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  • #16
    The Great Damo, like everyone else, was taught by The Almighty.
    开心 好运气
    kai xin... .......hao yunqi... - Sifu's speech, April 2005
    open heart... good chi flow... good luck ...
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Have we not opened up thy heart ...? (The Reading, 94:1)
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Be joyful, ..and share your joy with others -(Anand Krishna)

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    • #17
      Lineages of masters and disciples

      Originally posted by Mbyte View Post
      Amazng!

      ...Who thought Damo?

      ..
      Sifu Joko is right . Also according to the Platform Sutra , Vasumitra taught Bodhidharma .
      Damo was the 28th successor after Sakyamuni.
      Who taught the first Buddha ? Who laid the first egg ? Dunno , just enjoy the benefits of the practise
      Last edited by Damian Kissey; 20 October 2008, 02:58 PM.
      Damian Kissey
      Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
      www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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      • #18
        Very intresting.

        Wear did the first egg come from?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mbyte:
          Very intresting.

          Wear did the first egg come from?
          What kind of conversation is this? Is it a conversation?
          "From formless to form, from form to formless"

          26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
          Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

          Website: www.enerqi.ch

          Comment


          • #20
            Anyone who tries doing some serious grappling soon learns where low stances came from - they come from natrual laws of physics that our bodies adopt natrually. Chinese martial arts, as a whole, like the folk arts of other countries probably developed from wrestling.

            In the old lei tai rules if a person was 'thrown' the fight was lost for them, even up to the fights of the twenties and thirties, so it was very important to have a stable stance and not be thrown. You see the same idea adopted in modern MMA - you see wide stances, dropping in to low stances, long fist punching.

            What makes an art useable is its honesty towards training and coaching methods. The more it is only 'theory' the more you will problably be shocked by reality. I've never trained with anyone from Shaolin Wah Nam, unfortunately, but I have sparred with many excellent fighters, and there are great fighters in every art. But each art has poor schools - it's inevitable.

            Even someone with no training can be a powerful animal - and adult human male can rock you with his power, even untrained. Doing it under pressure is key - real pressure. Training with real pressure is very important.

            Learning to react when being hit, learning how not to lose sense of where you are when rolling - all important. Zhan ZHuang is one aspect of traditional skill, too, in my view, that is very useful.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post
              Anyone who tries doing some serious grappling soon learns where low stances came from - they come from natrual laws of physics that our bodies adopt natrually. Chinese martial arts, as a whole, like the folk arts of other countries probably developed from wrestling.

              In the old lei tai rules if a person was 'thrown' the fight was lost for them, even up to the fights of the twenties and thirties, so it was very important to have a stable stance and not be thrown. You see the same idea adopted in modern MMA - you see wide stances, dropping in to low stances, long fist punching.

              What makes an art useable is its honesty towards training and coaching methods. The more it is only 'theory' the more you will problably be shocked by reality. I've never trained with anyone from Shaolin Wah Nam, unfortunately, but I have sparred with many excellent fighters, and there are great fighters in every art. But each art has poor schools - it's inevitable.

              Even someone with no training can be a powerful animal - and adult human male can rock you with his power, even untrained. Doing it under pressure is key - real pressure. Training with real pressure is very important.

              Learning to react when being hit, learning how not to lose sense of where you are when rolling - all important. Zhan ZHuang is one aspect of traditional skill, too, in my view, that is very useful.
              You make some very good points, this is why its important to fight with many styles of kung fu ,karate, boxing, any martial arts and with people that have no martial arts expirience, street fighters, and one has to fight in enviorment that is not controlled all the time , yes sparing is fine but actual fighting is not the same, so both should be practised, when sparing it should be as real as possible, with shouse on like your in the street, and full power strikes to the body only holding back on face and groin strikes, this makes it almost real, sparing should not be for the week or faint lol
              can kung fu be used for fighting, HELL YES, that is the hole perpose of kung fu, let me corect that, Healthy mind and body, Long life, and self defence.is why we all practice any chinese martial art

              Comment


              • #22
                I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying here.

                Originally posted by JIMMI555 View Post
                when sparing it should be as real as possible, with shouse on like your in the street, and full power strikes to the body only holding back on face and groin strikes, this makes it almost real, sparing should not be for the week or faint lol
                Is not one of the points of practising a martial art not to get hit at all? Especially when it comes to high level arts like Shaolin kung fu where a single hit can end a fight instantly. Accomplished kung fu exponents with internal force can take hits better then most people, but not getting hit at all is essential from novice to master.

