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  • #61
    Yes, I think that is right - tension, as in too much tension, is bad. Of course, too little and you will be like a jelly fish! When people throw a punch, say, there's usually a lot of tension that isn't needed - in the muscles - just out of bad habit of over doing every movement which we do daily, generally, if not stopped. A good way to see that is wherever you are sat, just try and relax more - just feel how your body uses too much tension - more than it needs. Relax, then relax more... try it stood up - we can relax amazingly, and still kepp just enough tension to stay standing - but most people can't do that.

    All of that tension is there when you throw a punch, slowing it down, or making your moves sluggish, and unresponsive. After a while, you can feel it yourself - say, hitting a bag, you can feel that you could relax more and hit through the bag more. It's not easy - but awareness of the tension is a big step forwards - we become *mindful* of it.

    As for breathing, personally, I don;t feelt hat breathing should ever be *controlled* unless it is to stop hyper ventilating or abnormal breathing problems. During a fight, breathing, like everyhting else, should be natural, in my opinion. Controlling breathign obviously adds unnecessary tension to the diaphram. Man - how do you spell diaphram?? Aya!

    X

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    • #62
      Xia,

      Welcome to the forum. You've made a lot of interesting posts already. From what you've written, it appears that you have spent a lot more time than me learning CMA. I agree with you that we could all be more relaxed, both in sparring and everyday life.

      One thing that I don't understand, though, is how you could stay relaxed during a fight without controlling your breathing.
      During a fight, breathing, like everyhting else, should be natural, in my opinion.
      To me, the "natural" thing when you're in a fight is for your adrenaline to shoot up, your body to tense up, and your breathing to quicken. We train our breathing and our body so they are both controlled and relaxed during conflict. Eventually, I hope my natural response is to keep my breathing steady because it was ingrained through my practice, but until I reach that level I still need to be "in control" of these factors.

      If I misunderstood your post (internet communication being what it is) please clear up any misconceptions.

      -Adam

      P.S. There is a "g" in diaphragm.
      Adam Bailey
      Shaolin WahNam USA

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      • #63
        Damn! I knew there was a g inthere somewhere! Aya! Heh...

        Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying - and no, I don't in any way take that in the wrong way - I understand about the internet communication!

        This issue, like many issues, needs a sense of compromise - or, of seeing that elements of both sides are involved. It is perfectly possible to stay relaxed during a fight, even with natural breathing. However, as you rightly say, nerves and adrenelin willmake you breathe abnormally - hyper ventilating or unable to catch a breath. Also, after exertion people need to breathe more deeply, etc. However, controlling breathing, as in, deliberately breathing in for five seconds, then out for five seconds is not natural. In my view, everythign should be natural - breathe out on the punch - but also practice breathing in, ro not breathing - maybe you have to fight underwater??? Some people have!

        But, bizarre occurences aside, your aim, in my view, should be to breathe completely naturally - during training, during sparring, and during fighting - your body already knows exactly what to do - you just have to let it tell you - and the way to do that is tonot impose intellectual restrictions on it- just let it flow with what it does best - being a body. Obviously, the irony is that panic, or habit, or unusual movement can cause us to breathe abnormally, so we have to mindfully return to normal breathing - ehich means doing it deliberately, which contradicts natural breathing! Aya! But - that's how it's done... I see it as stripping away somethign unnecessary, rather than adding anything new, like an unnatural breathing ryhthm.

        Your body, quite naturally, knows exactly how to breathe without you ever needing to consciously think about it. However, mindfully noticing your natural breathing for long periods can also cause some very interesting and useful effects - but don't distort it by altering breathing unnaturally. Is my view. Hope that clears it up.


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        • #64
          Controlling breathign obviously adds unnecessary tension to the diaphram.
          Obvious? In my experience, regulating the breathing can relax not only the diaphragm, but the entire body. Exercises like "Lifting The Sky" and "Dantian Breathing" are good examples. In both exercises, we regulate the breathing, but we are more relaxed -- physically, emotionally, and mentally -- afterwards.

          During combat, we regulate our breathing in many ways. Sounds, like "Hite!" and "Yarrr!" not only help us to regulate our breathing, but more importantly, to regulate our energy. When we discharge force, we also control our breathing. Even keeping the mouth gently open while striking is a form of controlled breathing.
          Sifu Anthony Korahais
          www.FlowingZen.com
          (Click here to learn more about me.)

