Different stance training methods, different effects

[Molly]

Greetings to everyone this fine summer evening!

My training has been going quite well, in spite of the awful 5 am work start (still no progress on getting up early enough in the morning for zhan zhuang. I'm just not a morning person- yet ). As of late, my whole stance training has been lasting between 50 min to 1 1/2 hours, including qi flow, standing meditation, and the art of flexible legs. I held back on adding breaths to my training for some time, focusing mainly on having a good, relaxed stance. This seems to have been a good idea. Within the last few weeks, I'd found I was more than comfortable at 65 breaths in Golden Bridge, and experimented a bit until I found my comfort zone, which rounded out to 90 breaths.
What has been puzzling me is why slight variations in my stance training seem to make such a big difference in the quality of my practice. I'll hold each stance for 18 breaths before doing Golden Bridge. That, plus Golden Bridge is what I enjoy the most. But sometimes I'm pressed for time and I'll simply do Golden Bridge instead. I find it's much harder to relax into my horse stance and stay completely relaxed throughout without doing any other stances. I'm hoping some of my gracious seniors could shed some light on this.
Also, even though my primary focus right now is Golden Bridge, I've been incorporating One Finger Shooting Zen into my training more regularly now. So, I'll train my stances in the early afternoon after work, then do One Finger Zen later on in the evening if I have time. It's wonderful and leaves me feeling great, but I can barely get through 3 full repititions before my legs are totally on fire. It's by far, much less time than I spend in Golden Bridge so I'm wondering why it seems so much more difficult to hold that horse stance. Again, any advice, insights, or admonishments that I'm over-analyzing here (who, me?! Never!) would be greatly appreciated. Enjoy your training everyone!
Molly

[Antonius]

As of late, my whole stance training has been lasting between 50 min to 1 1/2 hours, including qi flow, standing meditation, and the art of flexible legs.

Congratulations, Molly. This is the kind of training that Sifu hopes his students will pursue, but very few actually do. I'm happy to hear that some are. If you can maintain this program, you will be amazed at the results. The downside is that no one will want to spar with you.

I hope you're also balancing your stance training with sequences, kicks, etc.

I find it's much harder to relax into my horse stance and stay completely relaxed throughout without doing any other stances.

This happened to me as well. I think it has to do with the various different muscle fibers. Please note that this is my own personal theory, not something I learned from Sifu.

As I understand it, there are white fibers and red fibers. The white ones are the fast-twitch, and the red ones are the slow-twitch. (Long-distance runners tend to have more of the red ones.)

When you first start stance training, I think you're mostly using the white fibers. Over time, you not only develop more red fibers, but you learn to relax the white ones. Many of us have probably experienced the difference. When it burns and burns and you feel you can't hold it any more, that's the white fibers. But when you feel comfortable in your stance, that's the red ones.

In Chinese terminology, I think it would be something like this. Fully relaxing facilitates the flow of qi, which in turn engenders the production of jing.

There's my philosophizing for the day.

[Alex]

Hi Molly, recently my breathing has deepened a lot so doing 30 breaths for all the stances would mean I'm practising a lot longer than I want to. So now I practise three circle stance for 30 breaths and golden bridge for longer but I do another stance of my choice before this. For example it might be -

Thursday
Horseriding stance
Three circle stance
Golden bridge

Friday
False leg stance left and right side
Three circle stance
Golden bridge

Saturday
Bow-arrow left and right side
Three circle stance
Golden bridge

[Molly]

Many thanks to Alex and Sifu Anthony for your always quick replies.

Alex I too have noticed that the more relaxed I am, the longer my stance training sessions last, despite doing the same number of breaths.

If you can maintain this program, you will be amazed at the results.

Yeah I inadvertenly hurt my boss when I gave her an enthused high-five. A few minutes afterwards she said her hand was still buzzing. Oops .

The downside is that no one will want to spar with you.

He he. Fortunately my training partner is quite a bit better than me skillwise. But as a result of my stance training, I've found I can withstand his hand sweeps and immortals much more than I could before the course. He's also remarked that he has to make sure even moreso that he's doing his techniques properly and relaxedly to defend against mine. Personally, I'm not a very good judge of my own improvement, but I guess that means that I'm making progress .

I hope you're also balancing your stance training with sequences, kicks, etc

.

My kicks still need lots of work, but I practice the sequences and free sparring regularly with my partner. Actually lately, instead of that, we've been working on improving single techniques. I picked out a bunch of my most dreaded techniques and spent my practice sessions working on getting them better, smoother, and more confident. This last weekend was all about 'Hide Flowers in Sleeves'. It's fairly easy to execute if your opponent doens't grip very well. But if they have a wicked tiger claw, man that's another story altogether. So I'm finally hiding some very lovely flowers up there, as opposed to the stench blossoms I had before.
Well it's another gloriously hot afternoon here, so if you'll all excuse me, I'm going to take a relaxed attitude towards things (pun intended ) and go stand around in the park. Cheers! Molly

[Adam Kryder]

“又寂寞又美好” Beautiful SOlitude by 幾米

Molly,

Just a couple of thoughts,

1. You might want to take an unspecified amount of time and double check your form (Stances, etc.).

Personally, not having a Sifu around to check up on the little things is something that must be taken into consideration. For example, I have recently discovered that I had been poking my ass out like a Hollywood cheerleader. THis has led me to relearning how to move. Quite a challenge.

And, being without a Sifu nearby for a while has been such, difficult and rewarding.

2. In regard to number of breaths and slight variations in practice I have 2 things to share.

- I remember when I was first learning "3 levels to Earth" sometimes I would have amazing sessions where I could comfortably do 50 or more and feel an incredible lightness, but usually the next day I would struggle to do 10or twelve. Sifu (Skafar) recommended that I balance my practice a little more.