                What if your opponent have a weapon? No matter how well one think one can take a kick or strike to the body, it is better to be adept at avoiding being hit, by good footwork as well as defensive techniques.

                I know from personal experience that with proper training relative beginners can spar effecively with some force and speed without anyone getting hit at all over several days of training. If your partner fail to defend himself, the strike should stop short of making actual contact, but close enough to serve as a wakeup call. Having experienced this as both the one delivering and (almost) receiving the hit, one learns a lot more this way then having to interrupt the session because of a bleeding lip.

                Sparring I believe should serve as confirming your combative skills that are trained separately, not serve as unplanned fight simulation.

                Aiming to hit your opponent, or partner with forceful strikes is not beneficial whatsoever, one does not need to get hit in sparring to realize it is a bad thing. It is unhealthy both physically and mentally, regardless if done among friends that wipe eachothers bloody noses afterwards or angry competitors.

                Originally posted by JIMMI555 View Post
                can kung fu be used for fighting, HELL YES, that is the hole perpose of kung fu, let me corect that, Healthy mind and body, Long life, and self defence.is why we all practice any chinese martial art
                I agree on the correction here, and for high level arts like kung fu and taijiquan one can also add spiritual development.
                When one door closes, another one opens.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JIMMI555 View Post
                  You make some very good points, this is why its important to fight with many styles of kung fu ,karate, boxing, any martial arts and with people that have no martial arts expirience,


                  Thank you, and yes, I agree. It is a shame – there must be many martial artists, from many styles, thinking, where can I go to compare with other styles? If we go to another school, it’s usually to learn their style – there’s really very little option to meet other stylists and still do your style, seeing where your interpretation is weak or strong when facing theirs.

                  There are competitions, of course, but before we even get to that stage, it would be nice to have some kind of comparison format.

                  One of the most skilful fighters, and indeed deeply insightful martial artists I ever met or trained with, was a Muay Thai boxer. His theories on martial arts were very similar to Chinese theories, but come to independently, through honest, serious exploration and training. He was unbelievably powerful and tough! Like the Terminator, ha ha. But also very wise and humble. I believe that at that level, differences between styles have far less meaning – many ways up the mountain, same destination.

                  Originally posted by JIMMI555 View Post
                  street fighters, and one has to fight in enviorment that is not controlled all the time , yes sparing is fine but actual fighting is not the same, so both should be practised, when sparing it should be as real as possible, with shouse on like your in the street, and full power strikes to the body only holding back on face and groin strikes, this makes it almost real, sparing should not be for the week or faint lol

                  It is certainly true that sparring and real fighting are not the same. There’s a massive psychological difference, for a start off. Knowing that ‘this is for real’ and no one is going to stop it, and anything could happen, very much change the situation.

                  One of the ways sparring can help with that, in my view, is by training you to face fear. The sparring you are about to do should, in my view, confront you with a challenge – you know that you have to ‘switch on’, face the fear in your stomach, etc. If the sparring is too light, it won’t illicit that reaction in you – and I think it’s the fear that needs to be trained above all, because if you’re crippled with fear, nothing will work. Similarly, the military have the same problem - training is not war, so they try to train you as best they can to be ready, especially learning the essential 'function under pressure' skills. 'Transeferable skills' is the buzz-phrase relevant here, I suppose.

                  Good practice, to me, is when you spar, don’t have little breaks, gentleman’s agreements, etc. – once you bow and start, you are ‘in a fight’ until it finishes, which means unless your opponent gives up completely, attack them, pressure them – if they turn their back or walk away casually, pounce on them – not to hurt them, of course, just to modify habits. If we train bad habits, then those are what we have been trained in.

                  Originally posted by JIMMI555 View Post

                  can kung fu be used for fighting, HELL YES, that is the hole perpose of kung fu, let me corect that, Healthy mind and body, Long life, and self defence.is why we all practice any chinese martial art
                  Much agreed!
                  Last edited by Old-Liu; 4 November 2008, 11:13 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Omar View Post
                    I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying here.
                    Originally posted by Omar View Post



                    Is not one of the points of practising a martial art not to get hit at all? Especially when it comes to high level arts like Shaolin kung fu where a single hit can end a fight instantly. Accomplished kung fu exponents with internal force can take hits better then most people, but not getting hit at all is essential from novice to master.


