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  • Is Kungfu mainly for destroying?

    Hello everyone!

    I have found an interesting answer from Sigung.
    “In other words, third-class kungfu destroys life, second-class kungfu maintains life, first-class kungfu saves life.“ (https://shaolin.org/answers/ans06a/jun06-1.html Answer 2)

    I am curious what our family members think about that topic.

    Is Kungfu mainly for destroying?
    How does a practitioner know if his or her Kungfu destroys life?
    What about Wushu? As it does not train combat efficiency can it even be called forth-class Kungfu?
    What are examples of the various classes?
    What kind of skills are there in the various classes?
    Can first-class Kungfu destroy life or is it impossible?
    Are there no benefits of training third-class Kungfu?
    Are all iron trainings ( iron palm, iron leg, iron shirt etc.) third-class Kungfu?
    Is training with a wooden dummy third-class Kungfu?
    As we have Chi Flow in our school does it make our Kungfu to first-class Kungfu or are there other important things to consider?
    We learn to attack and defend ourself. Is attacking third-class kungfu?
    Maybe some practitioner of the various classes want to share why the practice Kungfu.

    One reason why I ask all these questions is that I am unsure if I should start with Kungfu again after I have reached health.

    With Shaolin salute o\
    Bernhard
    "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
    A single light can eliminate the darkness of millenia.
    Every moment is precious.

  • #2
    Wow Bernard, lots of questions! I will just try a couple of them:
    Originally posted by Bernhard View Post
    Are all iron trainings ( iron palm, iron leg, iron shirt etc.) third-class Kungfu?
    Is training with a wooden dummy third-class Kungfu?
    I would say yes, but not from a position of authority, ie if someone told me that Sifu or Sigung Ho used and recommended those methods then I would reconsider.

    Originally posted by Bernhard View Post
    Are there no benefits of training third-class Kungfu?
    I would say there is 4th, 5th and 6th class kungfu for this purpose as well.

    4th class kungfu I would say is kungfu that involves sparring and realistic combat training, where the students can fight quite well, but where they must use boxing or kickboxing instead of their kungfu forms to do so.

    5th class kungfu I would say is where the students do practise sparring and realistic combat training, and where they use their traditional genuine kungfu forms, but can't actually apply them very well, not well enough to successfully fight against a low level boxer or typical street brawler.

    6th class kungfu is I would say Wushu, or the sort of Taiji that is practised in most gyms, community centres and leisure centres, whereby they don't even make any attempt to practise combat.

    I will therefore define 3rd class kungfu as kungfu where the practitioners can use their traditional kungfu forms to fight successfully. They can use it to "destroy" if they so wish. But not for health benefit or spiritual cultivation.

    Obviously there are way more benefits in 2nd or 1st class kungfu, but are there benefits in this sort of 3rd class kungfu? Definitely!! It may save your bacon in a self defence situation! It may help someone live to fight another day... or do something else on that other day... like try to further cultivate their kungfu into 2nd and then 1st class kungfu! If a team of very good 3rd class kungfu fighters developed the ability to destroy or fight so well that they could enter the UFC and win fights, then kungfu schools would have their doors beaten down by students again like they haven't in decades, perhaps since the time of Bruce Lee. This would help not only 3rd class kungfu schools, but every other class as well, and might help to preserve and spread the art.

    As an example, Yue Fei taught Xingyiquan to his generals, and Eagle Claw to his soldiers. Xingyiquan was the higher class of kungfu. But for any soldiers who were able to successfully defend themselves in combat using Eagle Claw, it would have had a lot of benefits.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post

      Obviously there are way more benefits in 2nd or 1st class kungfu, but are there benefits in this sort of 3rd class kungfu? Definitely!! It may save your bacon in a self defence situation! It may help someone live to fight another day... or do something else on that other day... like try to further cultivate their kungfu into 2nd and then 1st class kungfu! If a team of very good 3rd class kungfu fighters developed the ability to destroy or fight so well that they could enter the UFC and win fights, then kungfu schools would have their doors beaten down by students again like they haven't in decades, perhaps since the time of Bruce Lee. This would help not only 3rd class kungfu schools, but every other class as well, and might help to preserve and spread the art.