- Almost all of us have our own unique version of training that still adheres to Sigung's recommendations. For instance, Sifu once told me that even at his level he only practiced 10 breaths for stance training, 30 in golden bridge, however, that due to the deepness of his relaxation and breathing, It would take approx. 1 hour for Zhan Zhuang alone. (Keep in mind he is a who I call Sifu and has been training in Wahnam for 6 years)

Yet as a variation, I have heard stories of others, in Wahnam and from books holding Golden Bridge for 1 hour or maybe even more.

I guess all in all, it is important we find our own rhythm in training, while still honoring the knowledge passed down to us throuought the generations (ie. Sifu's Instructions). The Art makes the knowlege accessible, the teacher teaches the art, it is our own personal responsiblitity and challenge to claim that knowledge on our own.

3. I know your in minnesota, it might be a good idea to find some time (somewhere down the road) and have a weekend visit to Kitchener to review with Sifu in Kitchener www.shaolin-wahnam.com , or contact someone in Toronto (I dont know the link right now) Kind of like a Check up with the 'Docta'. Besides road trips are where its at! Ya know what Im sayin'. (Hat now twisted sideways. A wiley young woman speaks, "Since when did you become a gangster thug")


All in all, I use the above examples to express that, every once in a while it is good to take a look at where we are at and how we might improve. To see how far weve come and to maintain our sights on the horizon. I am joyful to hear that things are going well for you. Keep up the good work.

Best Wishes

Adam

[Simon]

Hi Molly,

As Sifu Anthony has said, you are setting a shining example for other students. Force training is the key to Shaolin, but as Sifu Anthony also points out, it must be balanced with learning and practicing the other skills involved in good Kung Fu. I believe this is especially true for beginners.

I must also confess that I find running through all the stances before sitting in Golden Bridge seems more benficial. Even if the total time spent in stances is almost doubled, it seems easier.

To me, this is because I have much more time to get into a chi kung state of mind before going into Golden Bridge for the long haul. In the same way I find Lifting the Sky more beneficial after ten minutes standing meditation than if I going straight into it after only thirty seconds.

This highlights that what we are working with is in facy energy, and not just muscle. The more we can relax and focus on the energy aspect of whatever we do in life, the easier it becomes and the greater the results.

Simon

[Molly]

Many thanks again for everyone's input,
Sorry for the silence, work has been crazy and all my spare time between that and settling into new digs has been devoted to practice. Hey Adam! I hope you're doing well and training in the cutest cheerleader outfit you can find !
And thank you Simon. It helps me answer my own question. Not only do we have more time to relax and get into a qigong state of mind, doing our other stances before Golden Bridge, but physically everything has more time to relax and loosen up. Legs, hips, back, the whole shebang. In this case, more is definetly better.
I was discussing my similar problems with my stance in one finger zen with my practice partner, and he pointed out that when we're first getting used to the one finger shooting zen routine, we're more focused on the hands and what's going on above the waist. This is where I'm currently at. As a result, my horse stance isn't quite as good and I'm tiring out faster. Nothing a little time and effort (i.e. kung fu ) can't cure.
But all this being said, if I am pressed for time, and can only do golden bridge, how can I maximize my practice without having time to fully warm up? Has anyone either currently or in the past focused exclusively on golden bridge and if so what helped you best to relax? Thanks everyone for your time!
Molly

[Antonius]

Has anyone either currently or in the past focused exclusively on golden bridge and if so what helped you best to relax?

Yes, I don't always have time for the full zhan zhuang sequence. When I am pressed for time, rather than rush through a few stances, I just do Golden Bridge.

Bascially, I do at least 5 minutes. If I have time, I'll do 10. For me, I know that 300 counts is roughly 6 minutes, and 500 is roughly 10. So I just focus on the count. A key factor for me was counting down, not up. This also works with counting the breaths. Try it, and see if it helps somehow.

Also, when it comes to Golden Bridge, you can't force things. So if you can't do 5 minutes, then don't worry. Start at 3, and progress gradually.

[Jordan_LM]

Hey Molly,

I presume you are Lifting the Sky and having a chi flow and short standing meditation before going into Golden Bridge? If not, this helps.

Alternatively, someone in class was having similar problems to you and my Siheng (and instructor) suggested trying the flexible legs exercises before stance training.

Jordan.

[Charles David]

(C'mon you lowly dogs!)

Dear Anthony Siheng,

You wrote:

This is the kind of training that Sifu hopes his students will pursue, but very few actually do.

Talk about cracking the whip.



Still,
Sidai

[Jonny Say]

Dear All

I often just train Golden Bridge or Horse Stance. For me its important to relax as deeply as I can at the start of my training, enter the stance and relax into this to the best of my ability then let go of any cares or distractions.

If Im ever aware that I feel more stiffer than usual then this indicates Im not as deeply in a chi kung state of mind. To which I respond by smiling from the heart and relaxing into my dan tien.

If I get the right state of mind I find I don't worry to much about how relaxed I am, I just do it to the best of my abilities.

All the best

[Molly]

Aw shucks guys. You're all just the bomb diggity.
Indeed Jordan, I always warm up with lifting the sky. As a matter of fact, I had a pleasant qiflow the other day and when I looked back at it later, I remembered my hands up in the air flopping around a bit and it reminded me of you! Thanks for the advice Sifu Anthony. Though I count my breaths instead of numbers, I'll give counting down both ways a try the next time I'm pressed for time. Fortunately, I've plenty of free time today. I've also got a little something else that always helps me get into a good qigong state of mind before any practice- but I'll save that for another thread when I'm feeling particularly bright and shiny! Cheers! I wish you all well this lovely day!
Molly