"Over Training in Chi Kung and Kung Fu "

[drfoong]

Dear Shaolin wahnam family,
Over training Seem to be the most talk about topic in Shaolin Wahnam Family. I guess most of us practicing either chi kung and/or Kung Fu may have atleast once or twice over trainned . I wish to share and get some valuable experience and guidance of the following questions. What will be the most effective way to avoid over training ? If we are over trainned what are the good remedies suitable to over come over training?.

In my many years experience using Chi Kung for healing people, it is evident that the least power chi kung or low level chi kung practice could heal much faster and more effective in comparison with high level chi kung or powerful chi kung. I wish to know why? and What are the reasons that low level chi kung is better in healing of sickness. Having said that, I wish to qualify our shaolin wahnam "low level chi kung" is very high level or powerful chi kung in comparison to other chi kung school of practice. Your suggestion and comment is very valuable for shaolin wahnam practisioner to safe guard from over trainned.

Best regards,

Dr Foong

[Alex McLeod]

Interesting questions Dr. Foong. I would like to take a crack at them.

First, let's assume that the Cosmic Union, or Source, Divine, God, etc, is like an electrical source that puts out trillions of gigawatts of power at very high voltage and amperage. Now a human body is like a 50 watt light bulb, and the mind and energy bodies are like the regulating circuitry drawing the correct amount of electrical energy from the Cosmos so that the body doesn't burn out.

There are certain things that one can do to upgrade the body, or slowly increasing the energy levels can also cause the body to upgrade it's energy tolerance.

One of the primary things I have noticed in myself is that the more energy flowing, the less tolerant of blockages the body becomes. This is explained by the analogy of driving. If you are going 20 mph and bump into a tree, oh well, you've just lightly dented your car. The same thing at 80 mph is deadly for you, the car and the tree.

As a result of this, the lower the energy flow while healing, the better, to a certain point. Obviously there has to be some free energy in the system to wash away the blockages.

I used to think that the trapped emotions were part of the bodily blockages, but I now think that they are part of the system that regulates what energy enters the system.

To prevent over training, I think the best option is to ensure the body is strong enough to handle the energy flow. I have recommended Golden Bridge with the intention that the body become strong enough to handle the energy flow. I don't think that the divine is so limited that it requires the form to strengthen the body, but the form is the best for the purpose.

I'd love to see other ideas and methods for overcoming overtraining as well.

[drfoong]

Dear Alex,

Thank you for the very interesting and valuable comment with suggestions. I like the anology part of your respond. The main reason I started this post is thinking of compiling and share a handbook or guideline for Shaolin wahanm chi Kung and Kung Fu practisioner as a reference. I am aware there have been much talk and guidance within the shaolin wahnam family on the topic of over training. But i am not sure there is a consolidated reference, where we could use as a hand book or by a click of a button. Some other very importnat guidance I have learnt from Garndmaster Wong are for example reduce the intensity of the practice and reduce the duration of practice. As far as I know only our school of chi kung and Kung fu has the issue of over training. Does any one know of other have simmilar issue?

I think there are numerous questions link to over training which may be useful for us to understand.
1. Over training is not a good feeling, it could effect our emotion, Physical and mental, how true is this?
2. Too much over trainned, does it effect our health?
3. Prolong over training is it harmful to us?

I hope to receive more suggestion and comment.

Best regards

Dr Foong

[sancrica]

Dear Shaolin Wahnam Family,

I would like to thank Dr Foong Sidai for starting this thread and I would also like to thank all its participants.

Some while ago Leo Sidai started another wonderful thread related to over-training and over-cleansing that can be of great help for this particular thread:

https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?12125-Over-Training-and-Over-Cleansing

I personally found it to be very useful. Maybe we can use it as a reference in order to better answer the questions asked on this thread:

I think there are numerous questions link to over training which may be useful for us to understand.
1. Over training is not a good feeling, it could effect our emotion, Physical and mental, how true is this?
2. Too much over trainned, does it effect our health?
3. Prolong over training is it harmful to us?

