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The Monkey "God"

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  • #16
    WOW! Very nice comments Darryl Sihing!

    Somehow I came to a very similar answer as you did......


    I am also very thankful and honored to have him as our Sitaigung.

    Keep your opinions comming, it's interessting!

    Respectfully

    Roland
    "From formless to form, from form to formless"

    26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
    Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

    Website: www.enerqi.ch

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    • #17
      Delighted

      Indeed, we are all very lucky.

      Last edited by Charles David; 25 March 2005, 03:32 AM.
      Charles David Chalmers
      Brunei Darussalam

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      • #18
        Any scholars among us?

        Does anyone know if the Chinese legend of the monkey god is about the character called Hanuman from the ancient Indian epic the Ramayana? From what I can tell they seem to be the same but if somebody knows more than I do I would appreciate the info.

        Mike
        from the ♥

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        • #19
          This is a description I found of Hanuman on the web. http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/southasia...oryhanuman.htm
          He seems very much like the monkey god, in fact the Chinese story might even have been inspired by the older Indian epic but this is just speculation.
          from the ♥

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          • #20
            Shaolin mike,
            I reached a similar conclusion myself sometime ago. However since most people don't believe there is a Sun Wu Kong, Monkey King, (they all assume he is a fictional character) to the best of my knowledge Sifu Wong is the only one to say so. Maybe you should ask him?

            Best,

            Ray Chang
            "Om"

            I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present

            Comment


            • #21
              clear as mud

              Not trying to muddy the waters, but actually to confirm the existence of the Monkey God, Sun Wu Kong, by adding some additional "mythology".

              Ou Wen Wei's book, The Path of Life describes the first appearance of Sun Wu Kong as the result of Pan Gu needing someone to combat evil in a previous human world. At that time, deities, humans, and devils were in turmoil and there needed a champion to right the wrongs and bring them all to their senses.

              Pan Gu removed a hair from his head, which floated to the earth, and was transformed into Sun Wu Kong, who began battling the corrupt minions of heaven and hell alike, triumphing by force of arms over all. In fact, he used an iron bar as thick as a rice bowl to fight the final group of deities and heavenly soldiers sent to subdue him. Sun Wu Kong's efforts finally convinced the rulers of heaven to change their ways and no longer pursue selfishness and evil.

              According to the book, ours is the third human world, two removed from the first Sun Wu Kong. I tend to think many of our legends are a mixture of different worlds and times, but have been passed down as having occurred all sequentially during this world's history. For example, don't some of you find stories of The Jade Emperor a bit troubling, that the ruler of heaven sometimes seemed so conceited and wrapped up in his own glory instead of helping some like the Eight Taoist Immortals do more to assist humans?

              Perhaps there has been more than one Jade Emperor, more than one Sun Wu Kong, etc., which may explain some of the variations in history or mythology, however you classify it.

              Best wishes,
              Michael
              Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
              Take frankness and friendliness to heart.

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              • #22
                Yourney to the West

                Hi there,
                Dear Michael: Many thanks for sharing this story. Quite interessting indeed.

                I have recently finished reading the story of Tripitaka who was sent out to bring the Wholy writings back to China.
                The Monkey Kind Sun Wu Kong in this story was actually made out of a rock. This rock was, since the creation of the world, processed by the pure essences of heaven, the sent of the earth, the power of the sun and the grace of the moon. Until it was magically impregnated one day and the rock disrupted and a egg of stone was born. Fertilised by the wind this egg developed into a Monkey of stone, completed with body and limbs.

                Actually I do not know if there were more Monkey god's before. This is certainly something to ask Sifu. So, I'll write it into my book to ask Sifu once I will meet him next time.

                What is interessting about the Monkey God out of this story is that he reached complete enlightment and got Buddhahood. Sifu told me that sometimes the Buddha, is appearing back in the body of the Monkey God, as a kind of Botisatwa.

                Also quite interssting to know is the fact, that the Monkey god, or the great sage equal to heaven, as he wanted to be known as, has had Great respect for Quan Yin. I am not quite sure about but I have also meant to hear that he even has become a disciple of her. This would seem logical, as he needed some heavenly assistance who would take care of him, as he was not always easy to handle

                Warmest regards,

                Roland
                "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                Website: www.enerqi.ch

                Comment


                • #23
                  The story Luo Lang mentioned is also the version I heard as thats how the intro of the Monkey! TV show used to start.
                  from the ♥

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                  • #24
                    wondering if...

