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  • Past Masters training in the Mountains

    Dear Family.

    A while ago I read the story of Venerable Jiang Nan meeting his disciple Master Yang Fatt Khuen.
    Dispite his old age Venerable Jiang Nan easily defeated Yang Fatt Khuen in a sparring match, after which Yang Fatt Khuen begged to be accepted as Venerable Jiang Nans student. Venerable Jiang Nan accepted him as his student under the condition Yang Fatt Khuen would start afresh and leave everything behind to come into the mountains to start his training. We are lucky Venerable Jiang Nan found his succsessor who later became Sitaigung Ho's Sifu.

    Reading this several questions popped into my mind.

    How did the two Masters (or any other past masters) make a living in the mountains?

    Where they building something like a small hut to sleep in or would they rest in cave?

    Where did they get their food? Did they beg like monks in nearby villages? Were they growing their own food, which would have taken a lot of time from the training?

    If someone knows how such a scenario could have looked like and how they managed to make a living and still have enough time to train I'd be happy to hear an answer.

    Greetings

    Benedikt
    Benedikt Vennen
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany

    ______________________

    May I be firm and resolute. may I be kind, compassionate, and friendly. May I be humble, calm, quiet, unruffled and serene. May I serve to be perfect. May I be perfect to serve.

  • #2
    While I don't have a specific answer to your questions, here are my thoughts:

    We live in reality. The past masters also existed in this reality, and like us, they were human. So, we can deduce certain things - they needed food, shelter, and clothing. They slept, they ate, they went to the bathroom. They grew old (sometimes) and died. So, any details from stories about past masters that do not abide by these rules of reality should be questioned/investigated/enjoyed as stories/etc.

    In this particular story, it may just be a case of assumptions as to the particulars of the details. For instance, "in the mountains" may simply refer to "not in the city". It could easily refer to a smaller village in a somewhat remote location. In the US, we say "out in the country" and that has many, many different meanings to the different people that say it. I live in a somewhat rural area. To someone that lives in a city, I would live "out in the country". To me, "out in the country" is significantly more remote. It's all in the perspective.

    Another assumption is that because one person met another person, they would continue to exist as two people, alone. But if you and I met one another, and I said, "come home with me and train" it wouldn't just be us at my "home". I have a full social environment that you would be coming into. There is family, friends, neighbors, pets, etc. It is very possible that this social environment could/would supply the necessary food, clothing, shelter while the two individuals trained. Yes, that is speculation, but humans are pack animals much more often than solitary.

    Another very possible explanation is that they simply took what they needed. Martial artists are fighters, and fighters are often not the kindest people. They would also be skilled at violence. So, roaming the country, taking what you need from others, would be a viable existence for someone like that.

    Those are just some reality-based thoughts. I do not know if any actually apply to the scenario that you mentioned.

    -Matt

    Comment


    • #3
      Marvelous Skills beget...

      Dear Benedikt Sisook,

      Dear Matt Sisookgung,

      thank you for the thread, I've sometimes tried to imagine more details about this.

      Now, I've taken courses in the Swiss mountains in a Nature and Wilderness school where you sleep outside, learn to make fire without modern tools and such and from this perspective and from another background going to train in the mountains does not look completely 'outlandish', also one may ask other questions or 'think in other directions' when trying to 'paint out the picture'.
      The American Tom Brown is propably the best known proponent in Tracking and Wilderness awareness in the 20th/21st century. Trained as a kid by an apache elder called 'Grandfather' who could still just live naturally and wild.

      Here a quote from one of his books 'Tom Brown's Field Guide: City and Suburban Survival':
      'Survival Priorities: The survival priorities, in their usual order of importance, are (1) air, (2) shelter, (3) water, (4) fire, and (5) food...It is often said that we can live about four minutes without air, four days without water and fourty days without foot.'
      The human body needs only a little food every now and then and it's more about 'quality' than 'quantity'. My personal 'record' at fasting is 10 days beside work, I've had a colleague who would fast for weeks and maintain a normal life with work and family (to Benedikt: in 'HG').

