Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do we need to know which meridian we are activating?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do we need to know which meridian we are activating?

    Hello Everybody,

    In the Taijiquan section of the forum, Zhang has raised some very interesting points concerning the activation of specific meridian (points) using specific Taijiquan patterns (postures) and the necessitiy of training the patterns a specific number of times in a specific order. Apart from the fact that this leads us out of the orginal topic of the thread, I feel that it is important enough to start a new thread which I invite all members to contribute to.

    Before I start, I’d like to say how happy I am that we have members like Zhang who are kind enough to pass on knowledge that they have aquired from sources inaccesible to many of us. That said, students of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute are so incredibly lucky to have a Sifu or Sigung who is generous enough to transmit the form, force training, combat applications and philosophy of our beloved arts.

    Later, masters formalised the practice and dictated that x number of meridians should be "exercised" y times. So, we have the 108 which works on the heart meridian no less that 15 times.
    I disagree with the concept that we need to follow a fixed order of patterns and that we need to know which meridians each pattern works on in order to gain the best benefits that Taijiquan has to offer. I have several reasons for this including the very orgins of the patterns themselves, the experience of hundreds if not thousands of practitioners of Shaolin Cosmos Qigong and my faith in the moral integrity of Sifu.


    Let me add even more confusion - in the beginning, there were no fixed number of movements.
    Zhang has already made one of my points for me in saying that in the beginning there were no fixed number of movements. Does that mean that those training Taijiquan before it was “formalised” (nice word) were not reaping the benefits of their training?

    Also, it is very important to remember that the patterns came from actual fighting experience. Their origin lies not in a search for an efficient way to work on meridians but much more the desire to obtain the best advantages in combat while minimising innate weaknesses. I’m not just talking about the physical level here. Patterns that obstruct energy flow or prevent the practitioner from cultivating and using internal force would come under the category of having innate weaknesses. A simple example of this is the position of the front foot in Bow-Arrow stance.

    Those postures that end with a palm strike to the centre, like Repulse Monkey, Single Whip and Brush Knee are especially important because they work on key meridian points.
    Yes they do but we don’t have to worry about that when we are training. If we train the patterns correctly and make sure that we enjoy our qi flow and standing mediation, all will be well. How can I be so sure of this?

    Let’s take a moment to think about all the practitioners of Shaolin Cosmos Qigong. Do they know which meridians they are working on when they train Lifting the Sky? Some may have a rough idea but the vast majority simply (directly and effectively) enjoy their training and also the amazing benefits that come from opening the Heart and letting go.

    There is of course a lot to be said for specific training. That’s why we have so many wonderful tools in our Qigong repertoire but I think that many will agree with me when I say that one of our very best tools for overcoming illness is Self Manifested Qi Flow. If a practitioner takes the time and effort to worry about which meridians she is going to work on, she will never be able to reap the benefits of this exercise.

    If we remember that Taijiquan is also Qigong it is not too hard to realise that we don’t need to know exactly which meridian we are working on when we train Single Whip as long as we train it correctly.

    Finally, I’d like to mention that I simply do not believe that Sifu would leave out an important element in his students’ training or that he would allow us to teach Wahnam Taijiquan, Shaolinquan and Shaolin Cosmos Qigong without having equipped us with the skills and knowledge to teach the essence of these arts. Fortunately, the inspiring results of my brothers and sisters clearly show that we are on the right track.

    Just a small anecdote to finish this post. Personally I love the 108-patterns set and I train it regularly. Sifu was kind enough to teach it to those of us who were invited to the special Taijiquan course for instructors held in Sungai Petani in July 2002. I don’t think that Sifu attaches too much importance to it though because he taught us the whole set in 3 hours.

    Enjoy your training
    Last edited by Jeffrey Segal; 10 October 2004, 04:16 AM.
    Jeffrey Segal

  • #2
    That's a very interesting post Jeff ... and very well formulated. The starting thread was about Taijiquan and you have already made the connection to Chi Kung. Shaolin Kung Fu should maybe also be added into the equation. Or maybe all internal styles of Kung Fu.

    To further comment at the moment would probably be suprefluous as your comments regarding Taijiquan cover pretty much Shaolin Kunf Fu too.

    Andrew
    Sifu Andrew Barnett
    Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

    Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
    Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
    Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting thread

      Comment


      • #4
        "Chi knows best where to flow" and "Restoring yin yang harmonious flow" springs to mind when I considering if I should know which meridians I am activating.