With Love, Care and Shaolin Salute,

Santi

[MiguelS]

Overtraining

Hello all,

So in my case I overtrain very very easily. Sometimes five repetitions of lifting the sky and 1 round of sitting one finger zen is enough to start the feeling of overtraining. I, at some point, was overtraining pretty much everyday. I therefore consider myself somewhat of a scientific experiment in the matter. The first time I overtrained was when I did turning head with the eyes closed. I easily slip into a deeper chi kung state of mind which then deepens the level. After doing 3 repetitions of turning head my heart started pounding, my skin was on fire, and my face felt like it was burning off (lovely symptoms indeed), this was clearly a blockage being clear away to fast (the chronic neck pain I suffered from for several years). Overtraining can take on a thousand symptoms. The classic feeling very tired and a bit bad after training, the "why do I feel angry for no reason" or even just feeling tired but extremely peaceful. If you sleep for 10 hours and still feel tired, you are overtraining. If you have a recurrent pain in one or several spots (my arm and chest for example), probably overtraining. If you start your kung fu practice and just feel like you don't have energy to do it, overtraining. Best advice I have ever heard, "sloooooowwwww down". Do whatever makes you feel good, not bad, in my case I love training kung fu and chi kung, but even if 5 reps of lifting the sky and 1 round of sitting one finger zen makes me feel overtrained I need to adjust my training. Maybe it is simply, smiling from the heart for only a second, or doing all your exercises with the eyes open, whatever you do lower the level. And my advice for those who overtrain easily, lower the level by a lot and wait for the body to adjust. Lowering the level is simply just telling yourself, I won't go too deep into a chi kung state of mind. Sigung always says don't worry, don't intellectualise and enjoy. Albeit this is the best advice I have ever hear, however, the problem is in some form I do enjoy overtraining. But it makes life a little more difficult, so it is not only about enjoying the practice but also, enjoying the correct benefits of the practice. My advice doesn't apply to everyone, but I know there are others who have experienced the exact same thing. Hope it helps
All the best,
Miguel (Shaolin Wahnam Netherlands)

[Alex McLeod]

As far as I know only our school of chi kung and Kung fu has the issue of over training. Does any one know of other have simmilar issue?

I don't know if this counts as a school of qigong, but traditional yoga schools that still deal with the energy aspect know that it's bad for the body if one realizes union before the body is able to contain that level of energy.

They state that unless one intimately knows the workings of the body, or has a severely important purpose, the time of full realization and leaving the body are the same.

Considering that our qigong descends directly from Damo's, and by extension the Buddha's, yoga, and that it is designed for attaining realization, it's not surprising that the body doesn't always handle it when practiced as diligently as one in the past would.

My estimation is that the methods for enabling the body to handle the energy load were either lost in the distant past, or never passed to the Shaolin monks by Damo. Or they were, and they're hidden in plain sight.

[David Langford]

In my own practice overtraining only occurs around the time of courses. At one point I trained 3 hours a day without overtraining. My secret was that my Sifu taught me to progress gradually. In the modern language of our school, my Sifu had me train at 5% for the first year, then maybe 10% thereafter when he taught me things like golden bridge and one finger shooting zen. The number one reason I have avoided overtraining: For the first two years I trained at a "low level" (that was actually very internal compared to other schools of chi kung I have had the opportunity to learn.) At around two years in I was training 45 minutes of Zhan Zhuang, 20 minutes of flexibility, fifteen minutes of force training and chi kung, and an hour of application and sequence training, then another hour of fun in the evening. Then the fire nation attacked...I learned Sinew Met, Bone Marrow Cleansing, and Iron Wire at the Legacy of Bodhidharma in 2012. For a month after my training kept raising and raising its level internally speaking until I was around 200% of the course. I realized this was not correct, that overtraining was incorrect training. I lowered my level again and refocused on absorbing all the course material at a gradual rate over the next two years. From then on I have only over trained during courses. It might take a bit longer to see results by training at a lower level, but it is worth it. It also still has our modern convenience of steady, instead of haphazard, progression because we focus on skills.

