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  • taoist meditation

    I have read passages like

    "Taoist medition makes extensive use of visualization, whereas Zen meditation avoids it and focuses on the void. According to the Zen teaching on meditation, which will be explained in more detail later, although visualization can lead to very high spiritual levels, it does not lead directly to the highest, ultimate reality. But since many Taoists aim not at the realization of ultimate reality or, in Taoist terms, unity with the Cosmos, but at becoming immortals or even just at longevity in this life, meditation using visualization serves their purposes very well." (pg. 187 of The Art Of Shaolin Kung Fu)

    in many of Sifu Wong Kiew Kit's writings, including other books and parts of his QA series, I had always thought in the manner that it isn't being implied that Taoism simply does not have such visualization methods with the specific aim of attaining the highest attainment. But some pieces of the "That was Zen, this is Tao!" I just read, such as

    I remember Sifu talking about his beloved master, Sigung Ho Fatt Nam. He said that Sigung Ho eventually turned to Zen because of the paradox of Taoist visualization.
    and

    Zen meditation on the void leads outside of the phenomenal realm to the trancendental realm. This is why Sigung Ho switched from Taoism to Zen.
    ,

    gave me the implication that it is thought that Taoism does not have specific methods utilizing visualization that bring one to the transcendental, unconditioned reality, state. So I wanted to write this post for any looking to find information about Taoism, so that such a marvelous portion of it is not thought of to not exist.

    In my private qigong lessons with my Master, he has many times lead me to the the state utilizing Taoist visualization techniques and his ability to mentally bond with me in a way that he can know exactly what I am thinking, how I am thinking, and therefore how to lead my mind to go and see what it is he wants me to see. For instance, one time he started leading me by saying "Go to the place where you were before you were born...". Before this, I had already obtained the ability of traveling time in that I could go to events in the past or events in the future through my previous qigong training with him. But this time this ability manifested differently as his lead had caused me to realize past lives. At the appropriate time, he said (he didn't literally say it out loud, as I was in a state very disconnected from our prescences in the room where we were in, but rather he was able to "say it into my mind" like he usually does when I am in such a state for our practice) "...Go to where after you die". Because of our understanding and relationship, Master and student, he knows precisely how I think and thus he knew exactly what to say to make me think not literally of before I was born or after I die but instead of the intersection, the thing in common of both. This immediately brought me to the transcendental state, the view of reality without eyes to see it through. Because I had experiences of awakenings before this, even while during his public classes or practicing by myself, I knew this was completely different. This was even higher than an awakening. He lead me to this state many other times after this through different visualizations, so that I could have the "knack", or essence, or fundamental skill of inducing it myself, as if it were a basic skill like generating energy flow. My teacher's lineage is Taoist, and so he uses Taoist techniques in his teaching.

    It was not my wish to detail the various visualizations from Taoist qigong that can be used for this, as that would have been silly, as noone could have benefitted from my written instruction, but I wanted to write this because it made me sad to think a part of the tradition that has benefitted me so much would be lost, or that people would not have any evidence to suggest Taoism has such visualization methods.
    "The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong

  • #2
    Dear beggarsu:

    I admire your courage in stirring up this 'hornet's nest' of argument and debate once again...which I innocently began with my creation of the 'That was Zen...This is Tao' Thread. At this point...or ever at any point...I don't think that concerns over the continuation of Taoist Meditation and Visualization Methods are really warranted. Nor are further debates over the superiority of Taoist or Buddhist Methods as vehicles of Spiritual Self-Cultivation.

    In the end...each of us will choose to follow the Spiritual Path which feels right to us personally...whether it is a Buddhist Path...a Taoist Path...a Yogic Path...or some other one...regardless of what others choose. Any opinions regarding the superiority of one Spiritual Path compared to another...from whatever source or 'authority'...are subjective views in any event which can only be verified and validated through 'real time' meditation experience...not by someone else's 'say so'....no matter who they are!