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Antonius View Post
            Obvious? In my experience, regulating the breathing can relax not only the diaphragm, but the entire body.
            Relaxation comes from mindfully relaxing, in my experience - not from breathing. Breathing can't relax the body - it can have a psychologically calming effect, but that usually occurs - in fights or panics - because a person has started to breathe abnormally, out of panic or fear, and as a step towards regaining natural breathing rhythm they deliberately take control of the breathing... but it should only be a stpe towards regaining natural breathing - in my view.



            If a person stands calmly, and breathes deeply, they will relax. If a person sits in a chair, lets go of worries and breathes naturally, they will relax. The body relaxes naturally when it is allowed to - in my experience - and breathing is only an aspect of that, not a cause.

            One of the most relaxing things is to simply consciously notice your natural breathing.

            Obviously, in ,my view, forcing anything - which must include forcing the breathing in to a non-natural pattern, is introducing tension in to the cardio-pulminary system, and worse still, diverting processing power from the brain in a completely unnecessary way.

            In my view, in martial arts, everything should be completely natural, because there is only one style for humans - human style - with seven or eight billion variations! And so, the most powerful way to use that style is to be naturally human, and flow with our natural way.

            Originally posted by Antonius View Post
            Exercises like "Lifting The Sky" and "Dantian Breathing" are good examples. In both exercises, we regulate the breathing, but we are more relaxed -- physically, emotionally, and mentally -- afterwards.

            During combat, we regulate our breathing in many ways. Sounds, like "Hite!" and "Yarrr!" not only help us to regulate our breathing, but more importantly, to regulate our energy. When we discharge force, we also control our breathing. Even keeping the mouth gently open while striking is a form of controlled breathing.
            It is important not to really keep the mouth open - if you get hit in the chin, it will break your jaw more easily, or slam your teeth together - also a chance that you will bite your tongue off - in my opinion.

            Even sounds issued should follow natural principles, in my view - everythign natural, notign forced - that is obviously the only way that genuine relaxation can be there. Sometimes we underestimate the power that human beings have when we use our natural abilities. Just like the savant that can do amazing sums, it is all natural aspects of our ability... compared to the person who tries to force their brain to work the sum out.

            X

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Xia View Post
              Breathing can't relax the body - it can have a psychologically calming effect
              Whats the difference?

              Chris

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              • #67
                It is important not to really keep the mouth open - if you get hit in the chin, it will break your jaw more easily, or slam your teeth together - also a chance that you will bite your tongue off - in my opinion.
                I disagree. It is important to keep your mouth open so that you don't injure yourself before you even get hit. Keeping the mouth closed while discharging force will lead to internal blockages. But since you don't believe in internal force, that's not a problem for you.

                The point you make about the jaw is a common one, and once again reveals your lack of experience with internal force. Worrying about the jaw is something that external martial artists do, and it is legitimate. However, we in Shaolin Wahnam train differently.

                We train not to get hit even once. If someone with internal force hits your jaw, it doesn't matter if your mouth is open or closed. To us, it's like saying that we should close our eyelids when someone strikes our eyes. The eyelids, of course, will not protect you. Even if someone doesn't have internal force, the could have a razor blade, or a weapon. Closing the jaw will not help us in these situations.

                Keeping the jaw relaxed and the mouth slighly open is a better solution. Doing this not only helps to release negative energy, but it also has a cascading effect of relaxation throughout the body and mind. As you have said, it's important to relax during combat. Keeping the mouth gently open is an important way to stay relaxed, which helps us to maintain the six harmonies. Maintaining the six harmonies is the best way to avoid getting hit.

                In short, we in Shaolin Wahnam don't train in a way that assumes we'll be hit in the jaw. Rather, we train in a way that helps us avoid getting hit in the first place.
                Last edited by Antonius; 17 December 2006, 03:10 PM.
                Sifu Anthony Korahais
                www.FlowingZen.com
                (Click here to learn more about me.)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Antonius
                  During combat, we regulate our breathing in many ways. Sounds, like "Hite!" and "Yarrr!" not only help us to regulate our breathing, but more importantly, to regulate our energy. When we discharge force, we also control our breathing.
                  Keeping the mouth closed while discharging force will lead to internal blockages.
                  Sifu,

                  You beat me to my 2nd point. I guess I should have gotten up earlier. (timing and spacing )

                  -Adam
                  Adam Bailey
                  Shaolin WahNam USA

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    I disagree. It is important to keep your mouth open so that you don't injure yourself before you even get hit.