        "All things being equal" also springs to mind, but in a different way. Things aren't usually equal.

        Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung has quite a few different exercises, not just one. Shaolin Kung Fu has different applications for a situation. Zen has different applications. There for there are different ways to approach something. Probably because they are more direct and effective depending on that persons needs?

        The meridians were discovered intuitively (you have your own experience on this ) This knowledge has been very useful and has created different arts that have arisen from the knowledge, there for it does have its uses.

        Personally I have no knowledge of the meridian system, but I believe the level at which the Shaolin Arts have been passed onto me by Sifu means I don't have to know about them. For those that do, Sifu is able to teach the same Arts at the same level but to add the meridian knowledge. If its part of Sifu's instruction, then its important, if not, dont worry.

        Sifu has different ways to deliver his Arts depending on whom he's teaching. He has said that he explains 'Chi' quite differently to westerners compared to Chinese.

        Other systems like the five elemental process, yin & yang have their uses. I guess its all different approachs to the same end. No harm in looking around though, we are lucky we have a Sifu who actively encourages to train with other masters, and shows interest at knowledge we may be able to give to him.

        Its a yes and no answer, .

        I'd be interested to know what results are gained from practicing and testing Tai Chi with meridian applications.
        Michael Durkin
        Shaolin Wahnam England - Manchester
        www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Before I go on, perhaps I should just preface this post with my "bibliography". I have mentioned my references before but I will do so again, lest I be accused of plagarism.

          In English - Erle's Montaigue's website at www.taijiworld.com, and his book "Tai Chi". I would add that long before I read his works, I was aware of the effect of Taiji postures on the meridians, but his exposition in English is really first-class.

          In Chinese - "The System of Meridians in Chen Taijiquan". I will be putting up some of this stuff in the Chinese thread under "Discussions in other languages".

          Private teaching materials from Nam Wah Institute (note the interesting parallel, it is Wah Nam in reverse, and the Chinese words are exactly the same, only the order is different).

          I am enjoying the discussions from the Wahnam Taijiquan point of view, which I have sadly not experienced yet, except for the 15-minute session Sifu gave to me (that was one great session, because hitherto I had not known what it was like to do Taiji in qi flow).

          Well, I am not saying that one must visualise the meridians when performing the form. In fact, it would be detrimental to do so. My point is that the forms should be respected as they are. It is OK to change them but only if one knows why the forms are arranged the way they are. It would be wrong and disrespectful to add to or subtract the patterns for the sake of convenience, or thinking one is smarter than the generations of masters before.

          Yang Luchan's original form was 83 postures, according to my instructor and finally formalised into 108 by Yang Chengfu. But Yang Chengfu knew what he was doing. In fact, he was aware that he was changing the focus of some of his grandfather's art by the addition or subtraction of certain movements, and he did so deliberately. He knew the effect of each change he was making. What is terrible is how some so-called masters would change the form not to adapt it to their students' ability but do so to create a new style for their own ego.

          While we should not visualise the meridians in practice, we should know the meaning of each postures. Antonious provided a most illuminating explanation of the mechanics of Lifting the Sky. While I only focus on the actual practice, knowing how "it" works has enhanced my learning on an academic and I believe a sub-conscious level (perhaps in reinforcing my belief that Lifting the Sky is a truly great pattern).

          Advancing the argument, knowing "intellectual" details like this would allow us to give better answers to questions about our art, and also expand our own understanding. For the beginner (like me) and in practice itself, we throw out all irrelevant thoughts like "how this works", "why does it work?" etc. But to be able to answer questions like Sifu (whom we all aspire to be like) and teach like him, we need to amass such knowledge that can only augment our practical experience. I would hence respectfully disagree that "we don’t need to know exactly which meridian we are working on when we train Single Whip as long as we train it correctly". We do, but after the training.

          I am sure Sifu did not leave out this area without a reason. As I have not partaken of any of the Kungfu courses, I am in not position to comment. But i have found that Sifu gives me the right info at the right time, sometimes in person, sometimes over an email (which can amazingly just provide that spark of enlightenment).

          "Does that mean that those training Taijiquan before it was “formalised” (nice word) were not reaping the benefits of their training?"

