Visit to Sifu Wong: August 3rd - 6th 2004

[Quatro Bajina]

I visited Sifu (Sifu Wong) last week during the intensive chikung course. He is very kind to spare 90 minutes after the morning class to go over some stuffs with me. Below are some of the things that I experience during the meeting. I will add more as I settle down since I just come home yesterday.

I will not comment of Sifu’s teaching in Chikung and/or Shaolin because I don’t think I can add anything new to what people already say anyway. Instead, I will comment on the Hsing-I training that I got during those 3 days.

Sifu’s kungfu skills:
If I were to describe Sifu’s kungfu skill in one word, I believe the word “genius” would fit nicely. During the first day, I show him the 5 elemental fists and some of the 12 animal forms. The very next day, he knows Hsing-I more than I do in my 3 years of study!!! He shows me the correct Santi stance (I exposed my groin), how to do Stance Training the Hsing-I way, and some of the applications I don’t even know exists!!!

The most memorable experience is when he counters my double-leg and single leg takedown purely using Hsing-I techniques. As a person who studies Shuai Chiao (Chinese Wrestling) before, I know how to perform those aforementioned throws since I specialize in them. So I know whether the counter techniques work or not. There is no sprawl, no guillotine, just Hsing-I technique! (The techniques he used are “Dragon Descending from Heaven” and “Lazy Dragon Laying on Road” for those who are curious) He easily locks my hands with his legs (when I already grab them!!!) and controls me in such a way that I can’t move. There are no such things like elbow to the back of the head, smashing your opponent’s head with your invincible hand, eye gauging or other so called “deadly” techniques that are prescribe by Kungfu “master” who never grapple in their life. Sifu always emphasize on compassion to your opponent and he shows it during this session. I am truly impressed with his skill. Sifu has truly indeed reached the marvelous stage.

PS: Don’t get me wrong here, as I don’t want to start a flame war. Those “deadly” techniques can be transformed to deadly techniques if one were to practice them correctly with a grappler. However, it would be better if you work on things that don’t hurt your opponent since we live in a law biding society. The last thing you want to do is win the battle (win the fight) but lose the war (going to jail because you kill your opponent)

Next post: Sifu’s teaching



Franciskus

[DarkCosmoz]

Wow. Wow. Wow.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hi Franciskus,

I´m very happy to hear about your experiences training with Sifu and I´m looking forward to the next installments. Thanks for posting

All the best,

[Antonius]

Did you catch it on video?

[Antonius]

Franciskus,

I'm delighted you had such a good experience with Sifu, though I knew you would. I'm sure you can see now what I meant when I said, "Learning from me is fine, but learning from Sifu is something entirely different."

I wish I could have seen Sifu counter your takedowns. Although I don't know the techniques you mentioned, it sounds fantastic. If we meet again one day, perhaps you can teach me the counters.

I'm always amazed to watch Sifu do spontaneous applications -- especially when they come from other styles! In Toronto, I was awestruck to watch Sifu spontaneously apply Tan Tui against Mike. I think your description is apt. There is no way to explain it other than "marvelous." When I asked Sifu how he can do such things, he simply said, "Once you have the map, all routes become clear."

Regarding your comments about counters to takedowns. I'm sure that Sifu's counters were spectacular, but remember that he's a master. Normal people (like me) often just do the best they can. Unfortunately, this sometimes means resorting to less-than-marvelous techniques like eye gouging, elbows, and palm strikes.

A Shaolin axiom says it better: "strength cannot match techniques; techniques cannot match force; force cannot match speed; speed cannot match the marvelous." Perhaps one day when I reach mastery, I can use the "marvelous." Until then, I just rely on speed and internal force.

But you are right that my counters are not particularly compassionate. However, that is a problem that is particular to takedowns. Even Chen Man Ching, who was a master specializing in compassionately neutralizing and pushing opponents, once warned that if you tried to tackle him, he'd be forced to strike you.