                    There is something to be said for that, I think. Using gloves, although, in my view very useful, can lead to a sense that more can be ‘taken’ than you really could if it was bare-hand. A bare knuckle punch to the cheek can shatter it, and has been known to rip part of the face off.

                    To me, a fighter trains a variety of attributes. Avoiding being hit is one attribute, physical and mental toughness is another. Anyone who has ever been thigh kicked by a muay thai expert knows – it is a sickening, horrible feeling! And just one kick, if you haven’t trained to take it, undermines everything – your leg stops functioning, so that’s your stance, your balance, your support, your mobility eliminated. Plus, the sickening feeling affects all of you, including your fear.

                    So, on the one hand, I agree – don’t get kicked! On the other, holding smaller pads for people to do thigh kicks – pads that you can really feel the kick through – develops an essential toughness. That’s my experience, anyway.


                    Originally posted by Omar View Post


                    What if your opponent have a weapon? No matter how well one think one can take a kick or strike to the body, it is better to be adept at avoiding being hit, by good footwork as well as defensive techniques.


                    Well, that’s a good point – but, one should also say, ‘what if kicks you in the leg?’ Be prepared, like the scouts!

                    Krav Maga might say, well what if they have a gun? Keeping your distance is no defence in that case. There’s always the ‘what if he knows I know he knows I know…?’ I would say, the best bet is to effectively train all attributes. What do you think?

                    Originally posted by Omar View Post

                    I know from personal experience that with proper training relative beginners can spar effecively with some force and speed without anyone getting hit at all over several days of training. If your partner fail to defend himself, the strike should stop short of making actual contact, but close enough to serve as a wakeup call. Having experienced this as both the one delivering and (almost) receiving the hit, one learns a lot more this way then having to interrupt the session because of a bleeding lip.



                    I agree – one thing that is rarely considered is a step by step approach to getting people used to making and receiving contact. It’s actually quite easy to train people to be comfortable with contact – it’s just that usually, few ever make the effort – so you get, as you say, beginners being hit hard, which only reinforces their fear of contact – the ‘brutalization’ method, which either doesn’t work, or works by brutalizing people, which damages them psychologically.

                    Originally posted by Omar View Post

                    Sparring I believe should serve as confirming your combative skills that are trained separately, not serve as unplanned fight simulation.

                    Aiming to hit your opponent, or partner with forceful strikes is not beneficial whatsoever, one does not need to get hit in sparring to realize it is a bad thing. It is unhealthy both physically and mentally, regardless if done among friends that wipe eachothers bloody noses afterwards or angry competitors.


                    Body toughness, and mental toughness, in my coaching method avoid brutalization. Just holding the pads can be a body toughening aid. And people can put gloves on and just ‘get over’ their fear of contact step by step. I certainly don’t believe in that very hard, external qi gung where people basically kill their nerve cells with repeated bodily abuse – I don’t think that is necessary at all.

                    But one must have some knowledge of what it is like to be hit, otherwise, psychological – natural protective psychological responses will over ride, in many cases, your training with fear and surprise. One could not play rugby without learning to be tough – same with martial arts.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Omar View Post
                      I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying here.



                      Is not one of the points of practising a martial art not to get hit at all? Especially when it comes to high level arts like Shaolin kung fu where a single hit can end a fight instantly. Accomplished kung fu exponents with internal force can take hits better then most people, but not getting hit at all is essential from novice to master.

                      What if your opponent have a weapon? No matter how well one think one can take a kick or strike to the body, it is better to be adept at avoiding being hit, by good footwork as well as defensive techniques.

                      I know from personal experience that with proper training relative beginners can spar effecively with some force and speed without anyone getting hit at all over several days of training. If your partner fail to defend himself, the strike should stop short of making actual contact, but close enough to serve as a wakeup call. Having experienced this as both the one delivering and (almost) receiving the hit, one learns a lot more this way then having to interrupt the session because of a bleeding lip.

                      Sparring I believe should serve as confirming your combative skills that are trained separately, not serve as unplanned fight simulation.

                      Aiming to hit your opponent, or partner with forceful strikes is not beneficial whatsoever, one does not need to get hit in sparring to realize it is a bad thing. It is unhealthy both physically and mentally, regardless if done among friends that wipe eachothers bloody noses afterwards or angry competitors.



