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  • Shaolin Tantui - best kept secret in town!

    Dear Shaolin Wahnam Family and Friends,

    What a gift it is that Sifu/Sigung/Sitaigung has agreed to teach Northern Shaolin Tantui from the 24th of July to the 5th of August this year! In this course, he will teach what is not taught elsewhere, with a special focus on internal force development and combat application - it is certainly not an opportunity to be missed!

    For those who do not know anything about Tantui, I would like to open this thread to share some information on this wonderful art. I would also like to invite fellow Shaolin Wahnam members and friends to share their experiences and perspectives here.

    Tantui is well known and valued throughout the world today as a foundational style, and it is often considered a prerequisite before learning any other style of Chinese martial arts (kungfu). However, many exponents are not aware of how Tantui is much more than just a basic art, and that it is, in fact, a comprehensive style containing all the four categories of:

    a) hand strikes
    b) kicks/leg work
    c) felling
    d) chin-na (grips).

    Before going any further, it is worth taking a moment first to consider the origin of the term 'Tantui'. This term comes from two sources:
    a) from 'spring kicks', meaning 'to be released from a compressed situation', and not 'one of the four seasons of the year in a temperate country';
    b) and from 'long tan si' which is word-for-word 'dragon-pond-temple', or the 'Temple of Dragon's Pond', where Tantui was first developed.

    The word 'Tantui' is in Mandarin pronunciation. In the Chin Woo Association in Penang, where this is the first set practiced, regardless of what kungfu style students may specialize in later on, it is called and also spelt as, 'Tham Thui', which is in Cantonese. 'Tham' refers to 'pond' in Cantonese. The Temple of Dragon's Pond in Cantonese is 'Long Tham Chui'. In Cantonese, 'spring' in 'spring-kicks' is also pronounced as 'tan', or more precisely as 'than', just as it is written in English.

    In Mandarin, 'tan' in 'Tantui' is also pronounced as 'than' as the Chinese pronounce it, and not as 'tan' when written in English spelling. Just as 'qigong' is pronounced as 'chi kung', and not as 'qi gong', in Spanish, 'Jose' is pronounced as 'ho say' and not as 'jose'.

    I would like to invite forum visitors and fellow Shaolin Wahnam members to post here and share their opinion on which version of the origin of the term 'Tantui' they think is correct. Also, which version is preferred?

    Thank you for your kind attention so far.

    My deepest gratitude goes out to Sifu (Sigung/Sitaigung) for his great generosity in agreeing to teach the wonders of this profound art this summer.

    Shaolin salute from the heart,

    Emiko
    Last edited by Emiko H; 7 February 2017, 09:17 AM.
    Emiko Hsuen
    www.shaolinwahnam.jp
    www.shaolinwahnam.ca

    INTENSIVE & SPECIAL COURSES -- PENANG 2018
    Taught by Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit
    4th generation successor of the Southern Shaolin Monastery
    Small and Big Universe Course: Nov 21 to 25
    Becoming a Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu Practitioner: Nov 26 to Dec 2
    Cultivating Spirit Nourishing Energy: Dec 2 to Dec 8
    Intensive Chi Kung Course: Dec 9 to Dec 13
    To apply, send email to: secretary@shaolin.org


  • #2
    Dear Emiko (Sipakgung, guess),

    Thank you very much for this thread and co-initiating (or how to call this) the Tan Tui Courses.

    Around two years ago – while ‘on the search sort of’ – trained just around 3 months with a Kung Fu school that has a mixed style out of Tan Tui and Northern Praying Mantis (Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis).

    But to my knowledge the school has no Tan Tui in its ‘original’ form or ‘alone standing’ in the curriculum (and as a beginner one also does not learn what’s classically associated with Praying Mantis, by the way, which is no critic, there’s just some other foundations to learn; so neither really trained Tan Tui, nor Praying Mantis).

    However, I’ve tried to get a bit of information on Tan Tui back then and my source for some background was/is the Swiss website of the Chin-Woo Association (in German).