                    The story that Roland told about the creation of the Monkey King is relevant to our current human world, and is the accepted and accurate version. What I'm talking about is the existence of previous human worlds with deities who have the same names as our current ones, and the existence of these previous deities has had some influence on our current history, stories, legends, and mythology.

                    I think Ou Wen Wei's book and description of a previous Monkey King and Jade Emperor are unique in world literature; they are not derived from any existing written or human verbal sources, and to me it explains why our current stories about deities are so convoluted.

                    For example, Monkey King 1 was created by Pan Gu during the existence of Earth 1, the first of three human worlds in this universe. There was also a Jade Emperor 1, and Monkey King 1 was created from one of Pan Gu's hairs in order to fight evil doers of Earth 1, which actually included Jade Emperor 1, who had developed some bad habits. After Monkey King 1 hit Jade Emperor 1 over the head with an iron bar, Jade Emperor 1 realized the error of his ways and reformed all his evil habits.

                    My purpose for even bringing this up is simply to add a little flavor to the discussion, and also to show how complex our history actually is, especially in comparison to the relatively small amount of information we have about our various deities.

                    Do you ever wonder how people know what their various deities look like? There are sometimes very consistent images of deities within a culture over a lengthy time period, and then there are great differences in visual depictions during relatively short periods. How does someone originally learn what a deity looks like, and then why the disparity in later versions?

                    Michael
                    Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
                    Take frankness and friendliness to heart.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Heavenly dimension

                      Dear Michael,
                      Many thanks for your interessting contribution. I was thinking about a particular thing you have mentioned in your previous post:

                      For example, don't some of you find stories of The Jade Emperor a bit troubling, that the ruler of heaven sometimes seemed so conceited and wrapped up in his own glory instead of helping some like the Eight Taoist Immortals do more to assist humans?
                      I agree, sometimes people may wonder about some decissions which have been made by the Jade Emperor. I mean he sent out the worst Demons to fight against the Monkey King, or the story you mentioned, a kind of refusing help to the eight Immortals.
                      The Jade Emperor is the ruler of heaven, of both Demons and God's. So, the Jade Emperor is crossbench. Even if he would like, he also is not allowed to work against the wheel of life, as he also underlies Supreme reality. Some may not agree with some decisions, but that is, in my opinion part of the cosmic dimension. Decisions on this level are certainly not made by brain, rather by mind.

                      I am also not happy with the fact, that everyday people get killed or die because they don't have food and water. I could also say, what kind of God is this, letting so many people die, whereas others live in wealth.
                      But, what I have learnt out of my practice is to accept some facts, because I am not on the level to understand the Cosmic sense out of this. What I can do is beeing as compassionated as possible and praying for others who are not that lucky as I am, we are.

                      Respectfully,

                      Roland
                      "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                      26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                      Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                      Website: www.enerqi.ch

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi all,
                        About 10 years late

                        What do you think of the comparison between the monkey god with other beings such as loki from the norse pantheon and lucifer from the christian bible? I feel they all fill the "trickster" and "crossroads" archtype.

                        Capable of extreme good, and extreme evil, they represent the choices we can make. Monkey god did go against heaven and buddha, but he brought back the treasures. Loki was son of odin, but caused ragnarok. The christian lucifer was the highest ranking angel turned devil.

                        Its like every culture acknowledged and personified our ability to choose which path we take, hence the crossroads symbology.
                        Whether they are archetypes of the human psyche, or separate real beings, or a single being known to various cultures by various names I do not know, but I think it's an interesting idea.

                        Daniel

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                        • #27
                          Hey Daniel

                          Ooooh, I really like these kinds of discussions . And yes, it’s really awesome to read a discussion that happened 11 years ago! Ah, the wonders of technology!

                          "Its like every culture acknowledged and personified our ability to choose which path we take, hence the crossroads symbology.
                          Whether they are archetypes of the human psyche, or separate real beings, or a single being known to various cultures by various names I do not know, but I think it's an interesting idea."


