Sparring With Boxers and Wrestlers

[miketoftejr]

I read about Sifu Wong talking about how one is totally relaxed when sparring in Shaolin Kung Fu or Tai Chi. This makes sense if each practitioner is using an art that is basically the same speed. However, for those who have used Shaolin Kung Fu to spar boxers, wrestlers, Muay Thai kickboxers, or street brawlers, Have you been able to relax the same way you are able to relax against another Kung Fu or Tai Chi practitioner or does one panic because the person is coming at them at a much faster speed?

[Darryl]

Factors

Hi Mike,

I would answer both yes and no for the following reasons.

There are many factors to consider and handspeed is only one of them. A large part of the training is to allow the practitioner to relax regardles of the circumstances - these can vary from being late for work, getting stuck in traffic, being involved in an arguement, being put under physical pressure or having lots of external stimulai. As with all skills, it takes practice and methodology.

The main benefit of such training is allowing the practitioner to stay calm (or calmer) in an unfamiliar situation, in this case your example. When faced with familiar situations, it is far easier to stay relaxed. As a practitioner develops and grows within the art, their level of relaxation grows accordingly, regardless of the external situation.

[Brendan_OT]

This makes sense if each practitioner is using an art that is basically the same speed.

I think you underestimate the sparring speed of some kung fu students.

Are you talking about sparring or fighting with students of other disciplines? With the exception of street brawlers, all the other fighting types you list have rules. How can a kung fu student "spar" with a boxer? Would they have to wear gloves? Could they use kicks? I don't understand how that would be much use for either party. The kung fu student would have to deal with high and middle hand strikes, and the boxer would have nothing in his skill set to deal with kicks, grips or felling.

[miketoftejr]

Reply

Brenda wrote,

"Are you talking about sparring or fighting with students of other disciplines? With the exception of street brawlers, all the other fighting types you list have rules. How can a kung fu student "spar" with a boxer? Would they have to wear gloves? Could they use kicks? I don't understand how that would be much use for either party. The kung fu student would have to deal with high and middle hand strikes, and the boxer would have nothing in his skill set to deal with kicks, grips or felling."

1. One of Sifu Wong's students taught Kung Fu to a boxer and sparred against them, while the student used his boxing skills and the teacher used his Kung Fu skills. The Wahnam instructor (who will remain nameless unless he chooses to identify himself)had told me that sparring the boxer was difficult and challenging.

2.No, they would not have to wear gloves, nor would they be limited to boxing rules because street sparring.

3.It would be of use because Sifu Wong has written in his books that many Kung Fu practitioners lose to boxers because of the speed and deceptive hands of the boxers. On this site, he has a pattern to be used against boxers where he teaches his students to practice it for six months and then try it out on a boxer.

4.Just because one has done the sport of boxing does not mean that they cannot street fight. Many boxers were street fighters before they were boxers. I think many traditionalist Kung Fu practitioners act as if boxers would fight by the sports' rules in the street, which is simply not true. Many also act as if boxers are stupid and do not know how to fight in a real life situation.

[cnholmes]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by miketoftejr
I think many traditionalist Kung Fu practitioners act as if boxers would fight by the sports' rules in the street, which is simply not true. Many also act as if boxers are stupid and do not know how to fight in a real life situation.

This isn't the attitude I have found when learning from Shaolin Wahnam Instructors: they continually press the point that you must always keep your defences intact against an opponent of any art. I don't know about anyone else, I'm afraid.

The fact that facing a boxer is difficult and demanding doesn't mean kungfu is not effective: it means the boxer is a good fighter.

I think the difference is whether Kungfu is effective against boxing, rather than is boxing ineffective against kungfu (because of the constraints of rules).

Perhaps I'm biased: the only boxers I've ever met (including two semi-professional boxers) are very intelligent men.

Regards,
Chris.

[Antonius]

1. One of Sifu Wong's students taught Kung Fu to a boxer and sparred against them, while the student used his boxing skills and the teacher used his Kung Fu skills. The Wahnam instructor (who will remain nameless unless he chooses to identify himself)had told me that sparring the boxer was difficult and challenging.

Are you referring to me?

[darkwolf]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by miketoftejr


1. One of Sifu Wong's students taught Kung Fu to a boxer and sparred against them, while the student used his boxing skills and the teacher used his Kung Fu skills. The Wahnam instructor (who will remain nameless unless he chooses to identify himself)had told me that sparring the boxer was difficult and challenging.

[/B]

Hi all,

This is my first post here, but I'm a good friend of Anthony.

