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  • still can't stop intellectualising

    Hi everyone,

    Sorry to bring this up again, but I still have problems with stopping intellectualising for a continuous period. It just seems that my mind is always there, so that even if I do stop intellectualising, it comes in and says "great job, now see if you can do it again". Or, when I go to stop intellectualizing, I think about it first and then continuously.

    I know from experience that there is more to me than my mind, but can't go beyond it or away from it for too long. I am also trying Sifu's thought-stopping method, that he describes in his Q & A series (if you search the Q & A series for intellectualizing, you will find it but I can link it if some want). But again with that, I can't seem to stop the thoughts as they arise, and the whole process becomes stressful in the end.

    Sorry for this negative post, but I do it because I want to make a positive change, but it really upsets me that I can't seem to do this simple thing.

    Kind regards
    Chris.

  • #2
    Hi Chris,

    Entering into a chi kung state of mind, which includes not intellectualizing, is a skill, and if you want to stop intellectualizing should learn from a Shaolin Wahnam Instructor. Have you?
    少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

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    "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

    -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

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    • #3
      Hello Chris,

      if I understand correctly, you attended Sifu's Intensive Chi kung course in 2015?

      The best possible advice for problems in chi kung (or any other matter) is:
      1. Do not worry
      2. Do not intellectualize
      3. Enjoy your practice

      If you constantly worry about your unnecessary intellectualizing, you will not be able to enjoy your practice. And therefore will not get the best benefits of your practice.
      The best choice for you would be to attend a regular chi kung class by one of our SW instructors. If this is not possible you can travel to some special regional courses given by Sifu all over the world.

      As Mark mentioned, not intellectualizing is a skill. Since you have attended an Intensive Chi Kung course, you have the skill. Now you just have to practice, and give yourself time in getting better in it. Stop worrying about intellectualizing and enjoy your daily practice.
      Enjoy the exercise, enjoy the chi flow and enjoy the stillness. Have fun with your practice!


      Best wishes,

      Nessa
      Nessa Kahila
      Shaolin Nordic Finland
      Instructor
      nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

      www.shaolin-nordic.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Christoph,

        Ah, I think I can spot some problems. You might be confusing 'thoughts that think themselves', as I call them, and thoughts you deliberately think. You also seem to be thinking about not thinking .

        Developing a skill is generally a gradual process. Ideally you have a good teacher, who explains the best techniques to use that develop the skill. Ideally, the student then practices these techniques and the skill develops leading to the outcome expected. Ideally, the student has contact with a teacher during this process to help them stay on the best track. This can involve the teacher giving individual feedback to a student if they notice them 'veering off'. This is one of the benefits of regular classes.

        Sifu's courses are wonderful and can be used to achieve amazing outcomes. Using them in combination with regular classes gives even more benefits - along with it being fun to mix with other people who are interested in similar things and are good at 'smiling from the heart'. You can read about what they are like in London on this post .

        With metta,

        Barry
        Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
        Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
        Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
        UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Did we meet in Sydney in 2010?

          Hey Chris,
          I just want to confirm something. I think that we may have had a few session when I was living in Australia around 2010/11, we met in a park at one point.

          Barry has given you some great insights and advice and the only thing I would offer is not to let it create tension in you. You have already had some success in this, as you described in your first post on this thread. You said that you would experience not intellectualising and then would notice and think about it.


          The focus you need to have on this is that you experienced it, what could be a good way is just to gently remind yourself that it has happened and as with any skill the more I experience and practice it in the most balanced way ( not to hard and not to soft ) the longer I will experience and become more skillful at it.

          As Barry mentioned, this is why it is good having a regular teacher and being part of a group.

          Thoughts still pop into my head I just choose not to hold onto them as the zen master said,

          "keep you front and back door open and let the thoughts come and go, just dont invite them for tea"

          Peace

          Mark
          Sifu Mark Appleford

          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Chris

            You received already many precious answers above. I can only repeat, it is a skill, which you have already received if you have taken a course with Sigung or any of our instructors.
            But, and this is important, it also takes a decision to use it.

