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You right, there would be an influence, like anybody projecting their energy onto someone, and probably more so because of their training. As a martial application it has not been shown to work against a resisting attacker.
Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And yes, those trained would react differently - their training will allow their bodies to mitigate the damage caused.
Breaking bricks with internal force yet the use of body dynamics of weight and motion is used??? Either don't touch the brick or place the hand on the brick, and without movement, break it! The brick has no need to please.
As I understand it, disruption of the energy flow is what "empty force" is all about.
Bricks are not alive and do not have meridians with energy flowing along them (unless I am very much mistaken). Breaking bricks works on a different principle.
Best wishes,
Last edited by George; 19 April 2008, 02:25 PM.
Reason: Time to think of the Dan Tian ;-)
"For their own safety" is normally a phrase used as an excuse when a student hasn't conformed yet, not because they are afraid of injuring that student
I am curious about your use of 'normally'.
I agree that the explanation "For their own safety" can be mis-used. I've been lucky enough to participate in a demonstration of Sifu's force (Brighton Chi Kung course). Afterwards, I saw Sifu politely refuse to demonstrate the same technique on someone else.
"For their own safety" was very relevant in this example.
Originally posted by George
.. their training will allow their bodies to mitigate the damage caused
This was also my supposition. Since I haven't experienced Peter Young's force, it is still a theory.
Originally posted by George
Thank you for allowing me to reflect on my own development ...
I did the same thing, so I'd also like to thank Zenon for posting the clip and shaolin1 for reactivating the thread.
Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What can I say to that? It's like trying to prove that you didn't buy something - you don't get a receipt for not buying it. Has anybody seen empty force been applied on a resisting attacker? Have you or is it your belief?
Disrupting somebody's meridians normally fails against someone that is not compliant.
You obviously believe in the power of chi. All I'm saying is, don't get fooled.
Whenever someone tries to apply empty force in an actual fight (other than stories told), they either get their ass kicked or they end up thrashing like children.
If one wants to lay claim that empty force is a good self defence method, then show it on a resisting attacker. If one wants to lay claim that they use internal force to break bricks, then don't use physical action. Isn't that reasonable?
I am curious about your use of 'normally'.
I agree that the explanation "For their own safety" can be mis-used.
"For their own safety" was very relevant in this example.
"Normally" meaning "often found" in schools that protect the promotion of their methods.
I can't comment on your example. I wasn't there to see if you were compliant and the other student not. Or if it had nothing to do with that and the student would have got hurt because of some other reason.
Why should warrior monks and scholar warriors, who were frequently in life and death situations, who had fight in wars, dedicated many hours practicing a skill that they knew didn't work in real fight ?
If you can see so clearly that it doesn't work, these people, warrior monks, were the greatest warriors of china, would see that too.
Do you really think that chinese emperors would want for bodyguards some deluded guys who spend hours training skills that doesn't work in a real life?
I see, if the emperors had you as counsellor, they will not get fooled.
I never saw this skill and never experienced it, but I know for sure that it works, why ?
Because these war experts would not practiced it for centuries if it doesn't work.
You could actually consider what George has been saying.
I wasn't there to see if you were compliant and the other student not.
This made me smile, in particular "I wasn't there".
I am curious why you are directing this thread onto 'empty force' though? If you have a problem with the brick-breaking videos, why not say so directly?
Disrupting somebody's meridians normally fails against someone that is not compliant.
Are you speaking strictly about using empty force to disrupt meridians or are you including internal strikes in that too?
But going alone on the presumption that you're only talking about empty force here, I'm curious as to why you'd say that disruption usually fails on someone who isn't compliant. Sure in much of what we can find on the internet and out in the world, your statement is correct- most folks out there demonstrating their empty force are a bunch of charlatans (I sincerely have my doubts about Master Young, but I've never experienced his empty force nor seen it demonstrated in person). However, if someone truly possesses genuine empty force, it would seem to me that their force could always disrupt meridians IF it's powerful enough. After all, qi doesn't know that we do or don't believe in something. Qi doesn't know whether or not we'll go along with the demonstration. It can only cease to flow properly should it be disrupted by some means, be it empty force, an internal strike, a stack of encyclopedias falling on my head, what have you.
To put your argument into other words, one could firmly not believe in blood. But it wouldn't stop them from bleeding if they cut themselves.
I'd say most empty force demonstrations don't work on the noncompliant because the demonstrator is full of baloney. When I get to experience the real deal, I'll be in a better position to comment.
It's the exaggerations around training methods that I'm emphasizing.
For example; many tai chi schools practise push hands and no combat techniques. Those who become pretty good at push hands often feel that they can handle themselves in a combat situation. The reality is that it would be like wanting to build a house with only a screw driver. They even explain how it can work. It's like the builder saying, you can use the screw driver to screw in screws, you can chisel, you can drill holes, etc. Yes, but actually a real chisel and drill would be better.
Many methods of training are to develop an aspect of a comprehensive syllabus. To think only that aspect would do the trick in a combat situation would be risky, unless you were lucky enough to have trained in the screw driver technique and along came a screw.
Empty force is an aspect of training, and its influence could be pulled off in certain situations. I've met a few women that have scolded an intruder with a knife, so that the intruder left immediately.
Tiago
Often people in power and lots of money miss finding the best because of their quick access to things.
You obviously believe in the power of chi. All I'm saying is, don't get fooled.
It is not really a question of belief. It is a hypothesis based on my own personal experience.
I can already influence a person's energy flow to a point where it manifests in outward physical movement. The amount of internal force I have is relatively low, and my mind is relatively weak, so the influence is quite small.
Projecting the increase in effect based on a much greater amount of internal force and a much stronger mind, makes the possibility of using "empty force" in combat sound entirely reasonable to me.
That said, whether there is anyone in the world who has actually reached that level is another question altogether. I don't know.
Also, the effect might depend on how vigorous the energy flow of the target person is. The energy flow of a practitioner of a genuine internal art is more vigorous than that of an ordinary person, so it would make more sense if it manifested as larger movements. This is just a theory though.
If one wants to lay claim that they use internal force to break bricks, then don't use physical action. Isn't that reasonable?
You completely missed my point from before: there is more than one way of applying internal force.
Breaking a brick involves channelling energy to make, for example, your arm "heavy" and "solid" and then using that to smash the brick. This works fine for breaking all the bricks in the stack at once. Physical action is necessary, just as if you were using a hammer.
Selective breaking requires a different application, but I don't understand it well enough to try and explain it.
Another application would be to transmit your energy and use it to disrupt the energy flow of the person. This can be done through contact, or from a distance.
In my very limited understanding, "empty force" would be the manipulation of a person's energy flow that manifests in physical movement.
Personally, I feel that in combat it would be easier and more effective to disrupt the energy flow with a transmission, than to try and manipulate the flow itself, especially if the latter is dependant on how vigorous the energy flow is in the first place.
It seems that none of you guys have actually seen anyone use empty force in a real combat situation or in the ring or at least against a non compliant attack. That makes it a belief! Because one is able to influence chi flow, it makes sense to believe/hypothesize that if taken further one could manipulate an attacker. If so, you need to be taught and your teacher must be able to demonstrate this ability. Otherwise you'll be chasing empty dreams.
Good luck with your training. When you pull it off, put it on video for all of us to see?
I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing (empty force). To avoid having a circular conversation, please clarify what you mean by 'empty force' and how this relates to 'internal force'. Since you are a Shaolin Wahnam student, please use your own experiences when describing 'internal force'.
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