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  • Is Kung Fu a Martial Art?

    A question which is often asked ---

    Kung Fu is defined as a Martial Art. A Martial Art is, by definition, a system for fighting. Many who practice Kung Fu, however, do not or cannot use their Kung Fu for fighting or sparring.
    - Is this then still a Martial Art?
    - Is it really Kung Fu?
    - If it is no longer a Martial Art, then why is it still called Kung Fu?

    Andrew
    Sifu Andrew Barnett
    Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

    Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
    Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
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  • #2
    Perspectives

    Or to rephrase the question, is a Martial Art still Kungfu?

    One of my students recently told me that when he had been practicing Lau Gar Kungfu, they still were taught sets but without any real emphasis on stances (even when being taught the form). Another of my students had previously been taught a Preying Mantis form and when I asked them both to demonstrate what they could remember, they were reluctant to do so. When they did display the forms, I could recognise some of the applications of the patterns and enjoyed seeing them (the forms).

    To me, the question is not so much "Is Kungfu a Martial Art" but "Is Kungfu still alive as an art". It was extremely heartwarming to see the students display their forms (I don't exactly know why, but it brought a great feeling of open-hearted joy to see the Preying Mantis form). While the students had previously been practicing what is commonly defined as being a Martial Art, they had not been practicing Kungfu (an Art that is still alive).

    To the questions -

    Is this then still a Martial Art?
    From the above example, I would say that since neither of the students previous form was alive (or understood) then no, they were not Martial Arts.

    Is it really Kung Fu?
    I lean more towards yes here, since the raw material itself (the structured form) is still there. I am sure that if the students were to practice their previous forms with the emphasis on Form and Force they would be able to recover several missing elements of the way they were taught. If they looked around, they could then find someone to demonstrate the Applications of the patterns and with study, practice and hard work, they may also recover some of the Philosophy behind the patterns as well. All of this would pale if they could find a genuine Master of their chosen style but without the Hard Work itself, I do not believe that any art can be called a Martial Art.

    If it is no longer a Martial Art, then why is it still called Kung Fu?
    Convenience, Ego, accidental Ignorance. I believe that the third is the most pressing aspect, since it is the easiest one to change (Direct Experience).

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting thread, but you're both missing something...

      Pardon my intrusion, but the underlying point is missing.

      Kung-fu is not, never was, a martial art. It is Wushu to which you refer; kung-fu is one element of Wushu, namely the form of technique performed as precisely as the practitioner can manage. The stronger one's form becomes, the greater his or her kung-fu is said to be.

      The real problem faced by wushu today is historical. Over the course of centuries, masters did not always impart EVERYTHING they knew to their students, sometimes by oversight, sometimes by virtue of circumstances.

      When wushu came to America, Americans did to it what they have done with every foreign culture concept that has come to the U.S. -- they watered it down.

      Even in China now there are few true wushu masters, and too many frauds. Throw in the honest ones who simply got stuck with watered-down knowledge, and that leaves very few people today who study the "real deal".

      Is wushu, in its various forms, still a viable martial art? Usually. It does take a talented and determined individual to make it so, but this is true of any martial art. We cannot fault a body of knowledge for the shortsightedness of its practitioners. In our striving for humility, we often ignore our own observations, substituting instead to follow only what we are taught by others. Ultimately, the great masters and founders of wushu created these arts through observation, trial, error, and practice.

      And that is how you begin to revitalize your wushu. Practice your forms, and seek to understand your forms far below the surface. See it through the eyes of a warrior. Therein lies true budo.

      Respectfully,
      Tien-Lung Fu

      Comment


      • #4
        Let me expand a little...

        If you are pursuing the mastery of any martial art on a purely physical level, your goal cannot be reached. Only by understanding the nature of yin, yang, and the tao spiritually and physically, can the best-kept understandings and secrets be understood.

        Respectfully,
        Tien-Lung Fu

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Tien-Lung Fu. Welcome to the forum.