      I would suppose that Venerable Jiang Nan was already used to this 'lifestyle' by then. In tropical climate conditions shelter and fire may have other priorities and solutions as in colder climate regions.
      Personally I cannot imagine they were begging or robbing ('Ten Shaolin Laws') for food, nor do I believe - also in accordance with Tom Brown's priority list - that food was a major topic for them.

      Apart from this, they could have taken rice or other food with them and may have known edible plants, fruits, nuts etc. in the forest. They may have had money to buy something, they may have performed tasks for farmers, people. In many societies, in Switzerland some places even today, people may have 'hosted guests' out of human kindness (opposite of the lake where I'm living in a mountain valley that is only inhabited in the summer months there even the kids came when just seeing me hiking by and asked whether they may serve me something to drink).
      Modern life and customs seem to be more 'bewildering' than 'wilderness'...

      What seems to be 'possible' to us is limited by the brainwashing of modern western consumer societies that cater to weakness.
      The daily hiking distance for roman soldiers was a 100 kilometer per day carrying all their weapons, shield, belongings. They walked a 100 km per day for 10 days up from Italy to the nowadays German/French/Swiss border, then writing their testaments and fighting the germanic tribes the next day...
      The germanic tribes crossing the Alps before the 'barbarian migration' crossed the snowy mountains barefooted and roman eyewitnesses wrote they were enjoying it like kids...
      But they did not even have the Internal Force training methods etc. of Shaolin. Are the stories told about Zhang San Feng or Bodhidharma 'fairy tales' just because modern western civilization cannot imagine something like this? I don't think so.
      So, I'd say they really went to a mountain (something by the way very common for Daoists in chinese history) and just were able to live/train in such an environment.
      With Shaolin Salute,
      Michael
      Last edited by MichaelS; 15 April 2017, 07:06 PM. Reason: typo

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for your replies guys!

        Yes Sisook, going to the mountains could really mean to go to the masters already existing home. I did not think of that.

        Michael, I enjoyed reading your post. You are probably right when you say people were used to a much more demanding live back then. Shaolin Masters might in fact have eaten less than usual people because they could tap lots of energy from the cosmos and did not need to get as much energy from eating food.

        Some hermits for example had part time jobs to feed themselfs (ora et labora), others were taken care of by nearby villagers. Which would mean they had lots of time to practise. Some lived in caves, some had shelter. As you suggested hospitality might have been another factor when hermits or past masters decided to travel. Actually Yang Fatt Khuen was like other masters a wandering healer. Maybe he offered his healing arts in exchange for food and shelter or he was invited a lot to return the favor. It might be people just offered what they could spare: Food, shelter, money ect.

        Some people would mean they would go to a monastary when saying "I'm going to the mountains."

        In the end its probably that we can not imagine a life like that nowadays because it is not as common. I guess it is not too difficult to get along somehow if you really want it and if you are not too worried about not eating once in a while and sleeping outside. Anyway, the more you retreat from society the harder it will be to survive on our own. Especially when you want to have some free time left for spiritual cultivation or Kungfu training.

        I saw a documentary movie once where some tried to survive half a year in Canadas Nature. He started with some food supplies and all he did all day long was trying to get more food. He still did not make it.

        Greetings

        Benedikt
        Benedikt Vennen
        Shaolin Wahnam Germany

        ______________________

        May I be firm and resolute. may I be kind, compassionate, and friendly. May I be humble, calm, quiet, unruffled and serene. May I serve to be perfect. May I be perfect to serve.

        Comment


        • #5
          This actually reminded me of a story Sifu told us ( Sifu Markus and Sifu Omar) when we were driving through the Norwagean mountains last summer.
          Sifu said: " We live in a golden age. In the past, those who trained Shaolin arts had to walk on foot for long distances to train and eat nothing but some bread and water. We are indeed very lucky. We can cross countries by car in one day."

          We are very privileged.



          Best wishes,

          Nessa
          Nessa Kahila
          Shaolin Nordic Finland
          Instructor
          nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

          www.shaolin-nordic.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Benedikt, Sissok,


            thank you for your reply. Here just some additional points:


            What TV showed you is just one example I'd say of somebody who obviously was not experienced and skilled enough to accomplish what he set out to do. Obviously, all native indian tribes in the US and Canada made it through naturally until the 'White Man's Civilization' did not allow for it anymore for the most part.