I’m a Boxer by trade, but something was missing from that, so I started gungfu. In my experience, NO BOXER CAN BEAT A MARTIAL ARTIST IF THEY BOTH ARE AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAME AND IN THE SAME WEIGHT CLASS.

There is no winning or losing in sparring. It’s a tool to learn how to become relaxed and to think clear. I was taught in sparring you help your partner. If he’s bad at defending kicks, you throw kicks. If he is bad at defending hand attacks, you feed him hand attacks. If you look at it as, "I won you lost," then you are fighting and you have the concept of sparring all wrong. Sparring is a tool, not a fight.

I'm saying all this in response to mister Mike. I'm the guy you referred to, the boxer who sparred with Anthony. Anthony is not my gungfu teacher, but he does teach me Chi Gong and we have sparred. For the most part, we are just good friends. Therefore, it rather bothers me when I read this thread.

Take nothing away from Anthony. He is very good at what he does! A boxer can’t box if he can’t see! Know what I mean Anthony!

[Brendan_OT]

2.No, they would not have to wear gloves, nor would they be limited to boxing rules because street sparring.

I don't know, I guess we have different definitions of "sparring" vs. "fighting". But I think darkwolf answered that better than I could already.

3.It would be of use because Sifu Wong has written in his books that many Kung Fu practitioners lose to boxers because of the speed and deceptive hands of the boxers. On this site, he has a pattern to be used against boxers where he teaches his students to practice it for six months and then try it out on a boxer.

I wouldn't say that the entire context of what Sifu teaches and writes is adequately expressed here. I believe Sifu also says that many "Kung Fu" practitioners are also not practicing genuine Kung Fu, and that many of them have no concept of the proper martial application of Kung Fu forms. I think that would be more to the point of what I believe Sifu was saying than to say that a student of genuine Kung Fu would be hard-pressed to defend themselves against a boxer during sparring.

4. Just because one has done the sport of boxing does not mean that they cannot street fight. Many boxers were street fighters before they were boxers. I think many traditionalist Kung Fu practitioners act as if boxers would fight by the sports' rules in the street, which is simply not true. Many also act as if boxers are stupid and do not know how to fight in a real life situation.

I don't quite know where you're drawing the conclusion that Kung Fu students think boxers are stupid. I certainly hope that you don't get it on this board, because all the things I've read here about boxing don't indicate anything about the intelligence of the practitioner. Also, if we're going to be able to discuss this matter with any real purpose, we need to distinguish between people using skills from a given art/sport in a street fight, and people using skills from a given art/sport in a structured manner (i.e. sparring).

[Antonius]

Good to see you here T. You are most welcome.

For the record, T (aka darkwolf) is an excellent boxer. His skills are some of the best I've seen up close, and they are not limited to ring rules. It's a good thing he's a nice guy with a heart of gold otherwise he could be dangerous.

Mike, I'm assuming that I mentioned something to you during one of our casual phone conversations. However, I think you may have taken what I said out of context. I think it might also be worth mentioning that we've never met.

T is a good friend of mine. Sparring him is indeed "difficult and challenging" because he is a skillful fighter. He has the mindset of a warrior, the speed of a boxer, the deception of a street fighter, and the understanding of a few years of Kungfu on top of it all.

Maybe I'm wrong, but your tone makes it seem as if there is some sort of shame in me -- a Shaolinquan practitioner -- admitting that someone like T can be formidable. I don't see it that way at all. T is a good fighter and an even better person. I consider myself lucky to have the opportunity to train with him and others like him.

Our sparring was not competitive. It was sparring, which means it was a time for practice. In fact, T was doing me a favor. I specifically asked him to attack me using only boxing (and street fighting) so that I could practice countering in particular ways.

Sure I got tagged with the jab a few times. They are fast and deceptive, but luckily they do not do much damage, even in a real fight. Does that mean he won? Yes. Did I also win? Yes. We both won because we had a great practice session.

People who practice competition arts and martial sports often have a difficult time understanding the lack of competition in traditional martial arts. That's cool. That's why we practice different arts.

[Emiko H]

Hello, everyone.

I agree that sparring and fighting are truly different, To find a training partner who understands how to be constructive and supportive is something not to be taken forgranted. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the way the sparring between Anthony and DarkWolf has been described. It strikes me as an ideal approach that would benefit both parties.

Best,

Emiko

[miketoftejr]

Reply

First, I believe that what I said was misunderstood.