                    Nothign wrong with disagreeing! People are always dissing disagreement, as if it is disagreement that causes all the trouble - when most times it is the opposite! *We agree your religion is wrong....* and so on....


                    You mean injure oneself, by the act of fa li or other energy release? How do you hold in gum shields, in that case?

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Keeping the mouth closed while discharging force will lead to internal blockages. But since you don't believe in internal force, that's not a problem for you.
                    Well, I probably do very similar types of movement to you, but just explain it in a different way. Did you watch the video of Chen Xiao Wang issuing force? If you are that powerful, you can't have your jaw hanging open - the movement would jolt it. But, you probably don't mean hanging open - it's just a misunderstanding. We probably mean the same thing.

                    The real people to ask are the people who take punches to the face - pro boxers, and they will tell you, you can't have a loose jaw - it would snap. That stands to reason. But yes, relaxed, natural - not clamped, lol, but not loose.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    The point you make about the jaw is a common one, and once again reveals your lack of experience with internal force.
                    Well i tell you what, I'm quite experienced at having the gloves on and sparring - so I know what it feels like to be hit in the face, and from that experience I can tell you, jaw should not be open. However, obviously, if you are shouting - and I shout as well - you have to open your mouth. But as a standard, your jaw should - in my view - be relaxed, but closed, with your tongue tucked behind your front teeth. Mouth slightly, naturall open, as in standing pole - but no strict rules, just natural, comfortable, dictated by circumstance.

                    It's just different views - discard or adapt as seems fit.


                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Worrying about the jaw is something that external martial artists do, and it is legitimate. However, we in Shaolin Wahnam train differently.
                    When you say external martial artists, from your point of view, that must include people like boxers, thai boxers, san shou fighters etc. Have you really considered the exceptional level that some of these people have? I mean, seriously? Are you telling me that your training way supercedes those people? I'm not saying it doesn't - but I tell you what, I simply have to know if this is true - I have to see it. I can not miss this opportunity to improve if it is true.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    We train not to get hit even once.
                    Do you mean that no one could hit you, or just that you train not to be hit? Boxers train not to be hit. Everyone gets hit at some point. It's all part of training. In fact, in my view, one of the most important aspects of training a student is to dis-appoint their expectation of never being hit - supernatural skills - and learning that they can take a hit, how to take a hit, and not to be afraid of it.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    If someone with internal force hits your jaw, it doesn't matter if your mouth is open or closed.
                    Well, fair enough - the same applies equally to boxers, karate fighters, tae kwon do kicks - you name it.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    To us, it's like saying that we should close our eyelids when someone strikes our eyes. The eyelids, of course, will not protect you. Even if someone doesn't have internal force, the could have a razor blade, or a weapon. Closing the jaw will not help us in these situations.
                    These are all false analogies, Antonius. One can show a block for a kick, but then someone can say *Yes, but if they have a gun it won't work...* Of course - horses for courses - different techniques for different ways.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Keeping the jaw relaxed and the mouth slighly open is a better solution.
                    Well, we're probably talking about the same thing. I don't clamp my jaw, and my lips are usually slightly open - but it is always a relaxed, natural posture. Maybe I have appointed in my mind an exaggerated view of what you meant?

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Doing this not only helps to release negative energy,
                    I don't know what you mean by negative energy.

                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    but it also has a cascading effect of relaxation throughout the body and mind. As you have said, it's important to relax during combat. Keeping the mouth gently open is an important way to stay relaxed, which helps us to maintain the six harmonies. Maintaining the six harmonies is the best way to avoid getting hit.
                    Well, training properly is the best way to avoid getting hit, in my experience. Relaxation comes in time - but, little tricks do help that happen. Opening the mouth doesn't cause relaxation in any direct way, but sure, if you are tense, untensing will help - obviously!


                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    In short, we in Shaolin Wahnam don't train in a way that assumes we'll be hit in the jaw.
                    Have you considered considering ideas from other martial arts? No style is isolated in the field of wushu - there are merits in every style. Personally, I feel you must assume you will be hit. Otherwise, when you are, how will you cope?


                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Rather, we train in a way that helps us avoid getting hit in the first place.
                    Well, so does every one, Antonius!