            But even on the German TV, for example, you may have seen documentaries about the Eskimos, that even live in more 'adverse' circumstances and did you ever get the impression they were not making it through? If not, there wouldn't be Eskimos anymore.



            Regarding a natural environment (including mountains) and spiritual cultivation and Kung Fu:


            -Shaolin actually is named after the Shao Shi Mountain and in the naming also trees played a role (and it's build on a remote mountain with forests).


            -Zhang San Feng settled on Wudang Mountain to create Wudang Kung Fu leading to Tai Chi Chuan.


            -Northern Praying Mantis founder Wang Lang -according to some sources - watched the mantis in the Lao Shan Mountains of Shandong province, at least the Lao Shan Mountains are closely associated with Nothern Praying Mantis Kung Fu.


            -One of the Southern Shaolin Temples was build on 'Nine-Lotus-Mountain'.


            -Tan Tui Kung Fu in it's founding legends is associated as well with Xinjiang province with his high mountains in western China as well as with 'mountain village' Guanxian in Shantung province.


            Mountains were never a hindrance in spiritual cultivation and Kung Fu practise, they were an integral part of it ever since, weren't they?


            That SiJo Venerable Jiang Nan suggested to SiJo Yang Fatt Khuen to go to a mountain to teach him Kung Fu is the least surprising to me. And given he was living an 'independent natural lifestyle' (and living alone and on his own as a fugitive) and SiJo Yang Fatt Khuen was accusomed to the use of plants/herbs and both were familiar with the region and it's environment I'd see now problem for them at all to accomlish what they set out to do.


            I'm just back a few days by the way from training Tai Chi Chuan at the Kinabalu Mountain enjoying the generous heartfelt hospitality of the Kissey Family.


            That's just the way we're doing it, ever since, isn't it (given there is a mountain to go to)?


            Thank you,


            With Shaolin Salute,


            Michael

            Comment


            • #7
              Dear Benedikt

              I heard somewhere that there was a Lidl in those Mountains

              Comment


              • #8
                Some ideas:

                Where they building something like a small hut to sleep in or would they rest in cave?
                Both is possible. Sometimes what began with a small hut in seclusion had been upgraded into a temple over scenturies (sometimes by imperial decree). Did you know, there is a place in Europe for orthodox man to retreat: The autonomous republic Athos in Greece?

                Where did they get their food? Did they beg like monks in nearby villages? Were they growing their own food, which would have taken a lot of time from the training?
                • Growing their own food

                Next to the Shaolin Monastery there are fields with corn for example. You can keep bees as well. As Sifu said, the monks trained in their daily life as well. It was tough up a mountain and in the past. Because of that they did not need to do weight lifting. They trained moving in stances while sweeping the floor, harvesting the field, etc.
                • Nearby villagers donate food and other materials.

                As far as I know it is not common for those people to beg. People are very generous. I heard that people from a town would walk 4h(can't remember the exact time, but it was a lot) one way to support a hermit in the Wudang Mountains. In exchange the refugee provides advice (shares his wisdom), treatment. It is said that 9 out of 10 taoist monks were healers. That means they had patients - even just a few. Sometimes their refuge is a temple as well to which people pilgrim. Sometimes the village's only temple is the one you are retreating in 2h up the mountain. In the past the villagers could get protection from bandits, armies, etc as well in exchange.
                If you ever go to such a place, bring some fruits. That's what they get least there ;-)
                I met a man who retreated with another monk to meditate deep in the forests of Thailand (Theravada Buddhism). 5 people followed and settled near their hut to take care of those 2, so they could cultivate. Different tradition in which begging is an integral aspect, but I think you get the idea.
                • You exchange goods and service for food and material.

                If the patients do not come up the mountain, you give treatment in the village. You can sell herbs from the mountain as well. In the Wudang Mountains you see tea terraces on the mountains. Some are still used today.
                • Your pupil(s) take care of you.

                As a hermit you can teach people from town coming up the mountain once in a while. In exchange they share their food and goods and profession with you. They can for example repair your roof.
                • "They drink the dew and eat the clouds" (a saying in the Wudang Mountains concerning hermits living far off any civilization)

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