    Additionally...those individuals who have attained the highest levels of Self-Realization in any specific method will no longer be attached to personal discriminations and value judgements about 'my brand is better than your brand'. Their Paths will have long since taken them beyond such petty concerns. In fact...in order to eliminate such partisan debates...some Spiritual Masters and Avataras...such as the late Indian Yoga Guru, Sri Ramakrishna...devoted themselves to several different methods of Spiritual Self-Realization and Meditation...individually for extended periods of time...and reported thereafter that they were able to achieve the highest levels of attainment with each one in turn. He believed that all major methods of long-standing ultimately merge into a 'Universal Religion' at the highest levels of attainment....and that one specific method is not necessarily better than any other...per se.

    My direct personal experience with the practices of several different Spiritual Traditions over the past 45 years...namely Taoist, Tibetan Buddhist, Advaita Yoga Vedanta, and Greek Orthodox Christian...has lead me to agree with Sri Ramakrishna. These are but alternate paths ascending the same mountain...or alternate entrances to the same Reality...any one of which could be used by anyone as a suitable Vehicle of Full Self-Realization!

    But ultimately...these are matters of personal experience and practice. So...retire to your own Inner Santuary to meditate and pray....and may the God of your choice bless you abundantly!
    http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

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    • #3
      Hello SifuStier,

      Thank you very much for your advice. I am sorry if explained that my spiritual practice is better than anothers, as this was not my intention at all . I personally do not think that Taoism is better than any other spiritual practice. I clearly see what has been explained by masters such as Chan Sanfeng when he said "Now I realize all religions are the same!", Ramakrishna, Kabir, and innumerable other masters. And I certainly do not claim to have attained the highest attainment, or even to see something in Taoism that the great master Sifu Ho Fatt Nam did not see. I honestly feel terrible that I conveyed such disrespect. I certainly experienced the things I wrote about, but I am nowhere even near the time when I can enter and not come back. I was simply sadened because of how much such a wonderful tradition has done for me when I read such statements that imply there are't specific visualization (not non-thought Taoist techniques) techniques in the repertoire of Taoist cultivation with the specific aim of the highest attainment.
      "The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong

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      • #4
        Hello again!

        No apologies necessary! You explained your concerns quite nicely. My comments were in reference to opinions expressed in the previous 'That was Zen...This is Tao' Thread...not in reference to your initial post. Sorry for the confusion.
        http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

        Comment


        • #5
          Some nice posts gentlemen. Just a couple of comments from me if you don't mind:

          - Sigung Ho made his decision based on his needs and aspirations at that time in his life(lives) and at his level of development. That he made this choice was not and is not an indication that it is the best nor indeed even the right choice for everyone else. In fact the best path can be completely different for different people ... or even for the same person at different points in their lives.
          - I don't think anyone here has ever said or implied that one method of spiritual cultivation is unltimately better than any other. All true spiritual paths can and do ultimately lead to the same result. This is also agreed upon.

          Andrew
          Sifu Andrew Barnett
          Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

          Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
          Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
          Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

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          • #6
            Dear Beggarsu,
            Could you please tell us more about the Taoist Cultivation you practice as well as perhaps the lineage and history? I find your posts fascinating.

            Thank you,

            Divineshadow
            "Om"

            I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello divineshadow,

              I am sorry, but I would not like to detail my Sifu's lineage as in my experience he does not like casually discussing that with those not one of his students. He emphasizes Qigong Meditation. The methods he teaches for Taoist cultivation vary from student to student. Not all of his students choose to learn Taoist cultivation from him, so he doesn't have many Taoist cultivation students.
              "The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear Beggarsu,

                That's perfectly fine! Thank you for your kind attention.

                Sincerely,

                Divineshadow
                "Om"

                I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi everyone,

                  I also agree that different spiritual paths lead to the same result.

                  I have little knowledge in Taoism. I am really happy to see two Taoism masters in this forum and I would like to take this opportunity to ask one question which I wish to know the answer for a long time.

                  In Taoism, there is a concept of 'wu wei' (non-action). If a practitioner do visualisation, is it contradict with 'wu wei', since visualisation is an action?

