Performance vs. Attainment vs. Performance

[Andrew]

One school of thought believes that it is not possible to judge the level of attainment of an internal martial arts exponent by observing their performance of a Kung Fu set. We, in Shaolin Wahnam, disagree with this philosophy.

We believe that we can judge the attainment level of such an internal martial artist reasonably well - not only by observing their performance of a Kung Fu set, but also by observing how they conduct themselves in their daily lives --- including how they present their views in writing --- such as in a discussion forum.

I would like to invite other forum members to give their oppinions on this. It would be best if you base your opinions on personal experience as far as possible -- and, if feasible, cite such experiences.

I am sure many will benefit from this discussion.

Andrew

[Andrew]

So how would you / could you judge the level of attainment of an internal martial artist?

Andrew

[Jamie Robson]

Internal Martial Artist Test

Dear Sipak

Excellent post!

So how would you / could you judge the level of attainment of an internal martial artist?

My answer in 2 sections -

Martial Artist - Can he/she defend and attack efficiently?

Internal - Can he/she defend and attack using internal methods?

If the answer is 'Yes' to both, then it could be said their level is 'Advanced'.

Best Wishes to my Swiss Brothers and Sisters

[Simon]

I think if you are talking about internal affairs then you can tell alot from someone's eyes, posture and actions. Look at any Tai Chi magazine and I bet there's at least one picture of someone snarling or tensing shoulders.

The problem is that modern wushu trys to be graceful and have good posture but it does not mean they can fight.

I think you can tell if someone is bad from external appearance but you can not tell if they are good martial artists.

Simon

[Andrew]

Jamie --- would you then limit your judgement of the attainment of an internal martial artist only on his ability to defend himself using "internal methods"? And what are those "internal methods" and how would you see them. Maybe watch your Sifu perform and then comment again.

Simon --- good points. Could you be a bit more specific? When you mention eyes, posture and actions what do you mean?

Everyone --- I noted above

We believe that we can judge the attainment level of .. an internal martial artist reasonably well - not only by observing their performance of a Kung Fu set, but also by observing how they conduct themselves in their daily lives --- including how they present their views in writing --- such as in a discussion forum.

So don't limit your evaluation examples to a Kung Fu set performance ---- although this evaluation in itself could be enough for a very long discussion.

Andrew

[Jonny Say]

Dear Sipac Andrew,

I agree that this is an excellent topic to discuss. I also agree with Simons point about the eyes being a good indication of development, especially in Shen. Just look at pictures of Sigung for example, I think most of us will agree that they are the embodyment of "relaxed and focussed".

I was also thinking about this point when looking at the pictures recently posted by Robin Sisook at :http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthr...7597#post37597

Especially in the picture 1 'Playing the Lute', to me you can feel that Robin Sisook (I presume its Robin using Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan) is far more focussed than his opponent, you can feel the energy around him.

But here it becomes difficult to write about, as Im sure many of my brothers and sisters (and other forum visitors) know what I mean, but will all experience it differently.

Other examples from the internal combat side include "seeing" or "feeling" how much energy someone can channel in a strike, is their chi flowing smoothly in poise patterns, do they feel forceful and have a full dan tien. All these points are quite subjective and 10 people will experience it in 10 different ways.


As far as for this side:

how they conduct themselves in their daily lives --- including how they present their views in writing --- such as in a discussion forum.

Are they genuinely joyful ie this comes in a relaxed way and isn't forced yet remains the majority if not all of the time?

How do they respond in times of stress or conflict - do they remain relaxed and not overpowered by emotions?

Can they present an opinion simply in a way which presents a view clearly and appropriately to listeners?

Are they aware in this present moment ie never trust a Kung Fu master who always trips up, is startled or dull minded!

Are they full with energy and enjoying life - with friends and family, work and play etc.

These are a few things I would look for.

Best wishes

[Andrew]

Excellent observations and comments Jonny.

Now what about everyone else. Is that all there is to see or observe?

Andrew

[Adam Kryder]

Art

Dear Sipac Andrew and all others,

I believe your question has wonderful purpose and my following answer needs not the titles of "internal" or "external", but only knowledge of what it means to participate in Art. Any art for that matter, Martial or other. I am thankful for and will take advantage of this situation to share my complete thoughts and feelings. AKA- "the long version"

The following quotes are taken from a lecture I presented here at Shaanxi University of Science and Technology, China, in the Fall of 2005. It was about making language learning an art. But as you read below Im sure that you will be able to discern that these are universal principles which can be universally applied.

When learning is applied as an art form the practitioner becomes involved in direct experience, stemming from the heart, mind, body and surroundings, the practitioner becomes joined to his or her art form by practice and application. Thus the student or practitioner is given an opportunity to apply and feel the language (art form) even if it is not in the native environment of the subject being studied. Therefore, the classroom and university community (any community) provides an optimal environment and atmosphere for students to shape their own individual use of language (the art form), or any other type of expression and automatically have the opportunity to apply it. Regardless of the positive or negative nature one may create from a given situation or environment.

Upon talking to many of my students both here and when I taught in other parts of China, I have often asked them what they feel is the most difficult part of learning a language. Their response has consistently made reference to the difficulty of expressing oneself. It is in this vein, that after one of the most difficult and frustrating classes I have taught that I sat down to write the poem “To My Students”. I was inspired by my challenges. And now, I present it to you in hope that we may share that inspiration.

