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  • Modern science and Taijiquan

    Esteemed Colleagues,

    The naming of this thread was taken from the "Modern Science and Qigong" thread so I thank that person for having the foresight to merge modern science and yangshengong (also known as qigong, neigong, yangshen, neiyanggong, etc with its numerous spellings) practices to see if it matters, or if it is important.

    I have decided to use and apply those principles to what is presently called taijiquan (many spellings, of course).

    Here is a link to journal that differentiated the many manifestation of taijiquan (24, 48, 42 postures, etc) and showed the benefit/outcome.

    How exactly does taijiquan work?
    a. Is it qi?
    b. If I do not believe in qi, but still do taijiquan, will I get benefit from it?
    c. Which form is better? Why
    d. Can I make up a taijiquan form, teach it and people still get benefit from it? Why?
    e. WIll waving one's hands in the air and acting as if you don't care show benefit? Why?
    f. What part does relaxation (response) play in helping participants?
    g. If I make up a 6 posture form, and teach it, will students experience any benefit?
    h. WIll there be benefit with post standing exercise?




    Take a look at the endpoints associated with some of the figures.

  • #2
    I am not a Tai Chi Chuan specialist, but I try to do my best to give some answers:

    How exactly does taijiquan work?
    a. Is it qi?
    Tai Chi Chuan without Chi is simply not Genuine Tai Chi Chuan

    b. If I do not believe in qi, but still do taijiquan, will I get benefit from it?
    People may or may not get benefit from let's say form alone. It's like doing other simple moving exercises.
    You will get for sure the best benefit if you are able to generate Chi and let it flow. This is what also Tai Chi Chuan is all about. Remember the Chi in the name.
    It's not a question if somebody is believing in Chi. It's a question of is the system high level enough and is the Master qualified enough and is the student ready to follow instructions and do it as best as possible.
    I know a lot of people not believeing in Chi. Once they experienced bythemselves, this question disappeared fast.

    c. Which form is better? Why
    Forms have their meanings. Different forms for different purposes.
    Ying and Yang.

    d. Can I make up a taijiquan form, teach it and people still get benefit from it? Why?
    Do you mean invent?
    Great Masters can modyfie form, but they keep the essence. Yet students still benefit.
    Ignorant people who do not know any thing about Chi Kung and Tai Chi Chuan , it's origin, the philosphy and so on and try to mix up styles and try to invent their own style for their own ego will probably not reach this goal.

    e. WIll waving one's hands in the air and acting as if you don't care show benefit? Why?
    Mmmmmhhh, Is this question for real

    f. What part does relaxation (response) play in helping participants?
    The most important one.

    g. If I make up a 6 posture form, and teach it, will students experience any benefit?
    No. Actually have you ever thought about the other way round.
    If you make up a 6 posture form, teach it, could it also be that students will block themselves and bring harm to themselves?
    This is the point where you harm yourself

    h. WIll there be benefit with post standing exercise?
    By post standing you mean after doing some standing positions for a while like stance training. If so, you will only benefit if you are able to let the Chi flow after the stance.
    "From formless to form, from form to formless"

    26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
    Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

    Website: www.enerqi.ch

    Comment


    • #3
      aims and objectives

      Hello Yeniseri,

      I read through the journal article. Unfortunately their criteria for selecting studies were statistical, rather than the quality of the Taijiquan. As a result I see no evidence whatsoever that anybody involved was actually training Taijiquan. As I hope you are aware, performing Taiji forms is by no means the same thing as training Taijiquan.

      Finding out whether performing Taiji forms can help senior citizens fall over less, while quite useful, does not offer much insight into how Taijiquan works.

      Regards,
      Jeffrey Segal

      Comment


      • #4
        The title of this thread should be "Modern pseudo-science and gentle callisthenics." The current title is not accurate because we are not talking about Taijiquan. Nor is it scientific, for that matter. If an experiment purported to test the effects of aspirin on blood pressure, but used candy instead of aspirin, then I wouldn't call the results scientific.
        Sifu Anthony Korahais
        www.FlowingZen.com
        (Click here to learn more about me.)

        Comment


        • #5
          absolutely

          Antonious Maximus

          Your instincts are excellent but as you stated "If an experiment purported to test the effects of aspirin on blood pressure, but used candy instead of aspirin, then I wouldn't call the results scientific" because there is an obvious difference between candy and aspirin for all to see.

          Many studies do the obvious because there is a placebo effect in all interventions. Placebo effects are more obvious in psychological states as you already know so the blinding phase or lack therof is a way to 'test' that an actual 'cure' (effect) is taking place. That is why there are trials with sham qigong, sham acupuncture, sham taijiquan, etc to test the extent of the placebo effect.
          Sham acupuncture, sham taijiquan, sham qigong, etc has been know to be as effective as the real thing! So the person teaching the method is one element in the success of said methods.

