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  • Specializing / Spread and Depth / Overtraining

    Dear Family,

    how you balance specializing not in one, but in different arts, e.g. taking advantage of spread and depth, and avoiding overtraining?

    What is your experience?

    Best regards,
    Anton.
    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

    Anton Schmick
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

    shaolinwahnamchina.com
    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
    http://kungfu-luebeck.de


  • #2
    Thanks for this thread, great idea.

    I have a few sets, I try to rotate the material as best as I can, but I consistently use a few important concepts from each so the skills are always growing. I've taken my foundation in the 16 sequences and added those useful concepts in so I can maintain a consistent framework of combat. Such as the tiger-claws and no shadow kicks of Tiger-Crane, the powerful strikes and ground work of Lohan, the strategy and force of Cosmos Palm, the bridging of Four gates, and the sensitivity and principles of Wing Chun.

    I avoid over training by training at a low level like Sigung taught last year, often 30% potential or even much lower. Also for example when I am practicing combat applications it is usually at a low, often purely physical level. The only time I really experienced overtraining was last year after taking the 72 arts course, cosmos palm, and four gates back to back.

    In my first couple years of training my Sifu was having me up my training time so gradually that I adapted and never had any issues even when practicing for more than 1 hour a day. I built up to 30 minutes of stances, 15 minutes of stretching, then an hour of combat application at that point.

    Happy training everyone.
    Shaolin Wahnam USA

    "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

    Comment


    • #3
      Spread and depth

      Thank you raising an intresting question, Anton.

      I usually rotate what I practice daily. For force training it's Golden Bridge, Lifting Water, Three Circle Stance and One Finger Zen. So in a week I practice all at least once, with the emphasis on some more than others depending on my goals at the time.

      For sets it's Dragon Strength, Flower Set, Dragon Form, Taijiquan sets, and weapon sets. These I circulate also, and keep the training level low, especially on those sets that have a lot of internal force training.

      I experienced a lot of over-training after the Dragon Strength course, but was gradually able to lower my level and after that I haven't really had any problems with over-training. The weapon sets actually help with using the excess energy and I enjoy it very much after we got really good weapons.
      Adding combat sequences with physical level and strecthing, I can practice up to or over an hour comfortably, since it's so much fun.


      Happy training!


      Best wishes,

      Nessa
      Nessa Kahila
      Shaolin Nordic Finland
      Instructor
      nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

      www.shaolin-nordic.com

      Comment


      • #4
        overtraining

        Hello all,

        my secret is to train only if I can smile during any performance. Thats why I never get overtrained.
        May all beings be happy

        Kai
        ______________
        Shaolin Wahnam Germany
        www.shaolin-wahnam.de
        www.Cosmos-Chikung.de
        www.Anicca-Praxis.de

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear Sifu,

          thank you for your advice! Smiling makes truly a difference in life and kung-fu

          Dear Nessa,

          it sounds very reasonable to rotate the sets and lower the level in order to avoid overtraining. I am sure to know what you mean, however, I believe some of our junior forum members may not.

          Just for convenience, what does it mean to you to "keep the level of the training low"? How do you do it? And what is a good way to lower the level and what is not?
          In Chi Kung, you may lower the Chi Kung State of Mind. But what about kung fu? Is there a kung fu state of mind? Or can you even lower the form?

          Dear David,

          you seem to enjoy some good variety of arts!
          It´s certainly what Sigung teaches! So if you lower your training and train on a physical level, some may ask: "how do you make sure to not train kung fu as an external art?"
          And what is the point of training, for example, Cosmos Palm on a physical level?


          Let´s discuss
          I hope we and our readers can learn from it

          With best regards,
          Anton
          Engage and maintain joyful practice!

          May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

          Anton Schmick
          Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

          shaolinwahnamchina.com
          http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
          http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
          http://kungfu-luebeck.de

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Anton S. View Post

            Dear David,

            you seem to enjoy some good variety of arts!
            It´s certainly what Sigung teaches! So if you lower your training and train on a physical level, some may ask: "how do you make sure to not train kung fu as an external art?"
            And what is the point of training, for example, Cosmos Palm on a physical level?


            Let´s discuss
            I hope we and our readers can learn from it

            With best regards,
            Anton
            Hi Anton Siheng,


            It took me awhile to balance out the breadth without sacrificing the depth required to actually get decent at the arts.


            I do lower the level of my force training(both ta chong and set practice) by not going so deeply, and not flowing, consolidating, and exploding force nearly as much as I could, yet still enough to get the benefits and keep progressing.