                      I agree on the correction here, and for high level arts like kung fu and taijiquan one can also add spiritual development.
                      Hello Omar, i will try to answer your questions.
                      First question: Is it not the point of practising a martial are not go get hit at all?
                      Answer : Yes it is eventualy after practicing for a long time, you can't practice kung fu or any martial art with out getting hit , martal arts are not a non contact sport, they are fighting arts, blocking ,hitting ,striking ,and getting hit are all a part of training, how wonderful it would be if we can all learn kung fu with out ever getting hit lol, let me just give you one simple examble, if you never go hit during your training at all, and you got in a real fight and got hit for the first time in your life, the results would be devestating to you, for you would have never developed mantal and phisical touphnes during your training,you dont want to leave things like that for last minute suprizes lol, you get that out of the way in your early stages of training ,hopefuly whey you advance you wont be getting hit any longer, but hitting and getting hit is part of kung fu training , if we had no hitting we would be balarinas not martial artists,
                      Second question: what if some one had a wepon?
                      Answer: You always try to avoid a wepon, traing against wepons is a bit diferant then facing bare hand oponent, with facing a wepon we will avoid the dandgeros part of the wepon, for example the tip of the staff or club or basball bat, all the energy of such a wepon would be on the front tip so we avoid the tip and we can move in counterattack being able to block or deflect any other part of that staff or club with out it hurting us,your skills would realy be put to the test if your facing a opponent with a wepon in a real fight, just theorys wont help you, your study of the art you practice needs to have much fighting expirience to meet such a chalange like that
                      Third question: I know from personal experiance that with proper training reletive beginners can spar iffeciantly with some force and speed with out getting hit at all over sevral days of training
                      Answer: if a school wont teach contact it is for a very good reason, after just the first week of sparing many students will quit, after first contact when they feel pain for the first time, they will quit, the people that dont realy want to be there wont like to get bruses on there arms and legs, in the older days of kung fu this was a way to clear out the crowd and see who wants to be there and who dose not, so there was not a problem , but today if the students leave or quit the rent wont get paid, lol so many schools have toned down the fighting and heavy contact and its not for your good that is done , its for the healthy iconomy of the school,have you never herd the term used NO PAIN NO GAIN? as one trains over period of time both your ability to take a strike incresess and the ability to controll your strikes gets quite good, so you can controll your strike stoping it 1/8 inch from the opponents face with out hitting him, and when you hit him to the body with a hand or kick his ability to absorb the strike is well developed and his chi protects him ,you are both learning to use your chi to protect you or give power to your strikes, its all part of kung fu, you can not have one with out the other, theory alone is empty, you have to combine theory and aplication they become one unseperable ,hitting and getting hit is part of your training if your learning real kung fu
                      Fourth question: I think sparing should serve to confirm your combative skills,not serve as unplaned fighting simulation
                      Answer: As i stated above ,sparing should be as real as possible, you should know your in a fight when you are sparing , even a friend facing me when we put our hands up there is not friend any more, he is not my oponent and its real ,like in a real fight we are both a bit nervos inside because we both know that each of us will try with all his skill to score with a hit not just a point, fighting with points is not realistik and wont teach fighting for real situations, you must fight like its real , of cource its not as real as a street fight, there is much controll and ther is respect for each other , not like what you would find in the street fight, but it has to be close to real , so as to train you for that real fight , its very important mentaly phicologicaly and phisicaly, to be prepared for real fighting, practical aplication and theory go hand in hand you must have both and the only way to have practical aplication is to do it for real not just pretend and think about it, you must learn to aply all your teckniques like its for real every time
                      My last answer to your post:Aming to hit your oponent or partner with full force strikes is quite benefitial, first it teaches you to strike in real situation, it will show you if your body is in corect alinment, if your body is not alined when you strike your power will not be full, if your alinement is rong every thing is effected, your hart rate, your breathing and your chi flow all will be effected and your power will get lost and desipate, part of your strike will just deflect off your oponent and part of your striking power will actualy be absorbed by your body, hitting and getting hit is esential part of training in kung fu, this aply for all kung fu ,hard or soft styles, even Tai chi has contact , pushing hands and there is striking and uprooting with chi force not just phisical force, its not to worry about hitting or getting hit you are paired with a equal oponent that alsow knows how to take and give a hit, and dont be so worry about a bloody nose lol .
                      No pain no gain keep this in mind
                      best regards
                      james

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Forgot one last thing

                        Originally posted by Omar View Post
                        I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying here.