    There the original founder is named Chashangyir (also called Chamir, 1568-1644), a Moslem from Xinjiang (Xinjiang is an autonomous province in the north west of china with borders to Tibet, Mongolia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyztan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Kashmir as well as Chinese Qinghai and Gansu provinces; it’s population consists mostly out of ethnic minorities with the majority practicing Islam, it was on the ‘Silk Road’).

    It’s said that Chashangyir became sick while travelling and was taken care of by farmers in the mountain village Guanxian (Shantung province) and that he was teaching them the style out of gratefulness. It was also called Cha Chuan. It’s said that Tan Tui is widely practiced by Moslem people (of China).

    But it’s also sort of a style of it’s own and at the same time foundation style for Kung Fu practitioners and was also practiced at the Northern Shaolin Temple.

    I’ve also read that the way it is practiced is sort of rooted/inspired in/by Arabic-Islamic culture and could sort of be compared to how poems are written in Arabic.

    So, that was my info background so far about Tan Tui, without ‘really researching’ it, and what ‘I’ve heard about it’ and it’s maybe just one of different versions; now enriched by additional information you gave in the thread. May I ask what your view is on this or how this fits together with ‘the temple pond version’ you mentioned? Thank you very much.

    I’m not yet decided whether I shall go to the courses, but I feel ‘tempted’ to go there somehow.

    Thank you very much,
    With Shaolin Salute,

    Michael

    Comment


    • #3
      Dear Emiko (Sipakgung?),

      regards my first mail. Just googled it a bit and randomnly found an article blending the versions together: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle25.htm

      Interesting, but does anybody really know for sure? I don't know. ;-)

      Thank you, best regards,

      With Shaolin Salute

      Michael

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Michael,

        Lovely to hear from you - and thank you for taking the time to post with in such engaging detail.

        I am just off to work now, but when I get back, I look forward to continuing this exciting thread.

        Thanks again for posting. I'll be in touch soon!

        Warmest wishes,

        Emiko
        Emiko Hsuen
        www.shaolinwahnam.jp
        www.shaolinwahnam.ca

        INTENSIVE & SPECIAL COURSES -- PENANG 2018
        Taught by Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit
        4th generation successor of the Southern Shaolin Monastery
        Small and Big Universe Course: Nov 21 to 25
        Becoming a Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu Practitioner: Nov 26 to Dec 2
        Cultivating Spirit Nourishing Energy: Dec 2 to Dec 8
        Intensive Chi Kung Course: Dec 9 to Dec 13
        To apply, send email to: secretary@shaolin.org

        Comment


        • #5
          Best kept secret

          Dear Sifu Emiko,

          Thank you very much for sharing here all this wonderful information about Tantui.

          I've been practicing it for almost three years now, and I must say it has completely changed my approach to any Kung Fu style. For me, the principal benefit has been "the pressing attack" , and in my case, as I really love kicks, Tantui has offered me the perfect combination of pressing kicking attack (which for a woman is important as we don't want to stay in combat for a long time) and a clear state of mind.

          I will be attending to Sigung's course in Malaysia and I can't wait to learn more about combat applications of Tantui and also their connection to our daily life, which is the most profound teaching that Sigung offers to all of us through his teachings.

          Thank you again for "opening the Tantui door" to westerners.

          With much gratitude and respect

          Myriam

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you Emiko Sije for starting this thread, and Michael and Myriam for your very informative contributions!

            I am not sure which of the two versions of the origin of the term "Tan Tui" is the correct one - perhaps they both are! Often the name of a style comes from where it originated, so it could be that "dragon-pond-temple" played a role in the name. I however quite like the name coming from the term "Spring Kicks". First, it sounds pretty cool, which is never something to underestimate, but mostly because it seems to contain a lot of the secret applications of Tantui - both mechanically and energetically.

            The wording "to be released from a compressed situation" evokes several principles that seem to fit my experience of Tantui pretty well. For example Tantui is often associated with large and long movements, but in fact the secrets lie in the transitions. Before we get to these long range moves, our arms and legs are very close to the body and sort of release in an explosive momentum.