------------------------------------------------------------------
10/28/2005

To my students

We join, to accept all tongues as our mother tongues,
We join, to accept all culture as our culture,
We join, to celebrate life.
Need you speak to express your voice?

I challenge you as you challenge me,
To act in all forms of art as a newborn,
Fresh to life and invigorated by the
Infinite presence of opportunity, possibility and
The unknown.

We join in the heart,
As we join in the joy of our work,
Sweat, sadness, pain and humanity.

Let us shape a unified vision,
One of conviction and practice.

Such is grace,
Available with and without,
Yet strengthened by our joining.

Where we join there is no language!
------------------------------------------------------------------

The principles provided in this poem make up what I believe to be the foundation for any art form. I ask you all to please interpret this poem freely. However at this moment I will speak of some of my own interpretations of this poem. That my speaking may serve as guidance.

Amongst other ideas, to me this poem exemplifies what it means to be an artist.

An artist looks at life with new eyes, fully aware of the fleeting nature of the world which surrounds the artist. An artist knows that each moment may be his last and that one must make full use of the opportunities and possibilities that are present in the now. The artist practices this as his or her celebration and joy. Even in the most dire of times, the artist is aware of the possibility of the unexpected and miraculous, confident in his or her individual and/or collective imagination and creativity to provide a solution.

An artist’s work stems from the artist’s heart and merges with the artists joy and humbleness. The artist uses this to express that which to some may be considered painful, and unable to foster growth. The artist knows that as long as one has their breath and life, one can find grace, humility, joy, and that these attainments are equally strengthened by our joining..

An artist practices all that one must embody to walk the path the artist walks, and it is in this practice that all the above-mentioned principles maintain and sustain his or her art. In continuing this practice, the artist eventually arrives at a point where there is no language for the feelings the artist experiences, practices and lives. This is the point of unification, where one arrives at and understanding that in many areas of life, not understanding and challenge are the guides to our inspiration, learning, development and evolution as artists.

Therefore, utilizing and fostering growth in one’s imagination, perception and creativity as an artist, one may undertake any task, whether it be language learning, or any other challenge of life and have the knowledge and tools at his or her disposal, in order to not only succeed, but excel in those same challenges. Thus, with imagination and practice, the artist turns affairs considered commonplace and mundane, such as the tedious responsibilities of daily life, into tools to inspire and develop the artist as a human being.




It is in celebration of the Wahnam community that I practice and share this.
Thank you for your patience in reading my long response.


Best Wishes

Adam Kryder

[Mark Blohm]

Look at any of Sifu Anthony's posts in the "That Was Zen, This is Tao" thread.

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17286&postcount=309

No flowery fists or embroidery kicks there.

Mark

[cnholmes]

At a certain level of achievement, when an internal artist performs a kungfu set, you can sometimes see the spirit shining through. Watch an internal monkey specialist performing well to get a good view of this. This of course ties in with Simons point about the eyes - especially the fierce blazing eyes in tiger sets.

Chris.

[Andrew]

So we have touched on various aspects of the eyes being a reflection of Shen and also how the spirit of a Kung Fu animal can be seen in the eyes of the performer. Next time you have a chance, take a good look at the eyes of an internal Master. See if you can detect the shine and clarity. These are also good indications of the attainment.

But there is more -- much more -- and not only to do with the eyes --- any ideas?

Andrew

[Alex]

In Inside Kungfu Sigung is asked: "How can you tell when a person has internal force?"

Sigung's answer: "A person with internal force has a few telltale signs. His eyes are shining, his voice voluminous, his skin is glowing, his limbs are rounded and his abdomen often resembles a small drum."

[LeeWeiJoo]

Internal Masters radiate an aura that is very subtle, yet powerful. They are all calm, fresh-minded, and always with an open heart. Their aura is so powerful that it affects people around them, increasing their energy levels and making them feel more alive, so to speak. People's hearts also open up more.

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[Andrew]

Excellent! And there is even more

Andrew

[Andy]

Im going to have to regress this discussion a bit cos all these points have mostly been covered already

I have little experience of Kung Fu forms so cannot really comment...as for Internal Force, here are my thoughts:

The first Internal Master I met was Wei Foong at the Intensive Chi Kung Course. She clearly at first sight had good posture, confidence, awareness (I did not know who she was at this point). Once introduced she had a very open personality; happy, on-the-ball and an excellent communicator at the centre of group attention.

The second was Sifu...for all those that have met Sifu (and even those who have only had contact of him through his books) not much has to be said!

The third was Ronan Sexton - again (as with Wei Foong) I did not know who he was at first, but immediately it was obvious that he had 'good energy' - a radiative personality, relaxed confidence, ability to express himself, friendly and down-to-earth.

To conclude: 'Presence', 'Charisma' or 'Personality that fills a room' in common parlance are all exhibited by Internal Masters. Also a deep sense of trustworthiness and personal integrity.
Physically healthy, good posture, relaxed body language, bright shining eyes.
At the risk of over analysing; they are very 'in the moment', and very 'human' i.e. friendly and good humoured.

Andy

PS Most chi kung practitioners I have met seemed to have very dilated pupils. Is this a valid observation or were they all just under bad lighting conditions ? And if valid, why is this?