Dragon Tiger form question?

[Micah Baxt]

Hello all,

I am a new member here and want to convey my utmost respect to GM Wong Kiew Kit as well as the other members of this forum. I purchased GM Wong's book "Introduction to Shaolin Kung fu" and read with interest his illustration of the Dragon-Tiger form. My interest dates back to when I was a teenager(ages 13-16) and studied a style called "Hong Cha" (aka--The Dragon Tiger style). There was as brief mention of the style in a recent issue of Inside Kung Fu. The style was synthesized into GM Johnny Chiuten's(himself a sifu of Dragon Tiger kung fu) relatively new "Pronus Supinus system". I'm getting ahead of myself here.I have read on another kung fu forum(HungKuen.net) that GM Wong is a sifu in an older version of Hung Gar that is..I believe a pre-Wong Fei Hung lineage. Can anyone please tell me if the "dragon tiger set" he illustrates in his book containing the various patterns(ie: Beauty looks into a mirror,etc.) is derived from his lineage of Hung Gar(in other words...is it a Hung Gar set?) or is it from a different version of Kung fu?(for example..Choy Li Fut has a dragon-tiger set as well). Thank you all. I sincerely appreciate your time. Regards.

Respectfully,
Micah Baxt

[Jonny Say]

Dear Micah,

As far as I understand (other Shaolin Wahnam students may correct me), the Dragon and Tiger Set is a synthesis of the key elements of these two styles which Sigung (Grandmaster Wong) learned form his Sifu (my Sitai Gung) Lai Chin Wah. Therefore this style is like the "best of the best" of the Dragon and Tiger!

All the best

[Jordan_LM]

Hi,

As I understand it, the common use of the term "Hung Gar" or "Hoong Ka" is a fairly recent development (the last hundered years or so). Most people trace it back to Hoong Hei Khoon (Hung Xi Guan) , hence the name.

However, Hoong Kei Khoon did not invernt this style of kungfu, and was infact just a master of Southern Shaolin Kungfu which he had learnt at the Shaolin temple before it was burnt to the ground. I'm not sure when or exactly why people would have started to call the system "Hung Gar" instead of Shaolin, it may be traced back to the time when using the term Shaolin could get you into serious trouble with the authorities in China, so a safer name was used, but I'm really not sure about this.

Most people today know the Wong Fei Hung lineage of Hung Gar, which consists of the "Taming the Tiger", "Tiger Crane", and "Iron Wire Boxing" sets. These sets are all Shaolin kungfu sets.

As far as I know Jonnys answer about the Dragon and Tiger set is correct, but just to confuse matters:
Seeing as Sifu's (Grandmaster Wong's) Dragon and Tiger set also consists entirely of Shaolin Kungfu patterns, so you could say it was a Hung Gar set (infact I do believe some of Sigung Lai Chin Wah's students called their school a Hung Gar school), but Sifu Wong prefers to use the original name of Shaolin Kungfu.

Haha - infact having typed all that I've done a quick search and seen that the topic has been dealt with in one of the Q&As : http://shaolin.org/answers/ans99b/nov99-2.html

You might also find this thread interesting and relevant:
http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3087


regards,
Jordan.

[Darryl]

GM Wong Kiew Kit
GM Johnny Chiuten

Dear Micah,

Welcome to the Forum

As you expressed your wish to convey respect, it may be worth noting that abbreviating the title of Grandmaster to GM is not very respectful within Kungfu culture. I am sure that it is only a temporary oversight (and I accept that it is a very common practice on other discussion forums) but in future, please use the full title whenever referring to people of note.

Thank you

[thomas m]

Dragon-Tiger

Hi Micah,

Welcome to the forum!

Whilst I cannot add anything to that which has already been said, you may be interested to see this excellent video clip that Sigung has generously made available, assuming that you have not already seen it (even if you have seen it, I'm sure that you will still find it interesting!).

enjoy:
Dragon-Tiger Set

The caption for this clip highlights that Sitai Gung Lai's linage is traced back to the Venerable Chee Seen. Hoong Ka linages can also be traced back as such, normally through Luk Ah Choy (and interestingly not Hoong Hei Khoon (see Q&A above)).

best,
Tom

[Micah Baxt]

Dear Sifu Darryl,

Thank you sincerely for the correction! As you have correctly surmised, it was indeed an oversight..I certainly would NOT have addressed Grandmaster Wong in an intentional disrespectful manner. My sincere apologies to him as well as anyone else who may have misinterpreted my communication.

All,

Thank you sincerely for your input. Am I to understand that Great-Grandmaster Lai Chin Wah is in fact a sifu of Hung Gar(of the Lam Sai Wing lineage) or of a different branch? Sorry..it's not that I am slow..but rather lineages and so forth can be rather complicated at some point. Thank you.

Micah

[Antonius]

Thank you sincerely for your input. Am I to understand that Great-Grandmaster Lai Chin Wah is in fact a sifu of Hung Gar(of the Lam Sai Wing lineage) or of a different branch?

Not the Lam Sai Wing lineage. It's a different branch. The lineage chart on my website might make things clearer: http://www.zenergyarts.com/picts/Lineage.jpg

[Micah Baxt]

Thanks for all of your replies.

I have learned alot. Perhaps I should re-phrase my question. Before I do..I apologize for my ignorance..I'm not a Hung Gar sifu and my knowledge is somewhat limited. I am aware that the two most well known branches of Hung Gar are the "Tang Fung" lineage and the "Lam Sai Wing" lineage. The forms that I have heard of(I believe these forms are germaine to both branches) are: Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen,(taming the tiger), Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen,(tiger/crane), Sup Ying Kuen(10 pattern fist), and Tiet Sin Kuen(Iron wire fist). Some other forms are: Lau Gar fist set, and Ng Ying Kuen(5 animals/5 shapes fist).