            This is actually one of the things that made Tantui grow on me quite a bit: as Myriam mentioned, one of its forte is the application of pressing attacks. Or one could also say that Tantui only works if it is done with flow. At first I had trouble applying the techniques, because individually they seemed harder to apply than, say, southern Shaolin Kung Fu. However once Sifu "unlocked" the secret of applying the techniques with flow, it completely transformed it. Understanding how to put flow in a Tantui sequence and its application was really a discovery that then translated into my southern Kung fu too.

            Then interestingly the more I practiced the more I found hints of what would become southern styles hidden in Tantui. For example the second sequence has a very Hung Ga flavour to it.

            Has anyone had any similar experiences in unlocking the "mysteries" of Tantui?
            Hubert Razack
            www.shaolinwahnam.fr
            www.sourireducoeur.fr

            Comment


            • #7
              The Magic of Tantui



              To continue with the flow of the posts so far, Tantui, whether from the place of origin or as a kung fu foundational style, I am inclined to identify Tantui through poetics. I discovered the ‘spring kicks’ meaning in the literal sense. Tantui is full of the appreciation of kicks as given in the 10 solo sequences and through the kicks in combat applications. Energetically, the reference of spring kicks became connected to kicks reaching the sky. Spring doesn’t refer to the season but to a emerging bubbling - a bouncing well from deep inside constantly refreshing. There seems to be much mystery in the ‘’dragon-pond-temple’ meaning.


              Sequence 1 holds a magic spot for me. Each time I do the sequence I feel clearer and more focused. The spring-ing is felt in the hands, in the kicks and in the flow. Training becomes alive again. I am very grateful for this opportunity to continue having the ‘spring’ of wellness and of secrets bubbling up during the upcoming courses in Malaysia! Thank you, Sigung, for sharing your generosity and wisdom with Tantui. Thank you Sifu Emiko for introducing Tantui with such continuous joy and making it a marvel in training the Arts.


              Looking forward to more posts.

              Marisa

              Comment


              • #8
                The great marvels of Tantui

                Dear Sifu,

                Thank you very much for starting this wonderful thread on Tantui. I am particulary grateful since I am excitedly training for the upcoming Special Tantui course in Malaysia with Sigung. I am so lucky to have been accepted and cannot wait to learn the great treasures that Sigung is so generously going to share with us. My deepest gratitude to Sigung for this wonderful and rare opportunity.

                Thank you to everyone that has contributed with great posts as I am able to learn from each person's writing and experiences.

                I had the privilege of attending "The Magic of Shaolin Tantui' course in Toronto with Sigung in 2014 and wow... my life has never been the same since. I have found through my own personal experience, that the art of Shaolin Tantui, when practiced correctly as taught by Sigung, is amazing not only for internal force development, combat application, mental clarity and to help every single part of our body flow but additionally because as the name Springkicks indicates it helps us "'to be released from a compressed situation.' Since English is not my first language I looked up the meaning of compressed in the dictionary. It means "pressed into less space." Often in life experiences, circumstances, other people etc. try to "press us" into a space that is not big enough for us. It is like forcing a tiger to live in a 2x2 cage when it is meant to roam free and run in the wild. Often these situations temporarily succeed in "boxing people", in "caging the tiger" and this is how people's hearts and spirits break and people loose hope for life and get sick. Life is precious and as we learn here in Shaoiln Wahnam, life is meant to be enjoyed!

                I like the name Springkicks because it alludes to the effect that practicing Tantui has on our body, mind, heart and Spirit... through its meaning it shows us what happens when we train this Art... which is that through Tantui's long and noble moves our Spirits break free of any compressed situation that we might find ourselves in. The Internal force from within expands and explodes as we move from one movement to the next... as we come close and then stretch out and then our body, mind, heart and Spirit are Freed... freed from any constraints and fully present and ready to live a FULL LIFE.

                I have also found that Tantui gives us the skill of pressing forward with a steady attack - regardless of what the counter or other person is doing, or regardless of what situation or challenge lie in front. Learning combat in my experience is key to learning how to live a happy, healthy, peaceful life and this is what Sigung"s transmission of Tantui has done for me - it has taught be to run free like the tiger and not let myself be caged. What a great gift this has been - a great treasure within that continues to unfold each day.