          Kung-fu is not, never was, a martial art.
          This becomes a matter of semantics, but we at Shaolin Wahnam tend to avoid the term "wushu" in favor of the term "kungfu". Obviously, we are aware that the term kungfu is a fairly modern invention and that it was known by different names at different times in history. Actually, the term most commonly used over the past 2000 years was "wuyi", which is actually more precise in its meaning than "wushu."

          Nevertheless, we at Shaolin Wahnam prefer the term "kungfu" because the term "wuyi" is esoteric and the term "wushu" no longer maintains its original meaning (i.e. "martial art"). "Wushu" has become a mainstream term for the watered-down, dance-like form of kungfu supported by the Chinese government. By our definitions, modern "wushu" does not qualify as a martial art.

          The other term that I and some of the Chinese speakers here sometimes use instead of kungfu is "quan", (which is short for "quanfa"). So when referring to Shaolin Kung Fu, we sometimes use Shaolinquan instead. Both have the same meaning.

          kung-fu is one element of Wushu, namely the form of technique performed as precisely as the practitioner can manage.
          This may be another matter of semantics, but I would say this is innacurate unless your idea of "form" includes skill and force. Kung, or "gong" (in Mandarin) does not really refer to precision in form. It means skill, but it often has a connotation of force (external and/or internal) associated with this skill.

          So if you speak of someone having Hu Zhua Gong, you are referring to a person who has both the skill and the force of the Art of the Tiger Claw. Being able to perform the form of the Tiger Claw technique perfectly does not mean you have Hu Zhua Gong. If you don't have the skill or the force behind that Tiger Claw, then you do not have Hu Zhua Gong.
          Sifu Anthony Korahais
          www.FlowingZen.com
          (Click here to learn more about me.)

          Comment


          • #6
            Antonius,

            I most certainly agree in your expansion of the definition of "form". Form for its own sake is always useless; power in technique is gong at its core.

            I appreciate the refresher of terms; keeping Mandarin and Canton dialect separate in my head has been an ongoing challenge-- add Japanese to the mix, and it's no small wonder I mix terms up at times.

            Many thanks,
            Tien-Lung Fu

            Comment


            • #7
              Off topic, but you might be interested in checking out our Chinese section. Personally, I think it's one of the best collections on the web. Enjoy.
              Sifu Anthony Korahais
              www.FlowingZen.com
              (Click here to learn more about me.)

              Comment


              • #8
                A Matter Of Semantics!

                Hello Anthony!

                Most Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Stylists, like myself, agree with your comments regarding the use of 'kung-fu' vs. 'wu-shu' in referring to our methods. Certainly the term 'kung-fu' is used in reference to exceptional skills in any work activity from stonemasonry to martial arts, whereas the term 'wu-shu' is specifically related to martial arts or military arts. However, in the past 20 years or so, the term 'wu-shu' has come to be most closely associated with the competitive movement routines developed in China which combine elements of traditional martial art with gymnastic style tumbling and floor exercise movements.

                These Modern Competitive Wu-Shu routines have very little to do with the training agendas and priorities of Traditional Wu-shu or Kung-Fu. The Modern Wu-Shu Sets certainly require a high level of physical conditioning and athleticism to perform well, but have generally been deliberately stripped of any 'intention' to be applied to fighting or self-defense. As a result, I do not consider such methods to be martial art, but rather consider them to be competitive performing arts based on martial art. That being the case, most Traditionalists have moved away from calling their Arts 'wu-shu' in order to separate themselves from the Modern Wu-Shu movement, preferring instead to call the Traditional Wu-Shu Arts by the generic term of Kung-Fu. Additionally, as you said, the term 'Chuan' or 'Quan' for 'Boxing' is still commonly and appropriately used as in the examples....Shao-lin Chuan, Tai-chi Chuan, Pa-kua Chuan, Hsing-yi Chuan, and so forth.