          Comment


          • #6
            there is an obvious difference between candy and aspirin for all to see.
            If they make the candy look like aspirin and put it in an aspirin bottle, will be it obvious for all to see? That's exactly what they're doing with their fake taiji -- making it look like taijiquan, and putting it a taijiquan bottle.

            Sham acupuncture, sham taijiquan, sham qigong, etc has been know to be as effective as the real thing!
            Again, this is unscientific. Would you recognize the "real thing" if you saw it? I don't think you would. The questions you posed in this thread make it obvious that you wouldn't know genuine taijiquan if you saw it.
            Sifu Anthony Korahais
            www.FlowingZen.com
            (Click here to learn more about me.)

            Comment


            • #7
              spot on

              Antonious Maximus,

              You are right again. Form is different from gong or zhuang and form is usually the last thing that one masters when learning taijiquan.
              The Emory University study used a 10 posture sequence in the form of a moving taijizhuang (they called it taijiquan and that is understandable if one recognized that the postures were from Yang style tai chi).

              The 10 postures was enough to decrease the falls in the elderly by a significant value! What does that mean? It means people are trying to use medical science to find ways to decrease humanity's pain in less invasive ways so they have a quality of life where they can do things for themselves.

              Aspirin looking like candy is hard for me to swallow but again there is merit if one can envision it so I defer to you! excellent point you have stated.

              Comment


              • #8
                good insight

                Dr Paul Lam, a wonderful and humble man is helping humanity by spreading the value of taijiquan to all who will listen. His Tai Chi for Arthritis programme is very good for those who feel they can benefit from such exposure!


                Comment


                • #9
                  Many forms of gentle exercise can bring certain benefits --- flexibility, balance, circulation, etc.

                  It is known that placebo effects are present in almost ANY form of medical intervention.

                  If you want to test the effectiveness of anything, you must FIRST ensure that you have the genuine article for the test. Without doing so, the basis for the test does not exist.

                  Andrew
                  Sifu Andrew Barnett
                  Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

                  Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
                  Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
                  Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've posted some of this before.

                    First of all back when these methods were developed there was no knowledge of physics, or biology as we know it today. Nor did they have equipment to test and analyze. Generic terms such as "Chi" were used to describe various proceses that were happening in the body. What we "feel" in our body is much different than what is actually happening in our body. "Chi" is not something tangible, no easily transferred. Sometimes Chi is used to describe breath, blood circulation, or the pathway that intent (yi) leads. And as usual, there are layers to everything (just as there is in the body). I could describe fajing without the word "chi." You can see the force travel through the body clearly in fajing, these esoteric and simplified ways of describing other-wise complicated occurances, are I guess ways of helping us learn by "feeling" instead of "thinking" or analyzing too much.

                    Some believe that chi is actually a term for "bioelectricity." I have heard external artists using the term "chi" very frequently, but it is quite different than how an internal martial artist might use it.
                    Last edited by Baguamonk1; 18 July 2006, 11:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Chi" is not something tangible, no easily transferred.
                      Tell that to my arms, I'm sure they would disagree.

                      Mark
                      少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

                      Facebook

                      "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

                      -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Baguamonk,

                        First of all back when these methods were developed there was no knowledge of physics, or biology as we know it today. Nor did they have equipment to test and analyze. Generic terms such as "Chi" were used to describe various proceses that were happening in the body. What we "feel" in our body is much different than what is actually happening in our body. "Chi" is not something tangible, no easily transferred. Sometimes Chi is used to describe breath, blood circulation, or the pathway that intent (yi) leads. And as usual, there are layers to everything (just as there is in the body). I could describe fajing without the word "chi." You can see the force travel through the body clearly in fajing, these esoteric and simplified ways of describing other-wise complicated occurances, are I guess ways of helping us learn by "feeling" instead of "thinking" or analyzing too much.
                        It seems that you repeat yourself.

                        I don't think that Past Master's wisdom and knowledge is esoteric and a simple way to descibe something complicate. In fact it may be complicate, but Past Masters have worked for decades to make it simple and effective. Now people try to be smarter, people who just read books, Surf in the internet, people who are probabely not even half as old a my Sifu's experience in Internal Art is. Now add the experieces of my Sifu's Master's, my Sigung's, my Sitaiging's and well then just imagine how much wisdom and experience ther is

                        Honestly, nothing more to say as you have already said?

                        Your discription of Chi is absolutely not complete, furthermore it's just an intellectual try to explain of something which was never experienced.

                        As I already said to you in another thread; we have three treasures of human beeing, namely Shen Chi Jing. Just research....
                        "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                        26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                        Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                        Website: www.enerqi.ch

                        Comment

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