                    Peace,
                    X

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Adam B View Post
                      Sifu,

                      You beat me to my 2nd point. I guess I should have gotten up earlier. (timing and spacing )

                      -Adam
                      Adam, how do you think it could cause internal blockages?

                      X

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                      • #71
                        Adam, how do you think it could cause internal blockages?
                        I know it causes blockages because I can feel it.

                        I tried throwing an explosive Black Tiger (roughly a reverse punch) with my mouth closed and it gives a distinct and uncomfortable feeling in the center of my chest. The feeling persisted until I did remedial chi kung, lifting the sky and spontaneous chi flow.

                        -Adam
                        Adam Bailey
                        Shaolin WahNam USA

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                        • #72
                          Ok who wants an argument!

                          Only joking, but who wants an interesting debate about UFC and some of the issues discussed earlier with Darkwolf (who I think sadly no longer posts here which is a shame because he made points based on experience which was nice.)

                          We were talking earlier about who wins between a top boxer and a martial artist etc. Darkwolf referred to Kimbo who at that time was a bare-knuckle streetfighter (search Kimbo Slice on youtube). Kimbo had lost a bareknuckle match to Irish American Boston police officer and short-lived UFC fighter Sean Gannon.

                          However since then a lot has happened and most of it has reinforced my beliefs.
                          And I think Kimbo Slice who has now entered the UFC is going to reinforce them further.
                          I think the biggest problem and nost annoying thing in martial arts is people who have trained martial arts for 5 minutes thinking that they can beat anyone who hasn't done martial arts or who has just done boxing. It drives me mad - on the street I live, there are at least 5 of my neighbours who have never trained at all who would destroy the vast majority of martial artists.

                          But now this man Kimbo has entered the UFC I wish him well and hope that he helps more of us martial artists to "Know our enemy".

                          Here is a video of him versus Tank Abbott (not Tito Ortiz like the video says!)
                          铁托Ortiz, Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell对和恐惧Kimbo! Tito Ortiz, Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell vs and fears Kimbo! 拳击clicking these links leads to entertainment:http...


                          How far do you guys think he'll go? I think he'll take a few scalps, and it'll take a top operator to take him down/out.

                          I also note that Chuck Liddell has done really well in the UFC using mainly striking, and that ground and pound as opposed to jujitsu has become the prevalent strategy.

                          I still think that a young Mike Tyson would beat anyone in the history of the UFC.
                          Tank, Kimbo and Chuck go some way to prove my point - they do quite well based mainly on punching - yet they obviously aren't THAT good at punching or they would fight in professional boxing where they could make MUCH more money.

                          But I hope that the martial artists eventually prevail over Kimbo, and that eventually the UFC and its fighters (which I love) overtake professional boxing as the premier fighting sport.

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                          • #73
                            Hi DrunkenBoxer,

                            You're a big fan of Tyson like me! At his peak he was awesome - his bobbing and weaving with the uppercuts that would take your head off in his early days. His destruction of Berbick (RIP) was scary. I wish he had met Lewis in his prime. Not a heavyweight to touch him in those couple of years when he was on form. Unfortunately the Heavyweight division has been the worst in boxing for a long time now - what do you reckon about Haye?

                            I've just got into UFC and am really enjoying watching some of the top guys fight each other (and they do seem to fight each other - for now at least!)

                            Cheers
                            Dougie

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                            • #74
                              Almost forgot about Kimbo - ok he isn't Muhammed Ali but he is an extremely big, extremely tough streetfighter. An "ooh -i've trained martial arts" guy's worst nightmare for sure. He is at least training properly for UFC and is now big box office. He'll collect his big payday once he fights one of the top guys

                              A good example of a martial artist defeating a streetfighter is Jorge vs Ray (Ray was one of Kimbo's streetfighting "stable")

                              The first part shows Ray fighting a big untrained guy who he beats - he then goes on to fight the small trained guy...

                              New 2007 StreetFightsRay vs Jose - Ray vs Jorge(175pounds)Including a KOSublimeDirectory.com


                              They had a rematch and the result was the same
                              Last edited by Dougie; 24 June 2008, 10:47 PM.

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                              • #75
                                Hey Paul

                                One thing to bare in mind is that Chuck is famous for his sprawl counter to grappler's, if you wanted to do well in MMA as a stand up fighter you have to have world class defence against grappler's then your no longer just a boxer you become an MMA fighter.

                                Also Kimbo has been trained by MMA legend Bas Rutten an incredible fighter, so he could do well!

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