representative in Cyprus is Mr. Heraclis Achilleons.

                      If these arent the ones you ve seen can you tell me more about the group you ve met?

                      btw: They are branched everywhere. Perhaps if you tell me where you are (continent city) I might find the adress of the closest branch to you so you can check it out, since I have all the adresses of their branches.
                      Last edited by Zenon; 14 January 2007, 03:33 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Thank you Alex.

                        Yes , i've coresponded with Mr Heraclis ( a good soul).

                        Congratulations , you have found the Master .

                        Not all paths are for all people , despite being vegetarians , we should always respect others who follow other dietary system.

                        With folded hands ,

                        damian.
                        Damian Kissey
                        Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
                        www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am very happy to hear that

                          I hope I wasnt misunderstood as someone having anything against people who eat meat. In my posts I only expressed some concerns that might probably prove helpful for everyone.
                          The only people is hard for me to show respect for, are those with bad intentions, that do harm on purpose and enjoy causing misery to any kind of living form. I have nothing against people who just consume meat.

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                          • #14
                            Dear Zenon,

                            I'm pleased that you have had the good fortune to find a true Master. Congratulations.

                            You asked a question which I will try to answer as best I can, and in fact which you already answered yourself.

                            [QUOTE=Zenon;53646] Since humans can find meat easilly in stores, why hunt an animal in wild life, QUOTE]

                            The argument that we should eat the animals that have already been killed is illogical. By eating those animals we are just ensuring that more animals will be raised and killed in order to fill those spaces in the store's fridges. By eating those animals that were, in some cases, tortured or mutilated, we are taking responsibility for those actions.

                            Suffice it to say, that my family is now eating the highest quality meat, from an animal that lived its life in the wild, not subject to the cruelty of the farm and factory system.

                            I wish you the best of luck with your practice.

                            With Kind Regards,
                            Charles David Chalmers
                            Brunei Darussalam

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cha muir View Post
                              By eating those animals that were, in some cases, tortured or mutilated, we are taking responsibility for those actions.
                              Dear Siheng,

                              Are we sure about this? That sounds really bad! What does it mean to 'take responsibility for those actions'?

                              Mark
                              少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

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                              "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

                              -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

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