                  Best wishes,
                  Julie

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Beggarsu,
                    thanks for your post, it is very interesting. In reply I would like to point out that in the quote from Sigung Wong, he does not deny that you can attain very high levels of spiritual attainment through the use of visualisation. He sais that you can. And if I am not mistaken I am sure that what you have described was an experience of a higher spiriual level attained through the use of visualisation. So then I cannot see a contradiction with Sigung's quote and your experience.
                    What Sigung does say is that using visualisation does not lead directly to the highest ultimate reality. Which I am sure you are not claiming to have attained or experienced.
                    This joins in nicely with Julies question
                    If a practitioner do visualisation, is it contradict with 'wu wei', since visualisation is an action?
                    To quote Hui Neng, the sixth patriach of Zen Buddhism

                    In this method, the fundamental pupose of sitting meditation is neither looking at the mind nor at the void; nor do we say there is no activity. If we say look at the mind, the mind is originally deluded; delusion is like illusion, so there is nothing worthwhile to see. If we say look at the void, mans nature is basically the void; it is because of delusion that the void of the supreme reality is obstucted. Liberated from deluded thought, basic nature is the void. If we do not see the void of our basic nature, but allow thoughts to arise so as to see the void, what we see is a deluded void. Delusion has no real existence, thus we know that what we see is illusory. The void has no physical forms or characteristics. But ordinary people create physical forms and characteristics and say this is the purpose of meditation
                    What Hui Neng is saying here (in relation to the topic at hand) is that the use of visualisation is not wu-wei. This is because once we use our mind to focus on the void or an object, to visualise or to observe itself, thoughts abide.
                    I hope that my post is accurate and usefull to the direction of this thread.
                    Namo Ami Tuo Fo
                    Phil
                    Last edited by Shaolinfist; 18 September 2005, 02:10 AM.

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                    • #11
                      taoist meditation

                      Good day! every one!

                      More advanced you get in Taoism more closer you get on Buddism!

                      What is the nature of the universe? Buddha concluded it is "emptiness," Lao-tzu concluded it is the Tao or the Way! What is the highest ideal state for humanity? Buddhists say it is entry by way of nirvana into the "world of Ultimate Bliss," Taoists say it is cultivated realization of the "higher triple realm" to "attain immortality! One is just as good as the other!

                      For buddism and Taoism and all the religions at avanced level they have a final goal! Too became a God!

                      Thanks bye!

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                      • #12
                        taoist meditation

                        I whrite this litle too fast > For buddism and Taoism and all the religions at avanced level they have a final goal! Too became a God!

                        what do I realy meant that the final goal is too get too a better place after death!

                        Thanks Bye!

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                        • #13
                          taoism meditation

                          Good Day!

                          And of course some ones will, going too became Gods To!
                          Thanks

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                          • #14
                            taoist meditation

                            Hi

                            I Belive it would be nice to put my favorite words of the highest of Zen experience(own cosmic experience) by Master Lu Dong Bin here:

                            In the stillness, there is infinity, freedom and freshness of consciousness, as if intoxicated in a blissful shower, perfect harmony of body and environment, golden shower blossoming, yet everything in perfect quiescence, full moon in the sky, the whole great earth is a realm of brightness and clarity, the mind and body clear and open, golden shower expanding... in the perfect silence everything is fully revealed before the eyes, pure soft whiteness as if opening the eyes in clouds... looking at the body finds that the body is not there, everywhere is pure soft whiteness, the internal and external being transparent- in the book: The Complete book Of Zen by Sifu: Wong Kiew Kit page 15.

                            Ps. in the book I can read that Master Lu Dong Bin experience his own comic Zen experience but I belive that the word should be cosmic and not comic I belive it must be some wrong at the time when the machine write that!


                            I hope you enjoy!

                            /HugoDarien
                            Last edited by HugoDarien; 23 August 2006, 02:29 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hey HugoDarien ,

                              Thanks for posting the wonderful experience of the Immortal Lu Tung Pin. I have read a couple of Sifu Wong's books, but not the one you quote from (Complete Book of Zen). The next one I want to read is his book on Western Paradise. I greatly enjoyed reading the experience of Saint Lu Tung Pin, and I'm sure many others benefited from your post too. Thanks again .

                              Aaron
                              "The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong

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