      As an example, Yue Fei taught Xingyiquan to his generals, and Eagle Claw to his soldiers. Xingyiquan was the higher class of kungfu. But for any soldiers who were able to successfully defend themselves in combat using Eagle Claw, it would have had a lot of benefits.
      interesting answer thank you :-)
      "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
      A single light can eliminate the darkness of millenia.
      Every moment is precious.

      Comment


      • #4
        My calligraphy teacher translates Kung Fu as meaning "Achievement through accumulated effort" and Wu Shu as meaning "To Quell Violence"

        These two old translations could show evidence that "Kung fu" is a way of life that is meant to preserve life against incoming violence. In other words martial arts are meant to be learned in order to fight, and fight very well.

        Preservation is the goal of all life, including ones own self and those we care about. Sometimes to preserve one must destroy, so I would agree that destruction is an aspect of kung fu, but so is creation, and preservation.

        To say "Is Kungfu mainly for destroying?" is a tough question because there are many kinds of kung fu with wildly differing philosophies.

        For a fuller understanding I would bring up the philosophy of escalation and de-escalation:

        "Avoid before you Hurt, Hurt before you Injure, Injure before you Maim, Maim before you Kill."

        Shaolin Kung fu is a compassionate art that strives to do the least amount of damage necessary to safely end a conflict, yet we also train to attack in ways that can really hurt someone.

        It is up to each of us to find the balance.

        This is the Martial side of Kung Fu, while arguably the most important aspect, there are also the benefits we receive from such martial training that enhance our daily lives. To be in perfect fighting shape we need to develop good health, vitality, and mental clarity; Also high levels of agility, flexibility, and strength as a prerequisite.

        All of these attributes are built up through our practice and enhance every aspect of our lives as many of us can attest to.
        Shaolin Wahnam USA

        "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting questions and replies! As there are so many questions, I'm going to focus on the main one about whether kung fu is for destroying.

          When you frame the question in terms of the various classes of kung fu, I'm reminded of Sifu's famous non-dualistic response, "the answer is yes, no, neither yes nor no, or both yes and no." It depends on the class of kung fu.

          Kung fu by its commonly-accepted definition is a martial art. If you practice a martial art but don't develop any combat proficiency, are you really practicing a martial art? No.

          The various classes described by drunken boxer are interesting and useful, but if we come back to the original statement about 3 classes of kung fu, where everything that can be truly described as kung fu falls into one of the 3 classes (and higher classes also have the properties of lower classes), "kung fu is mainly for destroying" is a reasonable conclusion.

          In other words, all kung fu can be used for destroying life, some kung fu can also be used for maintaining life, and elite kung fu can be used for destroying, maintaining, and saving life.

          Practitioners of 3rd class kung fu have no other option. This would include styles of kung fu that are effective but which use postures that degrade your health over time. Practitioners/sifus/schools of 2nd class kung fu can focus on destruction and/or good health in whatever ratio their art allows/they prefer. Practitioners/sifus/schools of 1st class kung fu can focus on all three. In our school, we emphasize healing and maintaining health while also acknowledging that it's not kung fu without combat application. We live in a time where we can afford to treat the combat side of our kung fu as an interesting hobby, but if you think back to days of common life and death fighting, it's easy to understand why a practitioner of 1st class kung fu might emphasize destroying above the others. Some of the early Taijiquan masters would probably fit this definition as they practiced first class kung fu but were known to have short tempers and died relatively young from channeling their energy too much towards combat to the detriment of their health.

          Personally, I would not say that kung fu is mainly for destroying. It's simply not true based on my direct experience. But many other kung fu practitioners throughout history could argue just as matter-of-factly that it is, based on their direct experience.
          Chris Didyk
          Shaolin Wahnam USA


          Thank You.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bernhard View Post
            Is Kungfu mainly for destroying?
            Hello Bernhard, thank you for your question.

            In my opinion, it depends on the attitude and the skill of the practitioner.
            If for example a student has to fight for his life, he might have to do some damage to the opponent or even kill him, to save his own life.
            But a master has so much skill that he can control the situation and the opponent.
            He can choose whether he reacts with mercy or if he does some damage to the opponent.