            What is the point of training Cosmos Palm on a physical level? Please correct me if I have any misconceptions. That depends on if we are talking about Cosmos Palm the force training method or the Cosmos Palm combat applications. There is not much of a point to practicing pushing mountains, forceful big windmill, and pushing mountains in horse stance at a purely physical level, in this case just I lower or raise the internal level to something appropriate at the time.


            If we are talking about the cosmos palm combat applications and strategies, then practicing at a physical level is useful to develop the correct form, fluidity of movement, and the subtleties of the applications. At times I use various levels of internal skills in my training, at times I am doing this at a physical level.


            “How do you make sure not to train kung fu as an external art?” I think external and internal is important. If one focuses exclusively on the internal then the correctness of form and combat ability will suffer, if one focuses only on the external then the triple cultivation of jing, chi, and shen will suffer. We have six harmonies after all, three external and three internal. I do both, and combined.


            When I say that sometimes I practice my combat application on a purely physical level what I mean exactly is that I am more focusing on practicing the external aspects. Applications, figuring out new combat applications, and most importantly practicing the fundamental combat skills, strategies, and sparring methodology:


            Fundamental Combat skills: Right timing, right spacing, flowing movement, right judgement, fast decision, instantaneous change, footwork adjustment, and asking the way for full body safe coverage.


            Strategies: First defense then counter, simultaneous attack and defense, no defense direct counter, alert the east attack the west, unaccustomed mode, feinting exposure, avoiding strength attacking weakness, feint attacks, and flowing, pressing attacks.


            Sparring methodology: Pre-choice, self-choice, end-point continuation, mid-point continuation, end-point addition, surprise counter, external change, internal change, mid-point addition, and initial addition.


            Then I combine it all together.


            Happy training,
            David
            Last edited by David Langford; 5 October 2017, 02:44 AM.
            Shaolin Wahnam USA

            "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

            Comment


            • #7
              Lowering your level of practice

              Dear Nessa,

              it sounds very reasonable to rotate the sets and lower the level in order to avoid overtraining. I am sure to know what you mean, however, I believe some of our junior forum members may not.

              Just for convenience, what does it mean to you to "keep the level of the training low"? How do you do it? And what is a good way to lower the level and what is not?

              In Chi Kung, you may lower the Chi Kung State of Mind. But what about kung fu? Is there a kung fu state of mind? Or can you even lower the form?

              In Shaolin Kungfu or in Taijiquan, we use the Entering Zen, or Entering Tao, that is similar to entering Chi Kung state of mind. In Taijiquan especially, we use energy flow to direct our movements, when practicing sets, combat sequences, etc. Thus the whole practice session becomes energy training. Which is why it is easier to over-train practicing Taijiquan than Shaolin Kungfu.

              So, as an example, when you start your practice, instead of going to your Wuji stance and Entering Tao, you may skip this part altogether and just relax and start your practice.

              In our kungfu practice lowering the level is similar to lowering the level in chi kung practice.
              Then the emphasis is more on the physical form, combat applications, smooth movement, and not on energy flow or directing energy.
              When doing sets or combat sequences you may focus more on picture perfect form, waist rotation, application of sequences, sparring with others..

              This does not work well with internal force training, as David also pointed out. In force training I would recommend keeping the time shorter, if there is need to avoid over-training. Or practicing force training every other day.

              Another way to avoid over-training is to shorten the time you practice. But because we enjoy our practice, it may be more beneficial to learn how to lower your level.

              This does not mean we should practice our internal arts as external arts, but that we find the level to progress that is comfortable for our selves and that makes our progress more steady and continuos.


              I hope this helps to clarify.


              Best wishes,

              Nessa
              Nessa Kahila
              Shaolin Nordic Finland
              Instructor
              nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

              www.shaolin-nordic.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Anton S. View Post
                Dear Family,

                how you balance specializing not in one, but in different arts, e.g. taking advantage of spread and depth, and avoiding overtraining?

                What is your experience?

                Best regards,
                Anton.
                From my own experience. Practice what you enjoy and what will help you to achieve your aims and objectives. Don’t be a slave to your training. Listen to your body / senses / guidance. If you feel adverse physical or emotional symptoms it’s likely you should review your training and modify it. Don't dig deeper

                Comment


                • #9
                  My short answer:
                  1. Even inside of the same art, you can find spread to cut down on over-training.
                  2. Many of the kung fu sets in Shaolin Wahnam already incorporate spread.
                  3. Understanding the underlying principles of our kung fu and force training enable you to take advantage of spread from different related arts more easily.
                  4. Training at 30% of one's potential in force training. Still, however, don't compromise your form, especially in combat applications.


