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Standing med & 'scooping up' in 18L/Hands

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  • Standing med & 'scooping up' in 18L/Hands

    OK I know the forum police are going to be after me for asking 2qs in one thread but I'm over my posting quota already today

    1) Standing med posture

    Small point I know. I am finding these days that I appear to be de-evolving into a chimpanzee - thus eg when I stand in the standing med posture my fingers are naturally 'curled' (ie fingertips pointing at 90degrees to palms) and arms slightly bent (so that hands hang in front of legs). The latter may be even more pronounced when a praticularly chi-y standing med. when plams seem to want to face each other uninterrupted as it were).

    Anyway small point as I say but is there a lot of leeway in the posture (at an intermediate level eg when you have learned to relax and stop worrying about - oh I don't know - your posture ) or should I be mildly encouraging my body to straighten the arms and fingers (or I guess doing some stretching exrecises to loosen tension)?

    2) 'Scooping up' in 18 Lohan Hands

    By which I mean the movement that is kind of gathering up with ones hands, slight leap up and then press down central axis type thing.

    I can't recall when this is done (ie which exercises) - is it done from all those with a 'low' stance?

    TIA

    Mike
    "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

  • #2
    Hi Mike,

    I'll answer one and leave the other for someone else (as usual )

    Originally posted by Mike B
    Standing med posture
    Quick answer - Stand upright

    Longer answer - Stand upright. Don't bend, don't dip, don't start swaying back and forth, just stand upright. A little (physical) tension is OK, but it's not upright like a soldier (lots of physical tension).

    Slightly longer answer again - When I move, I move. When I'm still, I'm still. There is still movement within the stillness and stillness within the movement, but the 'stiller' you are during your Standing Meditation the more benefit you will get from the practice. If you are rigid, you are not still. If you are flopping about, you are not still. If you find your body moving into another position (e.g. - like a chimpanzee), bring it back and be still. If you find your mind wandering about, bring it back and be still.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for this Darryl. Just for the avoidance of doubt are you saying then that my fingers should be say halfway between rigidly straight and totally relaxed ('monkey') - ie 'mild physical tension' [with I guess a side-order of, the implicit answer that, other things being equal, straightness of fingers is a parameter that matters (to some extent)].

      Anyway not trying to answer an answer with a question - just trying to clarify that I correctly understand the practical implications of your answer...

      tvm

      Mike
      "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

      Comment


      • #4
        Haystacks

        Hi Mike,

        Broadly speaking, the only tension you should feel would be in your back or your legs, depending on your posture. If you don't feel tension in your back or your legs, you may already have good posture. The more 'upright' you stand, the better your form.

        If the instructions are - 'stand upright, feet together and arms at your sides', then you can safely assume that the fingers are irrelevant.

        For this (highly specific) question - doesn't matter. I had to open my eyes to check my hands and found that they were slightly curled. To straighten them out brought about addittional tension but when flowing, my fingers naturally move to the optimum position anyway (straighter than when not flowing).

        Comment


        • #5
          'ava banana

          Glad to see I'm not the only one regressing - I guess the real test comes when standing 'upright' ones knuckles scrape the ground

          OK thats clear - thanks for the clarification.

          Mike
          "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

          Comment


          • #6
            I will take the 2nd question...

            I assume you mean "Chi Focusing at Dan Tien". One use in our school is at the end of stance training. Below is a description taken from Sifu's Q&A:

            "When you find that you cannot continue holding your stance any longer, jump your feet together. Just before your jump, bend your body slightly forward and place your open palms near your knees.

            As you jump, breathe in gently through your nose into your chest, and simultaneously bring your open palms together facing upward at chest level. When you are standing upright with your feet together, turn your palms to face downward and lower them to your Dan Tien level, simultaneously breathing out through your mouth, and letting your Chi sink gently - this is very important, gently - down to your Dan Tien. This is called 'Chi Focusing at Dan Tien'. Then drop your arms leisurely at your sides."

            Kind Regards,

            Jordan.