When I say "I don't recall"..it's important to mention motives so as to prevent any misunderstanding. I am not saying directly nor am I implying that Grandmaster Wong's Hung Gar is not authentic..rather I am just noting a difference between Grandmaster Wong's lineage and the Tang Fung/Lam Sai Wing lineages as far as the FORMS in the styles. Nothing more.

I don't recall seeing the "Dragon Tiger" form in either of these lineages..nor do I see it present in the Ha Say Fu(4 tigers red branch of Hung Gar). My revised question then becomes: Is the Dragon Tiger form a set that is unique to Grandmaster Wong's lineage of Hung Gar ONLY and if the answer is "yes", is there a more comprehensive history on it's invention/history,etc. availiable? Thank you most sincerely. Best Wishes.

Respectfully,
Micah Baxt

[Antonius]

"[The Dragon-Tiger] set captures the essentials of what Sifu Wong has learnt from Uncle Righteousness, whose lineage is traced back to the Venerable Chee Seen, the First Patriarch of Southern Shaolin Kungfu."

I can't remember if Sifu learned this set directly from Sigung Lai, or if he learned it from one of his senior brothers, or if he composed the set himself in order to codify what he learned form Sigung Lai. In any case, it's no surprise that you haven't heard of the set. Although Lam Sai Weng's lineage is the most famous, other lineages have other sets that are not well known.

This answer may be of interest (from http://shaolin.org/answers/ans03b/dec03-2.html):

Question 1
I noticed you had a webpage relating to "Mang Fu Ha San” at http://shaolin.org/review/mountain.html. I was wondering if this particular form was a form from your Hung Gar system. I would love to know a little of the history of your form if it is permissible.
David, USA


Answer 1
Your question will be valuable to those interested in the historical background of Hoong Ka Kungfu. Yes, you are right. Many of the patterns in the set “Mag Fu Ha San”, which means “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain”, are taken from my Hoong Ka system, although we usually refer to our Hoong Ka system as Southern Shaolin.

The most famous lineage of the Hoong Ka or Hung Gar system today is that from the great kungfu master Wong Fei Hoong, who lived from 1847 to 1924, which was at the end of the Qing Dynasty and the beginning of the Republican period in China. But both Wong Fei Hoong and his successor Lam Sai Weng did not refer to their kungfu as Hoong Ka; they called it Shaolin.

It is also interesting to note that while all Hoong Ka exponents acknowledge that their system is called Hoong Ka after the great Shaolin master Hoong Hei Khoon, Wong Fei Hoong’s lineage leads back not to Hoong Hei Khoon but to another great Shaolin master Loh Ah Choi. Hoong Hei Khoon was the senior classmate of Loh Ah Choi under the Venerable Chee Seen, the abbot of the southern Shaolin Monastery at Nine Lotus Mountain in Fujian, and First Patriarch of Southern Shaolin Kungfu.

This fact that the source of Wong Fei Hoong’s lineage was Loh Ah Choi and not Hoong Hei Khoon, does not negate the claim by exponents of his lineage that their system is Hoong Ka, because the art practiced by Hoong Hei Khoon and Loh Ah Choi was the same.

As the three famous kungfu sets of Wong Fei Hoong were “Taming the Tiger”, “Tiger-Craane” and “Iron-Wire”, many people thought these were the only orthodox Hoong Ka sets. This is not so. When I was learning kungfu from Uncle Righteousness in Penang (in Malaysia) in the 1950s, there was a famous Hoong Ka master named Ng Siew Hoong, who was respectfully known as Hoong Pak, or “Elderly Uncle Hoong”. His famous Hoong Ka sets were “Four Gates” and “Tiger Claws”.

In the 1960s I heard of an old and much respected Hoong Ka master (whose name I cannot remember) in a remote part of Malaysia. His kungfu sets were “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain”, “Night Tiger Emerges from Forest” and “Essence of Shaolin”.

I also learned “Four Gates” from my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, and “Essence of Shaolin” from my sifu, Uncle Righteousness. My “Four Gates” is different from that taught by Elderly Uncle Hoong, but my “Essence of Shaolin” is the same as that taught by the other old Hoong Ka master, though there was no connection between that old master and Uncle Righteousness. “Four Gates” is reputed to be the fundamental set taught at the open square in the southern Shaolin Monastery, and “Essence of Shaolin” was the most advanced set taught to selected disciples.

Nevertheless, the “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” (Mang Fu Ha San) shown in my webpage is not a classical set passed down by masters; it is a set consisting of various combat sequences composed by me. I choose the name “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” because it expresses well the philosophy, spirit and skills embodied in this set where the Single Tiger Claw and the Double Tiger Claws are used in qin-na (gripping) techniques.

It may be of interest to note that in our Shaolin Wahnam school, we do not learn any classical sets in our basic training programme, which consists of 12 levels of about 3 or 4 years of regular training, Kungfu sets like “Fierce Tiger Speeds Through Valley” and “Happy Bird Hops up Branch” are a result of our combat sequence training.

Although “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain” is not at our basic stage but at our intermediate stage of training, it is also a result of our sparring practice. After this, we move to classical sets like “Four Gates”, “Five Animals”, “Tiger-Crane” and “Dragon and Tiger” at our intermediate stage, and to other classical sets like “Eighteen Lohans”, “Flower Set” and “Dragon’s Strength” at our advanced stage. At whatever stages, set practice is a means, and not an end, of our kungfu training.