            Once you made the decision just keep practicing. Whenever you find yourself intellectualizing during your Qigong practice, just stop and let the thought go.. In the beginning you might have to do this often, but if you stick to your decision and keep practicing, your skill will improve, the periods will be longer and longer and at some point it will be gone altogether. From what you write, you have started to do this - so great - just continue. Remember "to stop" means just that "stop" - and not "think about stoping" . Just let those thoughts go. Keep it that simple and keep practicing and don't forget to "smile from the heart".

            You will find that your mind becomes very clear and far more useful once you have learned not to "invite" straying thoughts "for tea" (to use the image Mark Sisook has used above).

            Best regards
            Andrea

            PS: On a practical note - the three Golden Rules (1.Do not worry 2. Do not intellectualize 3. Enjoy your practice) are an essential part of our Qigong practice. Not following them can lead to serious deviations and thus it is best not to practice Qigong if somebody does not wish to follow them. Note this is not the same as the situation I assume above, where the decision to follow them has been taken, but thoughts still come back often and one needs more practice at letting them go.
            Last edited by Andrea; 16 January 2017, 04:40 PM.
            Enjoy some Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan & Qi Gong!

            Evening Classes in Zürich
            Weekend Classes in other Swiss locations


            Website: www.taichichuan-wahnam.ch
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            • #7
              Christoph, If there are too many pigeons in the square, and they are making a mess, there is no need to shoot them or poison them, or try to trap them..

              No need to hate them or judge them,or resent them....wishing them gone will only lead to a headache....make it a mandate NOT TO FEED THEM....and this isn't even a doing, its a

              not-doing...Don't worry about them , just don't feed them..... There is no how here.......cease

              Warmly Gusty

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you all for your wonderful and generous responses, these are really nice.

                Yes I attended an Intensive Course in 2015, and wrote a post about intellectualising shortly after it as well.

                I do not have access to regular chi gong classes but will do my best to see if I can travel to do this. I have attended 1 intensive chi kung course and 2 regional courses with Sifu. Although to be honest, I think my past immature self believed that they were more like a magic wand where I didn't have to make much effort but would just let Sifu do it.

                And please help me understand, you say that I now have the skill to stop intellectualizing from Sifu. Is this actually the case though, when I couldn't even do it at the time?

                All other things, like stopping thoughts, letting thoughts come and go, seem just foreign to me, but I will try to make them work.

                I am not trying to be deliberately stubborn. But night and day, all the time I rev my mind at first gear at the highest revs possible. I will reread the previous responses in addition to these and see if there is anything I have missed.


                Hey Chris,
                I just want to confirm something. I think that we may have had a few session when I was living in Australia around 2010/11, we met in a park at one point.
                Hi Mark,

                No I don't think so. As a fellow Brit, I think I would have remembered meeting you!


                Thanks for sharing the inspiration Barry

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                • #9
                  also

                  Forgot to mention, I am happy for you to be brutally honest. I just want to do whatever it takes to make my chi kung work.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You are making things complicated. Thinking about how to stop, will not help you. Just do it.

                    Btw did you see Sigung's Q&A January 2017 / Part 3 / Question 4:
                    ( http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans17a/jan17-3.html )

                    Thoughts come to my mind all the time. How do I clear my mind of all thoughts?

                    — Alexei, Russia

                    Answer

                    Just do it.
                    In other words, if you want to clear your mind of all thoughts, just clear your mind of all thoughts, instead of thinking of how to clear your mind of all thoughts, or why or when or what is it to clear your mind of all thoughts.

                    The same method is applicable in daily life, which will make life more pleasant for you.

                    For example, if you want to find a new job, go for a holiday, or buy a present for your wife, just do it, i.e. find a new job, go for a holiday, or buy a present for your wife.

                    Instead of just doing what they want to do, many people intellectualize, and make themselves stressful. They intellectualise, for example, why they should find a new job, where they should go for a holiday, and how they should buy a present for their wife. They may intellectualize for a long time, but never get to do what they want to do.

                    In principle it is like standing up from the chair you are sitting on. Just do it. Just stand up. But instead of just doing it, i.e. just standing up, you start to intellectualize why you should stand up, how you can stand up, and whether you should stand up or remain sitting on the chair.