Nevertheless, when it comes to life-or-death combat, gouging an eye is still merciful compared to killing. Furthermore, some techniques become more compassionate as you develop more force (and control over that force). For example, when my palms are more powerful, I can choose to dislocate the opponent's shoulder with a palm strike instead of gouging his eye or smashing the back of his head.

And there are other ways to practice compassion. It's not like I go around maiming grapplers. I didn't maim you when you took me to the ground! On occasions when I spar with grapplers, I'm happy to play, to smile and laugh and tap out. You may remember that when we sparred in NY, I was smiling and laughing even when you took me to the ground.

As I've said many times, I'm no master. When it comes to anti-grappling, I do what I can. I'm too lazy to spend time learning grappling. I would rather adapt techniques that I already have and spend that time practicing chi kung.

If my art had no counter to grappling, then it would be a different story. Then I would be forced to learn grappling (albeit reluctantly). But my art does have counters -- deadly ones and more compassionate ones. Until I am ready for those compassionate techniques, I will continue to practice my less-than-compassionate techniques with a clean conscience. After all, I would not use such techniques unless someone were threatening my nephew or my grandmother or my life.

I look forward to your next post. It's always refreshing to hear about other people's experiences with Sifu.

[Quatro Bajina]

Hi Antonius,

Did you catch it on video?

Nope, because I am too busy trying to keep my head from hitting the floor after I try to take Sifu down

I wish I could have seen Sifu counter your takedowns. Although I don't know the techniques you mentioned, it sounds fantastic. If we meet again one day, perhaps you can teach me the counters.

Yes, they are fantastic! What impress me the most is that Sifu actually goes down with me but he is the one that end up controlling me with his leg!!!

If we meet during the intensive course, we can ask Sifu to demonstrate them again on the one of the participants (namely me )

Normal people (like me) often just do the best they can. Unfortunately, this sometimes means resorting to less-than-marvelous techniques like eye gouging, elbows, and palm strikes.

My post regarding counters are not "targetted" towards you. If that sounds so, I apologized. Yours work remember? You tried it on me during my visit in New York.

My post is actually referring to the so-called kungfu "master" that never grapple in their life. I have sparred with so-called kungfu "master" several times. Once I take them down and they tap, the next thing they say is just one of the followings
* I could have kill you by using elbow to the back of your head
* If I could use my eye gouging skill, you won't be able to take me down
etc,etc,etc.

When Sifu counters me with those two techniques, I immediately remember about those occasions and it really strikes the cord on my heart.

Honestly speaking, I never know kungfu counters to double and single leg takedowns with the expection to the deadly technique I mention in my first post. I always ask myself whether there are actually other ways that don't resort to killing technqiues. When Sifu demonstrates them to me, I know I have found the answer


Franciskus

[Quatro Bajina]

Sifu’s teaching method:
In his teaching, Sifu is very meticulous. He knows which part of my body produces tension even though I am not aware of it. A perfect example would be in the Golden Bridge training. He advises me to relax my lower back since it is tense. He then holds my lower back and corrects my posture. I will not be able to spot this small tension if he doesn’t tell me about it. A sign of a true master.

He thoroughly explains using examples why certain things are more advantageous than others. For example, he advises me to hold the back hand of my Pao Chuan a little bit further from my head so I will have an easier time to defend against eye attacks. He also shows me why we don’t do a straight line Santi stance and the purpose of hooking your front foot inward. In addition, he let me “feel” some of the techniques so I could understand the application better. After demonstrating a technique he always says “Ok, now punch/push/kick/throw/grab me”. This enables me to absorb his teaching quicker and easier.