            In our training in Shaolin Wahnam, we train our combat efficiency, our chi and our mind.
            So after a while, your skills in combat will rise, you will become stronger and will develop a clear mind.
            It will be much easier to control difficult situations, avoid them or even change them to a positive outcome.
            And also your training will affect your attitude. With time you will become more and more compassionate to all beings.
            I don't know of anybody in our school who wants to destroy something with his kungfu



            May all beings be happy!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Bernhard,

              These are interesting questions that you pose. I think we've already seen some good answers.

              Originally posted by Grimlock View Post
              In other words, all kung fu can be used for destroying life, some kung fu can also be used for maintaining life, and elite kung fu can be used for destroying, maintaining, and saving life.
              Consider this statement Chris made, when you apply it to the questions, "is wooden dummy/iron shirt/iron palm/etc training third-class kungfu" then that answer could be interpreted based upon how those skills are then used. If they are used to do harm, then they are definitely third-class.

              First-class kungfu, that is high level and trains the body, mind, and spirit begets first-class practitioners, who have no interest in destroying, and can be merciful should the need arise. Second-class kungfu begets second class practitioners, who perhaps lack the skill, control, or desire to be compassionate. Third-class kungfu begets third class practitioners, those whose training methods can often lead to blockages, who are angry and aggressive.

              There can be plenty of value in some of the other traditional ways of training. It depends however on how properly you train them and for what purpose you use them.

              All the best,

              Molly
              有志著事竟成

              Shaolin Wahnam Twin Cities

              Genuine Shaolin Kungfu and Qigong in Minnesota
              https://www.shaolinwahnamtc.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bernhard View Post
                Hello everyone!

                I have found an interesting answer from Sigung.
                “In other words, third-class kungfu destroys life, second-class kungfu maintains life, first-class kungfu saves life.“ (https://shaolin.org/answers/ans06a/jun06-1.html Answer 2)
                Wonderful answer by Sifu

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello everyone! Thank you for all your posts. I really enjoy and appreciate them.

                  I want to share another answer from Sigung:
                  https://shaolin.org/answers/ans16b/nov16-1.html Q7
                  In Separating Water Art a practitioner performs "Green Dragon Separates Water" or "Separating Water" for short, not just about 8 to 10 times but hundreds of times. He has to progress gradually. He starts with just a few times and eventually he reaches hundreds of times per training session. As he progresses, he may add weights, like copper rings, to his arms.

                  His resultant art is Iron Arm, where he can break an opponent's arm or deflect an opponent's bladed weapon easily.

                  There are different methods to train the resultant art of Iron Arm. Besides Separating Water, a practitioner may use Rolling Bamboo, striking a wooden man or striking poles.

                  Using the Separating Water method is internal. The practitioner's arms are not only powerful, the internal force derived from the training also gives him good health, vitality and longevity. Using striking a wooden man or striking poles method is external. Apart from having powerful arms, there are no holistic benefits. Using the Rolling Bamboo method is both internal and external.
                  Obviously not every Iron Art like Separating Water Art is third class kungfu as it has many benefits.

                  o\
                  Bernhard
                  "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
                  A single light can eliminate the darkness of millenia.
                  Every moment is precious.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello everyone :-)
                    I'm feeling surprised, happy and honored that Sigung has answered my questions.
                    Thank you very much Sigung



                    Is kungfu mainly for destroying?
                    How does a practitioner know if his or her kungfu destroys life?
                    What about wushu? As it does not train combat efficiency can it even be called fourth-class Kungfu?
                    What are examples of the various classes?
                    What kinds of skills are there in the various classes?
                    Can first-class kungfu destroy life or is it impossible?
                    Are there no benefits of training third-class kungfu?
                    Are all iron trainings (iron palm, iron leg, iron shirt etc.) third-class kungfu?
                    Is training with a wooden dummy third-class kungfu?
                    As we have chi flow in our school does it make our kungfu to first-class kungfu or are there other important things to consider?
                    We learn to attack and defend ourselves. Is attacking third-class kungfu?
                    — Bernhard, Austria
                    Bernard’s questions, which appeared in our Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum, are very interesting and there are many interesting answers in the Forum.