                    Best regards
                    Andrea
                    Enjoy some Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan & Qi Gong!

                    Evening Classes in Zürich
                    Weekend Classes in other Swiss locations


                    Website: www.taichichuan-wahnam.ch
                    Facebook: www.facebook.com/Taichichuan.Wahnam.ch

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by christoph View Post

                      I know from experience that there is more to me than my mind, but can't go beyond it or away from it for too long. I am also trying Sifu's thought-stopping method, that he describes in his Q & A series (if you search the Q & A series for intellectualizing, you will find it but I can link it if some want). But again with that, I can't seem to stop the thoughts as they arise, and the whole process becomes stressful in the end.

                      Sorry for this negative post, but I do it because I want to make a positive change, but it really upsets me that I can't seem to do this simple thing.

                      Kind regards
                      Chris.
                      Hey Chris,

                      no need to feel sorry about it! It is very courageous to admit a mistake and ask for help! I think you are doing a great job on improvement!
                      There are already many wonderful answers.
                      Even if you do "stop thinking and go on doing", at the beginning your mind will start intellectualizing again. The habit that will change over time. Just let it grow and bring your mind away from intellectualizing to doing. And relax while doing so.

                      Keep on the good work!
                      Anton
                      Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                      May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                      Anton Schmick
                      Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                      shaolinwahnamchina.com
                      http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                      http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                      http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by christoph View Post
                        It just seems that my mind is always there
                        Welcome to the club of everyone else.


                        Originally posted by christoph View Post
                        I know from experience that there is more to me than my mind
                        You are not your mind.


                        Originally posted by christoph View Post
                        I can't seem to stop the thoughts as they arise
                        Our practice is about relaxation. Rather than fighting your mind just enjoy your practice.

                        Enjoy breathing in and breathing out.

                        Enjoy your body performing the exercises.

                        Enjoy the freedom of you body moving in chi flow.

                        If your mind wants to keep thinking thoughts as you are enjoying your practice smile at it as you would at a child doing silly things and wish it well.

                        Shaolin Kungfu is excellent for stopping intellectualisation - it's hard to intellectualise when your legs are on fire in Horse Riding stance or when there's someone in front if you trying to hit you.


                        Best wishes,

                        George
                        Last edited by George; 22 January 2017, 03:44 PM.
                        George / Юра
                        Shaolin Wahnam England

                        gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello Chris

                          How are you doing? If you are still struggling with this, how about doing a little experiment for 3 days?
                          Whenever you have to do something, just do it. Don't intellectualize.
                          Example: When you want to eat an apple, just eat an apple. Don't start to think about whether it is healthy to eat an apple or whether the red apple tastes better than the green one etc... Just DO it .

                          To be honest I suffered from intellectualizing a lot myself when I was younger. So I know what I am talking about. But I was very lucky. When I worked in a start-up company I had a boss, who kept telling me "Just do it" whenever I was hesitating and overthinking things. It really changed my life. As I started to apply his advice I stopped running in intellectual circles, was able to make decisions quickly and effectively, communicate clearly and enjoyed my life more.

                          So why don't you just give it a try - these 3 days might change your life

                          Best regards
                          Andrea
                          Enjoy some Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan & Qi Gong!

                          Evening Classes in Zürich
                          Weekend Classes in other Swiss locations


                          Website: www.taichichuan-wahnam.ch
                          Facebook: www.facebook.com/Taichichuan.Wahnam.ch

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just Do It

                            ...then intellectualise later if you like
                            Attached Files
                            Damian Kissey
                            Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
                            www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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                            • #15
                              As a mere student, the following is my thought on the matter.

                              Chris, based upon the way you describe your problem, it sounds like worry is the real problem, not intellectualizing. In your place, I would keep the beginning (relax smile from the heart) and standing meditation short, and use dynamic exercise plus qi flow to override the unnecessary thoughts with movement. Eventually, with practice, you'll be able to keep the mind free even when doing longer standing meditation.

                              Relaxing and not worrying are how you develop the skill of keeping the mind free of thoughts.

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