                The Shen Men Tao Association Members and myself are in complete agreement with our Shaolin Wahnam friends in regard to these matters.
                http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Modern Wu-Shu Sets certainly require a high level of physical conditioning and athleticism to perform well, but have generally been deliberately stripped of any 'intention' to be applied to fighting or self-defense.
                  Thank you for pointing this out, Sifu Stier. I think you summed it up nicely.

                  In case it wasn't clear from my posts, I do respect modern Wushu as a sport. As Sifu Stier said, a high level of athleticism is required to perform the sets. Some of the moves are fantastically difficult to do and amazing to watch. I certainly cannot perform many of acrobatic feats. My point was not to disparage modern Wushu, but to contrast it to genuine Kungfu.

                  I think it's a good thing that traditionalists are united in their decision not to use the term Wushu. I hope this will help to eliminate some of the confusion surrounding the terminology.
                  Sifu Anthony Korahais
                  www.FlowingZen.com
                  (Click here to learn more about me.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If I may add to this thread, the standard word used in the novels is
                    武功 wu3 gong1.

                    I always thought it was a most useful phrase. Kung Fu sounds too colloqial for me, wushu means the modern routines, and quanfa is only a subset of wugong. Every time you use "quan", it can be misinterpreted as only techniques. Wugong is in my mind the most perfect word there is.
                    百德以孝为先
                    Persevere in correct practice

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Let's get real!

                      Hello Wuji!

                      I believe that the term 'wu-gong' is appropriately used in the 'action and adventure' novels you refer to because it refers specifically to the extraordinary martial powers (wu-gong) of the extraordinary warriors portrayed in such stories. These unusual 'powers' and skills are either beyond the normal skills of normal martial arts practitioners, including famed Masters of past and present, or totally fictitious and non-existent. As such, it seems inappropriate to me to use this term as a general, genereic name in reference to Chinese martial art styles. It should remain in the domain of martial art fiction and 'wild history', and not be used in reference to 'real people' doing 'real' martial arts.

                      By comparison, instruction books written by famous Masters of the 19th and 20th Centuries most often use the term 'Chuan/Quan' or 'Chuan-Fa/Quan-Fa' in the titles of their books in reference to their specific styles, with regular use of the term 'Wu-Shu', in the Traditional sense, when generally referring to the martial arts as a whole.
                      Last edited by Sifu Stier; 2 March 2005, 02:57 PM.
                      http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Sihing Andrew for starting this thread .

                        Thanks also to everyone else who has made it so interesting to read .

                        " I think it's a good thing that traditionalists are united in their decision not to use the term Wushu. I hope this will help to eliminate some of the confusion surrounding the terminology. "

                        Hi Anthony Sihing ,

                        Unfortunately , in South Africa this is not really the case . I only know of a couple of schools in my country that offer " Wushu " but tons of schools that claim to teach " Genuine Shaolin Kung Fu " .

                        From what I have seen and experienced it is mostly the type of Kung Fu that throws students straight into Free Sparring without teaching them to apply the traditional Kung Fu Forms realisticaly in combat .

                        So really the problem for us South African's is , who to believe ?
                        That thought made me remind myself how glad I am to have found Sifu .

                        Best Wishes ,
                        Kevin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Is Kung Fu a Martial Art

                          Let us examine two things. Kung Fu itself existed prior to wu shu. Mainly because it was an exercise for the monks of the temple. 2nd, wu shu itself means Military Arts, or Martial Arts. So, in fact these two entities are just that. One can not exist without the other. Some Systems are Wu Shu and others Kung Fu. In Fact, If I had my way it would be Wu shu Kung Fu only. This definition would mean Very skillful Martial Arts. Any time you put fighting arts in this catagory they tend to lessen the true meaning of what you do. If you feel that it is a Martial Art, then so be it, it is. If you don't and you think that it is an exercise, then so be it. However, if you are teaching to the public choose one or the other to true with your peers.

                          Sifu White

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