What I like the most about Sifu’s teaching is that he is very energetic and full of charisma. He enjoys teaching and one could tell easily after spending even only one session with him. I have noticed this characteristic is shared by all good teachers (my previous Hsing-I teacher as another example)

Next post: Sifu’s knowledge

[Quatro Bajina]

Sifu’s knowledge:
If “Genius” is a word that describes Sifu’s Kungfu skill, “Profound” is the word I choose to describe his knowledge. Before and after the session, he welcomes every questions that I have and answers them thoroughly starting from TCM, Buddhism, Hsing-I applications, chikung and Kungfu, and its history. He doesn’t withhold any information and communicates his answer crystal clear either by using specific examples or analogy. In addition, he always makes sure that I have understood the answer thoroughly. His profound knowledge combined with years of teaching experience makes him a superb teacher. A person like Sifu is extremely rare because he has both side of the equation: Kungfu skills and knowledge. He is truly a true Kungfu master and scholar indeed.

To be concluded: Sifu's personality

[drunken boxer]

Antonius,

I think I know where you are coming from regarding compassionate versus compassionate.
Personally, if someone attacked me without being provoked by me, then I would use the most powerful and vicious moves that I could, I would hit them with everything I had got basically, for two reasons:
Number one I have done this in the past and there have been a couple of occasions where it still hasn't been enough, so I certainly can't afford to use anything less!
Number two I believe that if someone launches an unprovoked attack on me and they happen to get hurt as a result, then it is their fault, not mine.

Franciskus,

What a brilliant story! I was smiling from the heart big time reading that! Thanks for sharing it.
(I practice xingyi too.)
Looking forward to the next instalment!

Paul.

[drunken boxer]

I'm a muppet, the first sentence of the last post should of course read "compassionate versus NON-compassionate".

[Quatro Bajina]

Sifu’s characteristics/personality

Sifu is extremely patient when he is teaching me Hsing-I Santi and Half Step Beng Chuan. He doesn’t mind going over the same stuffs over and over when I don’t understand it especially in doing the correct Santi stance.

Sifu is also very helpful. He likes to help other Kungfu practitioner, even though they are not a Shaolin exponent. On the second day, he told me that he will help me in my Hsing-I as well during the intensive Kungfu course. So I will spar both in Shaolin and Hsing-I! This is very comforting to me because I don’t need to throw away the Hsing-I that I have learned. To quote Sifu, I can have the best of both worlds

Sifu is also very comforting. I tell him about my leg problem (in the end it got really bad that I can’t even stand for 30 seconds in Golden Bridge). He told me not to worry about it since it is an old injury and the chi is trying to clear the blockages. I have a strong suspicion that he secretly helps me with this injury because two days after I see him, I can do the Golden Bridge normally again. Thanks Sifu!

The two dominant characteristics that really show are his confidence and charisma. By just looking at him in person for the first time, I could easily spot these two characteristics easily.

Final Thought: I want to see Sifu for quite sometime now but something always comes up. This time I finally manage to see him and I dare to say that it worth the trip I learn a lot within such period of time. I look forward to see him again in the intensive Kungfu course.

[Darryl]

[B]I look forward to see him again in the intensive Kungfu course.

Hi Quatro,

Are you talking about November 2004 by any chance?

[Quatro Bajina]

Hi Darryl,

If everything goes well, I will go to November course. I just started working and people in my country are not very keen in letting their employees take vacation. Not only to starting employees but senior employees as well
(People here are very work alcoholic)

I don't want to take a week off and be unemployed when I return I am trying to find a way to tell them but haven't got any luck in doing so...

The good thing is that my dad and I are organizing Honorary and/or regional course so we can invite Sifu here. (we got couple of participants already ) If worst come to worst, hopefully I can train with Sifu during the honorary or the regional course.

Are you coming to the november course?

Franciskus

[Darryl]

Are you coming to the november course?

Hi Franciskus,

I'm trying not to clutter this thread but yes, there will be several people from Shaolin Wahnam Scotland present in November (current number is seven).

[Baguamonk1]

Great reports and everything, but quite honestly if in 3 days he could demonstrate and apply things better than you could after 3 years, I think that has more to say of your training than his "genius"

But it would be great to see videos of such demo's, maybe put it up on website along with all the others like "defense against muy thai" etc.

Cheers