          Well, no, but formalisation makes learning and practice easier. It is just like Shaolinquan before it was taught systematically at the Temple. Taijiquan is just following the same steps and procedures done in Shaolinsi hundreds of year before. If each student did his Taiji Changquan any way he liked, it would be hard to teach more than one student at a time. It would be the true master to disciple transmission of old, which means Taiji would have been in danger of dying out.

          "Also, it is very important to remember that the patterns came from actual fighting experience. Their origin lies not in a search for an efficient way to work on meridians but much more the desire to obtain the best advantages in combat while minimising innate weaknesses. "

          Agreed, of course. But as I mentioned, not all the forms are there for combat or from combat. At the risk of sounding like a CD on repeat mode (how things have changed, we used to say "a broken gramaphone", if anyone still remembers those antiques), the postures are there for force, cultivation of qi, health as well as combat application. Unlike Shaolinquan, Taijiquan has only one set form (a couple more for specialised uses), so it is a sort of potpurri. Shaolin has Iron-Wire for force, Dragon-Tiger for combat, and other sets for specific purposes.

          I apologise if I seem like I am lecturing or preaching. I am not. I must say for the record that I am a true beginner and what I have written here are what I have gleaned from masters. My own limited practical experience is that I practice without thinking of where the qi is going, following the wuwei principle, but I have noticed a more flowing character in my movements, perhaps because I know in my heart what the form is doing.
          百德以孝为先
          Persevere in correct practice

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Zhang Wuji

            While we should not visualise the meridians in practice, we should know the meaning of each postures. Antonious provided a most illuminating explanation of the mechanics of Lifting the Sky. While I only focus on the actual practice, knowing how "it" works has enhanced my learning on an academic and I believe a sub-conscious level (perhaps in reinforcing my belief that Lifting the Sky is a truly great pattern).
            Hi,
            Does anyone still remember the Antonious explanation of the mechanics of lifting the sky? I did a search at the forum for "lifting the sky" and ended up with 262 hits

            Thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Here it is, from "Following Instructions" in "Chi Kung Experiences":

              I have studied several styles of Qigong over the years. If I had to pick a single dynamic Qigong exercise as the all-around best, I would choose Lifting The Sky without even thinking twice. I think Sifu and most of my seniors would agree with me on this.

              To suggest that this exercise is "not qigong" or that it locks the joints illustrates not only a lack of understanding, but an unfortunate desire to place blame on something in spite of obvious, established evidence to the contrary. Lifting The Sky is most definitely Qigong, arguably even the quintessential example of dynamic Qigong. The number of people worldwide and throughout history who have benefitted from variations of this exercise can be counted in the millions.

              Compared to some Taoist Qigong, Lifting The Sky has more "tension," mainly in the bent wrists, but this "tension" is intentional and important. Why do we bend the wrists? Fully understanding how and why a particular Qigong pattern works is something best left to the masters, but the rest of us can look at a few things.

              The bent wrists, used in many Qigong patterns in many styles, act as a kind of "pump" for the meridians running up and down both arms. Combined with the downward-upward movement of the neck (another "pump"), the upward lengthening of the spine, the coordinated breathing, and the meditative intentions, you have an ingenius exercise that can benefit both beginner and master alike.

              After practicing this exercise for 7 years, it's profundity still continues to amaze me on a daily basis. I attribute much of my success in Qigong to this exercise.
              百德以孝为先
              Persevere in correct practice

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Wuji.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Several questions seem to be getting asked & answered here.

                  "Do we need to know which meridian we are activating?"

                  As a rule, I would say no

                  "Is it beneficial to have knowledge of the meridian/channel structure?"

                  As a rule, I would say yes

                  "Is a mixture of academic and practical understanding healthy?"

                  All things being equal, I would say yes

                  "Is it relevant?"

                  Ah, the point of the thread

                  Personally, I think (aha) that thinking too much is not in a student's best interests. I also think that not thinking enough is also not in a students best interests. I recently read a book that mentioned "stillness in motion" as a requirement to getting the best results from your internal practice. I agreed with this, then had to read through three pages of the author pondering what was meant by "stillness in motion". While the addittional information may have seemed usueful (and no doubt, was of some use to many people), academic understanding on its own is not very beneficial.

                  Knowing that 'x' will influence 'y' will not help if you still don't have 'z'. If you do have 'z' and you do 'a', 'b' and 'c' correctly, then you will get first hand information regarding 'x' and 'y'. In Shaolin Kungfu, one of the philosophies is "Move last, arrive first".