                    Here are my answers.

                    Whether kungfu is mainly for destroying depends on the practitioner. For us in Shaolin Wahnam, the main purpose of practicing kungfu is to enrich our lives and the lives of other people. I am glad that our Shaolin Wahnam kungfu practitioners are healthy, full of vitality, have longevity, have mental clarity and spiritual joys.

                    A practitioner knows whether his or her kungfu destroys life when it destroys life. In other words, he knows from direct experience, just as he (or she) knows he is happy when he is happy, or he knows he sits on a chair when he sits on a chair.

                    “Wushu’ as most Westerners know it today is a magnificent demonstrative art. There is no combat training, no internal force training and no spiritual cultivation. But “wushu” in Chinese means “martial art”, or what is understood in the West as “kungfu”.

                    As there is no training for combat efficiency in wushu, I would not even call it fourth-class kungfu. Nevertheless, what many kungfu practitioners practice today also does not involve combat efficiency. They only practice kungfu forms, and if they have to spar, they would borrow techniques from other martial arts.

                    Traditionally, kungfu is classified into three classes. Third class kungfu deals with combat. Second class kungfu deals with combat and health. First class kungfu deals with combat, health and spiritual cultivation.

                    I hesitate to give examples of various classes as it may be sensitive. It depends much on the teacher and the practitioner. A poor teacher and a poor practitioner who focus only on the combat of any style of kungfu would make it third class. An excellent teacher and an excellent practitioner can make the same style of kungfu first class when they also focus on health and spiritual cultivation besides combat.

                    I am proud that any style of kungfu practiced in our school, Shaolin Wahnam, is first class. It is not just a wild claim; it can be easily verified from experience. Our kungfu students are combat efficient, healthy, and peaceful and happy.

                    Kungfu if practiced correctly is at least second class. It provides combat efficiency and good health. Unfortunately, many kungfu practitioners today do not even know how to apply their kungfu for combat.

                    The kind of skills are related to the class of kungfu. For third class kungfu, students should learn combat skills like timing and spacing, and force training. For second class kungfu, students should learn to be relaxed and be focused, so that they can have good health. For first class kungfu, students should learn to be peaceful and happy.

                    First class kungfu can destroy life, as the development is progressive. In other words, first class kungfu includes attainments of second class and third class kungfu.

                    There are benefits of training third class kungfu. It may, for example, save your breakfast from being snatched away.

                    Whether all iron training like Iron Palm, Iron Leg and Iron Shirt is third class, second class or first class kungfu depends on how it is being trained. If it is just used for combat, often at the expense of health, it is third class kungfu. If the training contributes to health, it is second class kungfu. If it contributes to spiritual cultivation, it is first class kungfu.

                    It is the same as training with a wooden dummy. However, it may need much thought and ingenuity to train a wooden dummy for health and spiritual cultivation. Generally, it is third class kungfu if the training can be used for combat. It is not even third class kungfu if it can’t contribute to combat efficiency.

                    Chi flow will contribute to good health, vitality and longevity. It will at least make our kungfu second class if we also know combat. However, if we just have chi flow but do not know combat, like our chi kung students, we cannot even call it third class kungfu.

                    If our chi flow contributes to our spiritual cultivation, like making us happy and peaceful, our kungfu becomes first class.

                    It is necessary to consider other important things besides knowing chi flow. We need, for example, to know the philosophy besides having the techniques and skills of breaking blockage resulting in overcoming illness, having harmonious chi flow resulting in good health, making the chi flow vigorous resulting in vitality, having a lot of chi to flow for a long time resulting in longevity, clearing and nourishing the intellect resulting in mental freshness, and nourishing the spirit resulting in being peaceful and happy.

                    Learning to attack and defend is combat training, which makes our kungfu third class. It is the most basic of kungfu. If one cannot attack or defend, he cannot call his art kungfu. But we do not just attack or defend, we also have health and spiritual cultivation, which make our kungfu first class.
                    "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
                    A single light can eliminate the darkness of millenia.
                    Every moment is precious.

                    Comment

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