                        Is not one of the points of practising a martial art not to get hit at all? Especially when it comes to high level arts like Shaolin kung fu where a single hit can end a fight instantly. Accomplished kung fu exponents with internal force can take hits better then most people, but not getting hit at all is essential from novice to master.

                        What if your opponent have a weapon? No matter how well one think one can take a kick or strike to the body, it is better to be adept at avoiding being hit, by good footwork as well as defensive techniques.

                        I know from personal experience that with proper training relative beginners can spar effecively with some force and speed without anyone getting hit at all over several days of training. If your partner fail to defend himself, the strike should stop short of making actual contact, but close enough to serve as a wakeup call. Having experienced this as both the one delivering and (almost) receiving the hit, one learns a lot more this way then having to interrupt the session because of a bleeding lip.

                        Sparring I believe should serve as confirming your combative skills that are trained separately, not serve as unplanned fight simulation.

                        Aiming to hit your opponent, or partner with forceful strikes is not beneficial whatsoever, one does not need to get hit in sparring to realize it is a bad thing. It is unhealthy both physically and mentally, regardless if done among friends that wipe eachothers bloody noses afterwards or angry competitors.



                        I agree on the correction here, and for high level arts like kung fu and taijiquan one can also add spiritual development.
                        Yes corect that is why i said healthy (mind) and body.Mind representing the spiritual development of your training

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          quite corect

                          Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post

                          There is something to be said for that, I think. Using gloves, although, in my view very useful, can lead to a sense that more can be ‘taken’ than you really could if it was bare-hand. A bare knuckle punch to the cheek can shatter it, and has been known to rip part of the face off.

                          To me, a fighter trains a variety of attributes. Avoiding being hit is one attribute, physical and mental toughness is another. Anyone who has ever been thigh kicked by a muay thai expert knows – it is a sickening, horrible feeling! And just one kick, if you haven’t trained to take it, undermines everything – your leg stops functioning, so that’s your stance, your balance, your support, your mobility eliminated. Plus, the sickening feeling affects all of you, including your fear.

                          So, on the one hand, I agree – don’t get kicked! On the other, holding smaller pads for people to do thigh kicks – pads that you can really feel the kick through – develops an essential toughness. That’s my experience, anyway.




                          Well, that’s a good point – but, one should also say, ‘what if kicks you in the leg?’ Be prepared, like the scouts!

                          Krav Maga might say, well what if they have a gun? Keeping your distance is no defence in that case. There’s always the ‘what if he knows I know he knows I know…?’ I would say, the best bet is to effectively train all attributes. What do you think?




                          I agree – one thing that is rarely considered is a step by step approach to getting people used to making and receiving contact. It’s actually quite easy to train people to be comfortable with contact – it’s just that usually, few ever make the effort – so you get, as you say, beginners being hit hard, which only reinforces their fear of contact – the ‘brutalization’ method, which either doesn’t work, or works by brutalizing people, which damages them psychologically.



                          Body toughness, and mental toughness, in my coaching method avoid brutalization. Just holding the pads can be a body toughening aid. And people can put gloves on and just ‘get over’ their fear of contact step by step. I certainly don’t believe in that very hard, external qi gung where people basically kill their nerve cells with repeated bodily abuse – I don’t think that is necessary at all.

                          But one must have some knowledge of what it is like to be hit, otherwise, psychological – natural protective psychological responses will over ride, in many cases, your training with fear and surprise. One could not play rugby without learning to be tough – same with martial arts.
                          We dont just kick and punch each other to death when we spar , it comes gradualy, as one learns to strike with force his alsow learning to take the strikes phisicaly and mentaly you get over your fear of getting hit, when it sinks in that you can deflect your oponets strikes no mater how powerful you no longer fear his strikes, but you still train to take a strike,not just to avoid getting hit,if your runing away for hits in the school your training it what will you do in the street? As the Tai chi clasics say ,even if your oponents has 1000 pounds force you can nutralize it with just 4 ounces of presure ,real tecknique takes away fear of fighting and or getting hit
                          we spared very hard in my school many times i had bad bruses on my shin bones , arms, body, never stoped me from training in my kung fu ,my hand was always raised when asked hou wants to spar today, and when ever i did get hit i was prowd to know with my training i can avoid being hurt from any strike , i always liked the contact both hitting and getting hit , you learn from both, im not a big guy but i considered being able to take a hit esential in my training , you have to be mentaly hardend as well as phisicaly

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Another Revelous thread

                            In other words, we are all agreed that Kungfu can be used for fighting

                            Dear Old-Liu,

                            I have enjoyed reading your posts, including the parts I may disagree with or wish to reply to. I have enjoyed the clarity with which you have written and the effective layout of your post. This made it easy for me to understand your point, to select the quote that I wished to discuss.