Taisipak Kai has a good quote I read, "Only train when you can smile." I paraphrase.

Nowadays I am getting a good hour of training in almost every day and I feel great.

[Karol]

Overtraining have never been an issue to me before Ive got Small Universe from Sigung. In the past I could practice almost how much I wanted. Lately, since January 2018 I had to first recognize overtraining and its symptoms, and then learn to adjust my practice.

I have to say that its not easy, sometimes just short while can make huge difference. Considering how enjoyable our practice is (especially the stance training and my favorite Golden Bridge) I had to set in front of me a watch instead of counting lazily breaths as I used to before.

In the past if I got any symptoms of overtraining, they arrived slowly, step by step and builded up day after day. Now its like a drop a bomb. Pang, and its there. And its stronger than I ever expected. Overtraining affects mostly my Shen, but after experiencing the physical aspect of it I have to admit that its not a pleasurable experience.

If I remember correctly Sipak Santi wrote about similar experiences after Small Universe somewhere on the forum?

[drfoong]

Dear All,

Thank you for some excellent suggestion and experience in overtraining, I believe the information is very benefitial for future Shaolin Wahnam practicioner. I notice there have been many cases and in fact I myself have had expereince in many occasion after attend Grandmaster Wong course the tendency of over training is higher.

My opinion is that in the course Grandmaster has incorporated and compressed 1-2 years secret and essence into a week or so course to teach us. After the course despite being told to spread out the practice into a year or so but we often want to excell and the practice becomes intense. The progression format suggested by some feedback in this forum is excellent. "start from small percentage to higher percentage".

It is relatively easy, to apply the progression format in Kung Fu practice. But how about in Chi Kung for healing? The pateint may be facing life and death situation. It would be wonderful to hear some comment and suggestion with respect to safe guard over training for Chi Kung Healing.


Warmest regards,

Dr Foong

[sancrica]

Dear Shaolin Wahnam,

Overtraining have never been an issue to me before Ive got Small Universe from Sigung. In the past I could practice almost how much I wanted. Lately, since January 2018 I had to first recognize overtraining and its symptoms, and then learn to adjust my practice.

I have to say that its not easy, sometimes just short while can make huge difference. Considering how enjoyable our practice is (especially the stance training and my favorite Golden Bridge) I had to set in front of me a watch instead of counting lazily breaths as I used to before.

In the past if I got any symptoms of overtraining, they arrived slowly, step by step and builded up day after day. Now its like a drop a bomb. Pang, and its there. And its stronger than I ever expected. Overtraining affects mostly my Shen, but after experiencing the physical aspect of it I have to admit that its not a pleasurable experience.

If I remember correctly Sipak Santi wrote about similar experiences after Small Universe somewhere on the forum?

Dear Sijat, I mentioned about the Small Universe effect on post #17 at Over-Training and Over-Cleansing:

Since the Small and Universe Course I estimate that, by doing the same practice, I have around 10 times better results. It is not easy to cope with that. Even by merely practicing "Dancing Butterfly" I find myself cleansing sometimes too fast.

After Small and Big Universe Course I had to completely redesign my practice as, after that course, the way I used to practiced was no longer the most beneficial way of practicing for me. Not entering too deep into a Chi Kung state of mind has been the best tool for regulating my practice and keeping it beneficial instead of harmful.

With Love, Care and Shaolin Salute,

Santi

[Nessa]

Dear Dr Foong,

thank you for raising these questions. I think they will benefit many chi kung and kungfu practitioners.


Question 1. : What will be the most effective way to avoid over training ?

In my own experience and what my students have experienced, the most effective way to avoid over-training is to practice in a more physical and lower level wether in chi kung or kungfu. In general, my kungfu students tend to over-train more than chi kung students.

How can we train in a more physical way? It’s very simple: just focus more on the physical aspects, such as your form, execution of movement etc. In kungfu you can train more combat sequences and kungfu sets, or weapon sets. Sparring is great in using your energy, if you have accumulated too much.
For chi kung practitioners it’s the same: practice in a more physical level, without going too deeply in to chi kung state of mind.