                          Your post caught me in a pretty talkative mood with too much time on my hands, so the general nature of the above exploded into a 2-page "essay", so maybe I'm gonna hold off on the that for now. I wrote about the concept of archetypes and my own personal beliefs and yadayada, which has no place here, so I'm going to respond strictly to your question about comparing The Great Sage, Loki and Lucifer. Some people might say that these kinds of discussions are ultimately unnecessary, depending on their own beliefs about the bigger picture surrounding us, but I think it's fun! So the folks who might feel like this discussion won't be going anywhere: You're probably right, but please let us have some fun discussing this !


                          HERE WE GO!


                          “What do you think of the comparison between the monkey god with other beings such as loki from the norse pantheon and lucifer from the christian bible? I feel they all fill the "trickster" and "crossroads" archtype.

                          Capable of extreme good, and extreme evil, they represent the choices we can make. Monkey god did go against heaven and buddha, but he brought back the treasures. Loki was son of odin, but caused ragnarok. The christian lucifer was the highest ranking angel turned devil.”


                          Just a small remark, which is actually simply a personal belief, is that Lucifer wasn’t the highest ranking angel, but Metatron was/is. But eeeh, that’s a matter of personal belief/perception, not actual knowledge. So for argument’s sake, Lucifer is the highest angel ! That being said, the three you mentioned above are each quite different and can’t really BE compared, in my opinion. Even just considering their “races” or state of being, a comparison is difficult. Loki is a major deity, The Great Sage I can’t really fit in anywhere (oh the irony!), but pretty high up in ranking, and Lucifer is an Angel with a side job.

                          Anyway, here’s how I see it:


                          DISCLAIMER: First off, I have nothing but the highest respect for all the entities mentioned in this post and for what they represent to other people (including me). BUT: All elaborations below are only semi-serious, because I like to think I’m funny. Also, this is just me touching on some points, because if I went into even more detail about my various theories/beliefs and things I’ve read, I’d fry my own brain. Also, I’m a complete amateur in everything and don’t yet aspire to be anything else. ANY input from people who actually DO know something about the things I blabber on about, pleeease enlighten me! I love to learn about this kind of stuff, other opinions are highly appreciated!


                          Similarities/Differences:

                          Loki and the The Great Sage: Both seem to be of a somewhat trickster-y nature, true. But I like to believe that The Great Sage isn’t anymore, as he grew and evolved as well! Any Sage will become “wise” eventually, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking. Also, Loki didn't seem to be truly out for power, titles and fame the same way The Great Sage was in his “earlier” days, maybe because Loki was already part of the Pantheon. Maybe Loki just wanted to wreak havoc for havoc’s sake and bring some life and diversity into the ehum, quite disturbing Pantheon that is the Norse Mythology. And hey, maybe Loki is constantly facepalming because we’re still depicting him as a trickster-of-doom, when all he had was a simple, rebellious phase. Who doesn’t have those?

                          The ensuing Mayhem both of them caused can’t be quite compared either, because Loki initiated the first omen of the APOCALYPSE (dun dun duuuun) whereas The Great Sage started a war that didn’t lead up to the End of the World. He DID get a punishment that, initially, seems much more comparable to Lucifer. You know, being zen-slapped by the Buddha and being imprisoned for hundreds of years; compared to Lucifer being demoted from Highest Angel to a literal hell spawn. But maybe that’s temporary, too, just like with the Great Sage! Maybe Lucifer is out of Hell and roaming about with a Prophet, having a jolly old time. Who knows!

                          Also, I don’t think either of them (talking about Loki again now) were/are “extremely evil”. There was ego, recklessness and stupidity involved, nobody is safe from that. Mistakes were made, but The Great Sage always had somewhat of a goal and at least a “reason”, even though a quite childish one. But he never killed just for killing’s sake. At least that’s my limited understanding.

                          Loki/Lucifer: Loki was never punished by his father the same way Lucifer was, according to the general understanding of the respective mythologies. To be honest, I see no similarities here at all, except maybe that both of them probably have some major Daddy-issues by now. Lucifer rebelled against God, apparently because he didn’t want to accept that he should care for/bow down to/love puny humans. I actually get his viewpoint really well, to be honest. Having this much power and then get this kind of "senseless" task? Looking at the decline of humanity when considering the different Eons of existence and their eventual end/rebirth, it does seem like a waste of time. Maybe Lucifer isn’t a huge fan of Spring cleaning. That’s probably it, yes.