                            Dear Jimi555,

                            I enjoyed reading your latest post. It also contains points I would want to discuss further but your layout is very confusing. I am not an English teacher so I wont go into specifics, but if your future posts contained definite paragraphs and clear punctuation I would enjoy the discussion even more .

                            Please know that it is not my intention to embarrass you, either with your dyslexia or level of education. I wish to encourage you to correct your mistakes and enjoy your time here. This is also the philosophy we bring into our sparring, so that our training is beneficial, educational and fun. Sometimes this process can also be very uncomfortable, so we train to be courageous and persistent.

                            In my experience, shrugging off a physical blow is far easier than changing an established habit

                            All the best,

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hello darryl

                              Originally posted by Darryl View Post
                              In other words, we are all agreed that Kungfu can be used for fighting

                              Dear Old-Liu,

                              I have enjoyed reading your posts, including the parts I may disagree with or wish to reply to. I have enjoyed the clarity with which you have written and the effective layout of your post. This made it easy for me to understand your point, to select the quote that I wished to discuss.

                              Dear Jimi555,

                              I enjoyed reading your latest post. It also contains points I would want to discuss further but your layout is very confusing. I am not an English teacher so I wont go into specifics, but if your future posts contained definite paragraphs and clear punctuation I would enjoy the discussion even more .

                              Please know that it is not my intention to embarrass you, either with your dyslexia or level of education. I wish to encourage you to correct your mistakes and enjoy your time here. This is also the philosophy we bring into our sparring, so that our training is beneficial, educational and fun. Sometimes this process can also be very uncomfortable, so we train to be courageous and persistent.

                              In my experience, shrugging off a physical blow is far easier than changing an established habit

                              All the best,
                              Thank you for all the edvice you have given me will try my best to do that
                              kind regards

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                For me, of course kung fu can be used for fighting. The honest question is, can I use it for fighting? And the honest answer to that is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I am not a professional fighter, so naturally I can’t expect to compete with a man training six or seven hours a day, with the finest equipment, coaching, diet, doctors, spas, masseurs, training partners, video check-backs, and indeed, motivation coming from this being his career and the way he will feed his family and pay the bills.

                                Often, with kung fu, I feel that we’ve yet to see much of its modernised potential – modernised in the sense of professional training regimes that allow a consequently professional expression of kung fu skill in a fighter. Most kung fu people are amateur, not professional, and few are interested in the world stage of MMA, etc.

                                Of course, China now has the Art of War tournament, so we will see what the future brings.

                                I see the issue as one of comparative levels. For example, if we take the top amateur fighters from all arts and compare them, then presumably those arts with the best training methods will have produced consistently high levels of amateur fighter. Unfortunately, there are some poor schools in each art, and fortunately, there are some great fighters in every art, so it is difficult to compare.

                                I rather figure that my chances of ending up having a serious fight with a professional MMA fighter are very limited, same as my chances of ending up having to fight a pro-boxer. So I look at one, martial artists of a similar training level and experience – I have pride in my art, and I want to be as good as I can be, for the training I do; two, I look at the people I’m most likely to need to fight in a worst case scenario – muggers, thugs, criminals, and I hope that my training is enough to cope with most of those, with a little luck; and three, I look at other benefits – my enjoyment of the way I train and the things I train in, and the benefits to health and well being they bring.

                                In short, of course kung fu can be used for fighting. Too often, sadly, people compare amateur kung fu players to professionals or very serious, top level amateurs from other arts which isn’t a fair or relevant comparison. A hobby MMAer, training once or twice a week for a bit of fitness wouldn’t be compared to a professional Chinese san da champion. There’s no comparison.

                                I believe the principles of Chinese martial arts are profound, but just like any art, they can be expressed on many levels, depending on how serious the training is.
                                Last edited by Old-Liu; 6 November 2008, 11:44 AM.

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