                  My slightly longer answer:

                  It's no secret that I like Baguazhang a lot
                  . Like, a lot. :P I've spent the vast majority of my time on walking around in circles, and I like to think that I've gotten some benefits from it. After all, it's a style that's been informed by some very skillful practitioners of other styles, including Northern Lohan Fist, Xingyiquan, and Taijiquan from past masters, and in our modern day and age, a great influence of Southern Shaolin from Sifu himself. In fact, a few practitioners of other schools have (perhaps jokingly, perhaps derisively) claimed that my Baguazhang looks "like Southern Shaolin wearing Baguazhang garments." I had a good laugh at that!

                  For the first few years after learning Baguazhang from Sifu, one way that I took advantage of spread "within" Baguazhang was to examine patterns and tactics that didn't seem to fit the stereotypical "get to the flank and back to deliver a palm strike" mode of Baguazhang. There were kicking patterns from Northern Shaolin, felling patterns from Drunken Eight Immortals, gripping techniques similar to those in Southern Shaolin, and so forth, so I spent time on those for a time to expand my skillset, though they were still inside of Baguazhang.

                  Eventually, however, either through reaching the limits of my understanding in addition to getting a little bored of my training of just one thing, I started branching out. Sifu himself mentioned that the highest martial attainment of Baguazhang may be Strike Across Space Palm, "But even the training for this art has to be borrowed from Shaolin." That line is one of several things that made me realize I had to go back to Shaolin kung fu to fill in the gaps in my knowledge, and especially to go back to the basic Shaolin kung fu syllabus. Another was remembering an experience from the UK Summer Camp, where Sifu said something to the effect of classical Baguazhang masters, when confronted by someone attempting to grapple or perform the "shoot" on them would simply sit back in their stance and deliver a decisive palm strike to the back of the opponent's head or neck. However, to provide a more "merciful" option to us modern practitioners, Sifu added Immortal Lifts Pot from Eight Drunken Immortals.

                  Pursuing spread within Baguazhang was nice, but looking back over the past few years, I don't think I was able to completely avoid over-training. It wasn't until attending Cosmos Palm when I got more formal instruction in lowering the level to avoid over-training; having the gentle thought of "train at 30% of one's potential" was quite nice and refreshing, not to mention very noticeable right after a session of training at "100% of one's potential" at the course. Modulating the "percentage" of training seemed to apply, at least to my perspective, to the amount of force developed or the quality of energy flow and development. I do not remember any talk about compromising one's form, i.e. moving from the back leg, rotating the waist, and exploding force to the hand in typical fajing, for example.

                  I'll admit for a while that I just did not want to train anything other than Baguazhang, partially out of pride and partially because I felt I needed to become a total expert in every aspect of Baguazhang before daring to learn anything else. Even after Sifu told me quite point blank that I should learn Xingyiquan or Wuzuquan due to being excellent complements to Baguazhang, I still wanted to pursue only Baguazhang. Talk about trying to be smarter than the master. However, thankfully, almost five years later, I'm finally going to learn some Xingyiquan at the upcoming Winter Camp. I can be quite the stubborn fellow sometimes.

                  One of the very nice things about our kung fu is that our fundamentals are all the same. We use the same stances, the same underlying principle to our general training (relaxation, but not to the point of becoming flaccid and listless in our kung fu), the same philosophy to our force training (the force and flow methods, in addition to flowing and consolidating our force as needed), the same general body mechanics for exploding force at the beginning stages, and the same combat strategies of safety first, asking the way, continuation, instantaneous change, pressing attack, and so forth. These underlying similarities enable us to very quickly assimilate the lessons of spread available in our kung fu, as opposed to learning "how to do Karate punches, Tae Kwon Do kicks, Muai Thai elbows and knees, Jujutsu grappling, and Aikido joint locks." This enables us to wield, as David mentioned above, "the tiger-claws and no shadow kicks of Tiger-Crane, the powerful strikes and ground work of Lohan, the strategy and force of Cosmos Palm, the bridging of Four gates, and the sensitivity and principles of Wing Chun."
                  I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Family,

                    thank you very much for your replies!
                    Please have some patience, I will comment on them shortly

                    Beforehand I would like to share with you a very important message from our Grandmaster:

                    Over-training is a matter of depth, and not a matter of spread. It is a common misconception, shared by many practitioners. They think wrongly, that if they practice five arts, they may over-train; if they practice only one art, they may not over-train.

                    The fact is that one can over-train, if he practices only one art deeper than his physical body can bear, whereas he may not over-train, if he practices five arts lightly, irrespective of the time he puts into his practice.
                    With best regards,
                    Anton
                    Last edited by Anton S.; 10 October 2017, 09:15 PM.
                    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                    Anton Schmick
                    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                    shaolinwahnamchina.com
                    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                    http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                    Comment

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