                  As to the influence on changing form, this seems to be where 'common sense' comes in. Continuing the Lifting The Sky example, someone may decide that since they should be relaxed when performing the pattern, it would be beneficial to relax their wrists more by bending them less - it's common sense after all. The intellectual mind would agree fully, the logic would stand up to reason and off you go. You still continue to get benefits, your wrists are nice and relaxed - bingo, no loss, big gain, congratulations (and in case this turns into a 'form' sub-topic, I already agree that form is shapeless and that there are optimum factors to consider). Unfortunately, the wrist position is there for a reason. 'Common sense' relies on what you already know - if you don't know, then common sense doesn't even consider it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Very interesting discussion!

                    I had a long and passionate debate with a good friend yesterday, when he asked me more about "what the hell was this Qigong thing all about?"
                    For the record: we have the same background, i.e we have done the same studies in France, 5 years of applied mathematics and general science (to quite a high level - yes, I am a clever boy )
                    So we have the same kind of education, and use to have the same "frame of mind" when it comes to explaining things.

                    Which is why he was very surprised to see me going all the way into this bizarre gentle gymnastic, and travelling to Malaysia, Spain, or Scotland to see this chinese guru (well, that was his view)

                    I started explaining the main philosophy and principles, while being careful to present it in a suitable way (i.e I didn't start talking about absolute reality ). I roughly described the main chinese paradigm, and stressed the fact that it was very different from western concepts. So I obviously came to the meridians, and how it was related to Qigong.

                    At this point he started asking lots of questions about the meridians, what it was exactly, how it could be explained and described, what it would be in western terms, etc... My obvious answer was
                    "I have no idea, but:
                    1 - they exist, because I've experienced it first hand,
                    2 - it works, because I've experienced it first hand,
                    3 - I don't really need to know more at that stage,
                    4 - I trust Sifu and 3000 years worth of masters"

                    Which is where he couldn't follow me... Because we have been educated in a way that pushes us to analyse, compartiment, describe, and question everything, he just could not stop intellectualizing about it. Which is fair enough because he openly admitted it, and that's where I was less then a year ago. Interestingly in his own words , he "can't stop trying to understand and analyze everything - I must have some sort of blockage"

                    So, to go back to the topic: at a beginner level, I don't think it is a good thing to know too much the "how and why". At least for me it wouldn't be. The background philosophy *is* important, but if you start thinking about which meridian is triggered while practicing (as inevitable I would do as a beginner) it would defeat the purpose.
                    However I can see that at an advanced level it could be very interesting - although not necessary.
                    Hubert Razack
                    www.shaolinwahnam.fr
                    www.sourireducoeur.fr

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Talking to rationalists

                      Hubert

                      There are quite a few studies these days clearly demonstrating acupuncture effects (the last one I saw was on the great effectiveness of some wrist point on post operative/anaestehsia nausea). So I generally move the conversation in that direction and then to go on to things like lower electrical resistance at acupoints and then suggest they research it all and come back and let me know

                      Anyway more importantly the balance is well expressed (of course) by Sifu - "During the exercises don't ask any questions of me or yourself. After the exercises ask as many questions as you like". On the latter different people by temperament and training will be disposed to ask more or less. IMO it doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't affect their ability to still the chattering mind when doing Qigong.

                      Ultimately of course (although this seems to be taking some time) if we accept Qigong phenomena/experience/accupuncture etc then there must be (at least for physical phenomena) a corresponding 'explanation' in western scientific terms. Finding that is of course a good thing (albeit may not make it easier to 'do' the skill). It always seems curious to me that all this chi research hasn't got further than it has.

                      Anyway going back to your chum being unable to stop gnawing at his intellectual bone - of course its a good thing (if some people were never that driven science would never be extended). Its only a blockage if he is never able to put down his bone and get some peace of mind (maaan). This reminds me of another Tolle-ism I came across this morning...

                      "The human race - lost in thought"



                      Mike
                      "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mike,

                        I agree completely. Questioning and trying to understand is of course a good thing. science is a good thing too.
                        In my friend's case, it was too much - which he admitted. It was more a "compulsive" need to analyze everything. In that case it is not so good, especially when it comes to Qigong or similar.

                        Having said that, he is very happy that way, so I say - "go for it, question as you like"
                        Hubert Razack
                        www.shaolinwahnam.fr
                        www.sourireducoeur.fr

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X