                          The Great Sage / Lucifer:
                          As I mentioned above, the punishment could be called somewhat similar, BUT: The Great Sage redeemed himself (and then some) and did many wonderful things, like subjecting our Sitaigung to experiences he didn’t wan-- I MEAN subjected our Sitaigung to experiences he accepted gracefully . I meant to say that, yup.

                          But a little bit more seriously: I don’t think The Great Sage and Lucifer could ever be compared or even should. I never considered Lucifer to be any sort of trickster. Deceitful, maybe, but not a trickster by definition.
                          I’d be interested to read how you define “extreme good/evil”. Lucifer being thrown out of Heaven and all the actions leading up to it (that we don’t know anything about) don’t seem to me as if they were “extremely evil”. He had his reasons for rebelling, I suppose. Nobody knows, certainly not me. It all happened even before the Snake showed up (which I theorize was Lilith, but that’s beside the point).

                          BUT, if we assume that a lot of terrible things today are being influenced by “demonic activity” and if said demonic activity actually DOES come from Lucifer as the source, then I would call that evil. Specific examples would include the likes of mass murderes, serial/spree killers, corrupt people with high power, rapists, child molesters etc… THAT’s what I would call extreme evil. I’m using this example because the Christian Mythology is wildly popular and embedded into our consciousness and mainstream media much more than any other mythology. And many things that happened since I was able to follow the news can’t be explained unless you believe that there was a supernatural, malicious influence. But again, this is a personal belief, it truly is. I have no factual evidence to claim these kinds of things, none at all. I just have “a feeling” and some minor spiritual experiences, I’d like to think.

                          But again, this is a general opinion and not really about The Great Sage anymore, so if we’re going to discuss about these kinds of things, maybe a different thread would be appropriate.

                          But that's it for now anyway! I would LOVE if somebody could share their thoughts about The Great Sage who actually knows what he/she is talking about (I’m looking at you, Sifu )!
                          And Daniel, please tell me you're still alive after I clobbered you to death with a wall of text...

                          My fingertips are ON FIRE,
                          Fabienne


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                          • #28
                            Hi fabienne!

                            Haha definitely still alive. Great post
                            "But maybe that’s temporary, too, just like with the Great Sage! Maybe Lucifer is out of Hell and roaming about with a Prophet, having a jolly old time. Who knows!"

                            Never thought of that!

                            Well, loki and lucifer: he was bound up by the other gods n left with poison dripping on his head until the time of ragnarok. Lucifer was put in hell until the end times? Who knows, maybe the chinese/hindus had a more happily ever after approach to life

                            I just love comparing deities. I prefer looking at the overall roles they played in their pantheons/cultures, rather than the specific events in their stories. For example, off topic, but i believe goddess kuan yin could also be goddess brighd, goddess athena/aphrodite, archangel gabriel/raphael, goddess yemoja, mother mary, etc.

                            Its mostly academic fun

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                            • #29
                              Fun stories, and my take on their differences are that Lucifer in the christian pantheon is the yin to God's yang. Loki in the Norse pantheon serves some of the same function but to a lesser degree, the Gods in the Norse sagas are a lot more human then say God and Lucifer in Christianity who are more set up as cosmic opposing constants. Thus the Norse Gods are as characters more complex, prone to act as beings trapped in flesh and feelings will.

                              Being Norwegian myself, I've read a bit of the Norse mythology and there are some great stories and legends. For example one long verse called "Håvamål", translates into "The high's speech" is worth a read. It is a monologue by Odin advising man on how to walk well on the road of life. Much of it despite being well over a thousand years old is just as good advice today, as true wisdom is timeless. I think it is fair to compare it's style to Sun Tzu's "The art of war" although written in a lighter tone and with a lot of underlying humor. For example one verse translates into "Better load you can't carry up the hill then wisdom and wit, with worse provisions you cannot travel then drunk on mead."

                              I think Loki is more similar to the Monkey God then Lucifer - they both appear a lot in myths and stories as both characters and metaphors. While in Christianity and Norse mythology the Gods are divine and removed, although the Norse Gods much less so, the Monkey God and similar characters like the eight immortals are even closer to humans - some of the characters are not merely made up, they lived as humans in China long ago.

                              For example the eight immortals and other historical figures that have since been deified, like Guan Yu.
                              When one door closes, another one opens.

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