In response to Antonius, you were among three people I know. I was not trying to say that you lost to a boxer, but that you found it challenging. In our conversation, we both agreed that sparring is not the same as fighting, but a tool to help one develop their skills. That's all. You may also find sparring with any skilled practitioner of any art regardless of what art he is, so this is not limited to boxers. I am not trying to discredit your Kung Fu skills or trying to say that you are less skilled than boxers. That would be foolish of me because I have never actually seen you in action and I would never have asked you for lessons if I did not trust your ability. I was not trying to shame you at all. In my defense, however; I don't think the fact that we have never met has anything to do with this topic.

Second, I would like to clarify that I am not trying to disparage Kung Fu. If it seems that way, it is because I don't believe that anyone on the forum knows me personally. I am regularly engaging with Kung Fu practitioners who argue that a good boxer will beat a good martial artist any day. I tell them that a good Kung Fu practitioner will win in a real fight situation if his skills are highly developed and he has developed internal force.

In general, boxers (if they just use boxing) have no defense against a good side kick to the knee or wrestling takedown. However, if he is also a good street fighter or cross-trained, which many are, he will.

I apologize to anyone who I may have offended on this forum as this was not my intention. My intention was to bring up a topic of discussion that In have interest in and would increase my knowledge. I have never seen people use Kung Fu and stances against boxers, wrestlers, or Muay Thai Kickboxers. I wanted to learn from someone who has and if possible see them in action. That's all.

[Antonius]

Fair enough, Mike. No worries.

To answer your original question: yes, I am able to relax against boxers. However, I do need to make adjustments, particularly for the jab. For example, I have found that using a Bow Arrow stance as a poise is better for me because it gives me more room to swallow the attack.

I don't have a lot of experience sparring wrestlers, though I have sparred a few grapplers. In my experience, it's very tricky to spar these people, but not for the reasons one might think. The challenge, for me, is not in dealing with wrestling or grappling per se, but in dealing with it in a way suitable for friendly sparring.

For some reason, none of my defenses against wrestling and grappling are compassionate: eye gouges as they come in; palm strikes to the top or back of the head; phoenix-eye fists to the neck; elbows across the temple area, etc. These are not friendly techniques.

Furthermore, wrestlers and grapplers tend to be of a certain mindset. Their arts have no speculative material. Winning and losing is very clear because one person taps out or gets pinned. This competitive aspect is not present in traditional martial arts.

If I spar a wrestler and place a palm on the back of his head as he comes in, what will happen? In my experience, he won't stop unless I hurt him (which I'm not interested in doing). A debate will ensue, which usually gets nowhere.

So once again it comes down to a question or a debate about force. The wrestlers say they could take the strike on the way in, and I say I don't think they could. Until I find a wrestler as open-minded as T, I'm happy to leave them be.

[Emiko H]

How about a sumo-wrestle next time?

[Emiko H]

On a more serious note...

I do prefer the Bow and Arrow Stance myself, especially if the opponent is large. This gives me plenty of leverage to either swallow or intercept the attack.

[drunken boxer]

Brendan wrote "the boxer would have nothing in his skill set to deal with kicks, grips or felling."

I think he was joking, but anyway, here is my opinion - because boxing in general is widely practised for competition and is real within its rules (ie you wear gloves, but generally, even in sparring the idea is to do maximum damage in minimum time where possible) in my experience the AVERAGE boxer is considerably faster, more powerful and better at fighting than the AVERAGE martial artist. (Note: AVERAGE! I’m not talking about Royce Gracie, or instructors, black belts etc! I’m definitely not talking about myself either, I could be beaten by a rolled-up newspaper!)
So when an average practitioner of martial arts tries to kick, grip or fell an average boxer, the boxer will react faster than the martial artist, maybe use footwork to get out of reach of whatever attack it is, then dart back in again too fast for the martial artist to react then possibly knock him out with the first punch if he has enough power, or punch and retreat again, or stun him enough with the first fast punch that he can then land 5 or 6 continuous unchallenged heavier blows, or however many it takes.
What I’m saying is the guy will usually be knocked out long before he even considers any kicking, felling or gripping.
With, of course, a few notable exceptions! I also believe (and this may sound ridiculous) that if 10 boxers (even good ones) attacked a kungfu MASTER, he could beat them all at the same time, like swatting flies!
Mainly what I’m getting at is that boxers are generally formidable opponents, that shouldn’t be taken lightly, and that in my experience most boxers have a level of combat ability higher than that of most martial artists. And that you need to reach a good skill level in martial arts to be able to beat boxers. Basically, I think martial artists have superior techniques, but boxers are generally more skilful in applying their techniques.
Well, I have probably somehow offended both martial artists and boxers all around the world with that post (even though it wasn’t the intention) so I think I’d better be off now!