            Comment


            • #7
              "Scooping up" is generally used at the end of "Merry-Go-Round", "Green Dragon Presents Claws" and "Punching with Angry Eyes". If you are uncertain, then just gently bring one leg to the centre and then the other and stand up all without jumping and don't worry about the rest.

              Andrew
              Sifu Andrew Barnett
              Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

              Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
              Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
              Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Guys

                Jordan - yeh that sounds like it could be compatible with what I had merely registered as scooping

                Andrew - thanks for the clarification. Green dragon and punching with angry eyes I don't think I'll use (as too easy to get it wrong without correction) - however I am (now) throwing in the odd merry go round for variety so useful to know I've been omitting the 'scoop'.

                Darryl - reflecting on your points I think maybe underlying my thoughts was a kind of 'Tai Chi' attitude to the forms - eg in Tai Chi on day 1 you can make all sorts of mistakes in your form and it will be 'fine' - however as you go on more and more subtle corrections are made. I guess in Shaolin Wahnam qigong the same process doesn't apply...

                tvm

                Mike
                "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Corrections

                  Originally posted by Mike B
                  I guess in Shaolin Wahnam qigong the same process doesn't apply
                  On the contrary, it does. However, it doesn't come from the analyitical mind or from intellectual pondering, but from correct practice. The more you practice and the more relaxed you get in your practice, the smoother your chi will flow. The smoother your chi flows, the more your form will improve. The more your form will improve, the less mistakes you will make. The less mistakes that you make, the more you will get from your practice. And so on.

                  The changes later on can be intensely subtle and you may not even be aware of them, but you will still naturally and smoothly adjust accordingly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darryl
                    On the contrary, it does. However, it doesn't come from the analyitical mind or from intellectual pondering, but from correct practice.
                    OK point taken but:

                    1) I really meant 'just' outward physical form - forgetting the internal stuff, in Tai Chi (which of course has say 100 positions and transitions between them all) almost all students are capable of some correction. Qigong exercises are an order of magnitude or two 'easier' (from a purely external, physical, technical perspective) and I take it that you are saying that the external form will sort itself out if the internal stuff is progressing going well.

                    2) re intellectuality/pondering I think that perhaps there is an underestimation that is sometimes made by instructors here. It's actually quite tough, as a student, 'creating'/'upgrading'/'monitoring' ones program and performance - especially for those of lower experience. In fact sometimes I think it would be almost impossible (for me anyway) without the expert advice, patience and guidance that this forum provides. And of course in the way of things words are easy to misunderstand and somtimes things go back and forth a bit till the appropriate penny drops.

                    Anyway getting on my defensive soap box bit - when I learned Tai Chi I had a bi-weekly class with constant correction and was told exactly what to practice. Easy. No need to think just do it. When I learned nei-gung it was in a whole series of one on one inside-the-door lessons with my Sifu at the time. Plenty of correction. Again easy(-ish) - no need to read books (there were none), no need to spam fora (there were none), no need to wonder whether you are making mistakes (someone else will tell you if you are). It was also emphasised to me at the time that - for those exercises - one needed to do them 'correctly'.

                    In contrast if one doesn't have weekly classes or personal instruction then - to an extent one has to be in part ones own supervisor, monitorer and even instructor in terms of deciding what program to follow. Sure at a higher level one might be able to wu-wei all this but at a lower level one can't and some occasional self-analysis is the only way to 'look at yourself' from the outside. [/soapbox]

                    OK enough defensiveness from me (no doubt you are in tears of sadness and remorse by now ). Sure you are right of course, the easiest mistake maybe with these arts is to 'think about them' too much. Agreed. However never thinking about your program and 'looking' at whether one is still doing the exercises as one should is also I feel likely to lead to underperformance, deviation. As always it isn't thinking per se that is the problem it is only when it is excessive or inappropriate that it becomes a problem [well I guess thats a Buddhist view - they don't have the Tao to sort it all out which is how you Taoists get away with avoiding ever knowingly thinking ].

                    Anyway backspin and banter aside I am with you on the gist of it.

                    Thanks again.

                    Mike
                    "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

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