                Having said this, I would also like to mention that I have found great value in the name 'long tan si' as it points us back to the origin of Tantui. I believe that when we understand where something comes from, then we can understand its secrets, its treasures and the true Art opens up to us. Thankfully Sigung kindly shares these secrets with us in a way that is easy for us to understand and put in practice... and in the case of Tantui teaches us the long-lost combat application of this wonderful Art...we often forget how rare it is for a Great Master to do this... and for this I am very, very grateful.

                I look forward to continuing to learn from and share in this thread. Thank you again Sifu for starting this post and sharing very inspiring and exciting information on Tantui that will help us prepare for the great Tantui course with Sigung in Malaysia.

                My deepest gratitude to Sigung for generously sharing with us the wonders of Tantui and its amazing combat application for training and for life!

                With deep gratitude and respect,

                Shaolin salute,

                Carolina QM

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Sifu,

                  Thank you very much for starting this exciting and informative thread! I've been enjoying reading everyone's experiences and thoughts here.

                  I am also thrilled to be able to participate in the upcoming Tantui course, and I can't wait for it to begin. We are truly lucky to be able to learn such a magnificent art from Sigung.

                  I still remember clearly my very first experiences with Tantui. The long, stretched-out movements generated such a pleasant chi flow all throughout my body, and I felt so incredibly refreshed after even just a few repetitions! There is truly something unique about this art, and I look forward to learning more about it and its combat applications at the upcoming courses in July.

                  As for the name 'Tantui', everything I've read about the meaning seems to indicate that "spring" is indeed the most common translation for "Tan" (弹), and from personal experience, the powerful and vibrant movements do match the 'spring' name well.

                  I look forward to hearing what others think on the matter, and also reading more stories of experiences with Tantui.

                  With deep gratitude for Sigung for the opportunity to join the Tantui course,
                  Shaolin salute,
                  Erica

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Shaolin Wahnam Family,

                    While I'm not going for the course, it delights me how many enthusiastic people have testified highly of Shaolin Tantui and its wonders. Clearly Emiko Sipak has brought up many deserving students that will now receive a crown for their dedication.

                    I look forward to reading more of your experiences before and after the special Tantui course.

                    With sincere respect,
                    Olli

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you so much, Emiko Sije, for this wonderful thread! Tantui is incredibly exciting for me, personally, and I look forward to having some great discussions in the lead up to the much anticipated Shaolin Tantui courses in July and August!

                      Thank you, also, to everybody else who has replied, for sharing your personal experiences with regards to just what the art itself means to you. It's wonderful to read everybody's individual take!

                      I particularly enjoyed your replies, Myriam-san and Sifu Hubert, in which you mention something that to my mind stands out as worth remembering when it comes to the genuine arts, and that is that although Tantui, in this particular case, is often perceived - and certainly is, by me - as a martial art associated with "large and long movements", there are definitely complementary elements to it that emphasise "shorter range" features, such as the explosive momentum that you mentioned, as well as embedded chin na and felling techniques. To me, this helps signify that, along with many other reasons, Shaolin Tantui is truly a complete and genuine art.

                      I also learned many years ago that Wing Chun, while often though of as a "short range" martial art, also comprises techniques that allow it to be highly effective in situations that require the application of more "long range" skills.

                      Personally, being quite tall and long-limbed, I find that Tantui suits my body and the way I move, very well. In particular, I find that I tend to have a slightly higher centre of gravity when performing some of the techniques, and that this reminds me to truly relax, listen to, and move from my dan tian, free from any extra force or tension. When I repeat this enough, I start to feel the art come alive inside me, and it feels very powerful while at the same time being very light.

                      Thank you so much, Sifu, for your generosity in preserving and developing these arts for the benefit of all! I can't wait to uncover just how much more there is to learn on the course!

                      Wishing everybody and happy and flowing week! With warm Shaolin salute,

                      Craig
                      Last edited by Cragget; 27 February 2017, 02:48 AM. Reason: Grammar... I just... I really have a long way to go... le sigh...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello again, everybody!