And outside of practice: use your energy! Go hiking or swimming or whatever it is you enjoy doing and put your heart in to it. See your friends and family and spend time with them. Do good.

In my experience the students that are most likely to over-train are the most enthustiastic ones. They start off exited and practice too much. It does not take long for over-training or over-cleansing to creep in.
Intellectualizing is also one way to start over-training (or should I say deviating?).


Question 2: If we are over trainned what are the good remedies suitable to over come over training?.


If we find ourselves over-training the easiest way to remedy it is to practice less.
If we find it hard to practice at a lower level, simply train less, in time and intensity. You can practice once a day, or if the over-training is severe, even keep a little break in practice and continue slowly when you feel better.
The best way to know you are practicing correctly is to check how you feel after your practice session: if you feel good, you’ve practiced right. If you feel tired, nauseas, uncomfortable or experience pain, it’s likely you are over-training.

If you don’t heed the first warning signs of over-training and just continue to push through, you may soon start feeling very bad. It’s better to progress slowly and safely rather than on and off.



Question 3: In my many years experience using Chi Kung for healing people, it is evident that the least power chi kung or low level chi kung practice could heal much faster and more effective in comparison with high level chi kung or powerful chi kung. I wish to know why? and What are the reasons that low level chi kung is better in healing of sickness.


In my opinion low level chi kung (but still genuine chi kung, like ours) is better in healing sickness and overcoming problems because usually sick people have very little energy, or the energy is blocked. So generating too much energy at once will just result in aggravating the sickness or blockage. Once the energy is flowing smoothly and health is restored, you can start generating more energy.


Best wishes,

Nessa

[Bernhard]

Intellectualizing is also one way to start over-training (or should I say deviating?).

Dear Nessa Sipak
How and Why is it that intellectualizing can lead to overtraining? What should a student do to overcome and avoid overtraining due to intellectualizing?

with Shaolin salute o\
Bernhard

[Nessa]

Dear Bernhard,


You asked:
”How and Why is it that intellectualizing can lead to overtraining? What should a student do to overcome and avoid overtraining due to intellectualizing?”

I don’t know if it’s correct of me to say that intellectualizing can lead to over-training. A better way to phrase it would be: I have noticed that excessive intellectualizing and over-training often go hand in hand.
(This is not to say that those who do not intellectualize don’t over-train, or that those who have trouble with intellectualizing always over-train.)

A person who easily intellectualizes tends to also worry more. And worrying about the practice can lead to practicing more than is actually necessary. I have seen this quite a few times.

Worrying and intellectualizing while practicing is wrong practice. Hence it can lead to deviating, which is sometimes similar in symptoms as over-training or over-cleansing. But the cause is different.

If you find yourself easily intellectualizing or worrying about your practice, you can practice for shorter sessions (about 5 minutes per session) and focus on enjoying your practice. If you intellectualize or worry while you practice, you still enjoy your practice. Enjoying your practice and worrying at the same time is impossible.

[Bernhard]

Dear Nessa Sipak
Thank you for the answer. :-)

In the past I experienced similar things. I thought I would overtrain and Andrew Sipak of Switzerland said that I had had too much thoughts. After realizing that during Chi Flow a lot of thoughts occurred in my mind I asked my Sifu what should I do and he said I should enjoy the stillness during Chi Flow. I think that helped me, although sometimes it was not easy to enjoy the Chi Flow.

I think another point which helped me to avoid symptoms of overtraining is to respect myself, the Shaolin Arts and my Sifu more, while being aware of the symptoms in a relaxed manner.

all the best o\
Bernhard

[Alexey Garshin]

Hi, everybody!
I think that the overtraining is an indicator of an inensivnost and correctness of practice...
It works as the valve and shows our real limit... so it not only is bad, but also an excellent way to estimate the ability and level of proficiency in art! Once again I sit down - it isn't bad at all))) but it can be avoided! But I think that it are excellent an indicator that we progress - and it is good)))!!!!