                        Just recently I've been looking at this series of the 12 Tantui Combat Sequences performed some years ago in Toronto and I've been really excited to see how the 12 Solo Sequences inform so many of the movements that comprise the Combat 12!

                        All of the elements of kicking, punching, felling and gripping are widely represented and seeing the fluidity and grace of the movements between Sifu and Michael Chow Siheng in their sparring is fantastic to watch! I can't wait to see what else lies in store for us at the Special Tantui Course in July!

                        I wanted to ask others who will be going, what in particular has got you excited about the course?

                        Wishing everybody a wonderful weekend, with a happy Shaolin salute,

                        Craig

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          'Seeking Leg'

                          Correction: Wah Lum Tam Tui School does have Tan Tui, it's just far away in the curriculum from beginner's level I've had trained on for some time.

                          According to Wah Lum's school/training handbook Tan Tui is transalted to english as 'Seeking Leg'. However, at the same time 'Tui' in all other cases is translated as 'Kick' in the handbook.

                          Was wondering, whether even 'Seeking' vs. 'Spring' may have a shared motive such as bridging a distance.

                          Thank you to those who posted personal first hand experiences with Tan Tui. 'There is no substitute for experience' (Johnny Marr).

                          With Shaolin Salute,

                          Michael

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tan Tui Practice and Arabic Poetry

                            The following excerpts are taken from http://www.meridiangatekungfu.com/kung-fu/tan-tui.php where Ted Mancuso reposted an article from a source I cannot find on the internet an refer to the training practice for Tan Tui:


                            In due course, after the student has learned the ten basic roads the real training should begin. This is a good example of ancient training methods versus more contemporary ones...For instance, since the ten roads are each seperate they can be done in any order. A good tan tui instructor will then have the student mix and match roads until any road can be done in any order at will. Then the roads are again practiced with shuffling steps, changes of speed, and angled steps breaking the robot-like aspect completely. This challenges the students creativity and ability to respond. Finally the actions from the roads are completely mixed so the student may start with No. 1, switch to No. 8, and finish with No. 5 without losing place or direction. From a simple series of movements the student is now only a small step from basic sparring practice.
                             
                            Those familiar with Arabic religious poetry will note that many root words in Arabic are without vowels and can be rearranged to create other meanings and levels of understanding. This rearrangement, also familiar to certain Christian and Jewish sects, was considered a valid study for all students of the Bible, Torah and Koran. And note as an interesting sidelight that this is precisely the method of teaching for the tan tui, taking ten routes (roots) and reassembling them to form new meanings and combinations still related to the original exercises.


                            Does anybody here train it like this?


                            Thank you for feedback,


                            Sincerely,


                            With Shaolin Salute,


                            Michael

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Michael,

                              Thanks for posting the link to this article.

                              Yes, combining the solo sequences (or "roads") is something we do very often. We also often repeat the same move many times, but we are always very clear about the objectives of our training (that is, we know why we train what we train):

                              - recovering and maintaining health
                              - attaining vitality
                              - achieving peak performances
                              - developing the spirit (or to put it simply, enjoying life in a meaningful way)

                              The article is correct in stating that very often students learn many techniques and many styles, and never quite develop skills. However in most cases even if a student repeats one or a few techniques many times, like the Tantui solo sequences for example, but without being clear about one's objectives, the student won't develop much skills (or it will be incidental).

                              That's why in our case we concurrently train how to develop internal force, as well as combat application - all with Tantui.

                              By today's standards I guess the way we train is somehow unusual: we train the solo sequences as we would train Chi Kung, while at the same time training for combat - using the sequences. We learn to keep the sequences "alive" by combining footwork, using our stances, and using internal force rather than external strength. We learn to apply our sequences to enrich our life, to become healthier, more confident, and more gentle at the same time. We learn to have more energy by the end of a training session than at the beginning, and to feel naturally hopeful about our day and the world - just as a result of our training. All of that with Tantui.

                              That is what will be taught at the course in Malaysia with Grandmaster Wong.
                              Hubert Razack
                              www.shaolinwahnam.fr
                              www.sourireducoeur.fr

                              Comment

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